I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

Men must be so scared to walk home at night with all the man-hating from the OP

Do you think that women don't attack each other? Do you think that women aren't violent? Do you think that women aren't killers? Do you think that you couldn't be hit in a car by a woman? Do you think that you couldn't be insulted by a woman? Do you think that you couldn't get into an abusive relationship with a woman? Do you think that women don't make poor political decisions? Do you think that women can't be angry and aggressive? Do you think that women can be bad parents?

And so on and so on.

I don't understand why you are so riled up Dilberry.

Of course all those things are true. But you are completely missing the point.

This isn't about 'hating every man you meet on principle because he's a man', this is about generic 'men' and the way society and what is called the patriarchy can distort the behaviours and assumptions of even the nicest of men, without them being aware of it.

It's far more subtle. Soapbox has explained it really well above. But I suspect you are not willing to hear.

I think it is you who is not willing to hear how other people view what you call 'the patriarchy' that is the issue.

But if your mind is more enlightened than mine and you have a superior perception of the workings of the universe, then I guess you won't be interested in what I think :)

Just saying, I could use those things as an excuse to hate women and claim that they have a global conspiracy to act like total shits. Except that you would think that was disproportionate and unfair...

Excellent post soapbox.

For me the women I know who have good, decent , truly caring husbands are very few and far between.

I look at people's relationships and think wtf are the women tolerating that?

I also hate the wAy a lot of men tell their young sons not to cry, only girls cry etc etc.

Dilberry, your refusal to accept any sort of gendered trend in violence is making you look really silly.

Around 90% of violent crime, murder and assault is perpetrated by men, globally.

You may read many "women are just as bad" type pieces from MRA type organisations but the facts do not back that up. However much men and women who have high levels of internalised misogyny don't want to believe it, violence (whether micro or macro) is gendered.

The problem with it is that even the good and decent men and truly caring husbands are brought up in the same societal structures.

This isn't just about whether men are wife beaters or rapists. That's quite an extreme application of male privilege.

It's much subtler than that. It's so prevalent that we'd miss most of it during the course of a day.

OP I often feel as you do now - I find it is a cyclical thing. I have had many nasty men in my life who have generally tried to strip away confidence, opportunities and instilled issues that I never had growing up - usually to control and have power. I have seen this pattern with most of my friends as we grew up. Men who can't keep it in their pants, men who are horrendously jealous, angry men, petty men, childish men, men who can't do anything for themselves but want to punish the women who look after them (presumably because they still want the power despite acting like a child)...that goes without saying everything in the news that they do - wars, killings, terrorism, abuse, gun crimes, George Osbourne ( ). It goes on.

Then I spend a day with a family who have got it right. I know about 3 men who are actually great husbands and fathers and who emanate a Corbyn-esque 'goodness'. Then I think that although IMO most men are dicks, there is still a lot of nice ones about. I still don't really want one though . Or maybe that's because the good ones are so hard to find!

But even the decent men are positioned within the prevailing discourse. They can't help but benefit from it. So even if they are not abusive or outwardly entitled, they still benefit from male privilege because that's how our society is structured.

I completely agree it's annoying Soap in fact one divisive thing is talking to these nice men about it - some of them are blissfully ignorant to it and it can become a very defensive conversation. I think I put off this sliver of men because I am quite aware of things that are mine and mine alone now - what I have control of and they can't touch. Some have tried to tell me I have control issues, that I am a cold fish or that I have been on my own too long to share - in reality I am just not in my 20's and willing to have my hard won life raked over for good pickings. The interesting thing about that is that if men do it they aren't called any of those things, but probably are held in higher esteem for being practical and sensible with money/time etc.

Absolutely, Jeffrey.

The reason why I don't like it is because it's prejudice. You can pat yourselves on the back and congratulate yourselves for it, but outside of your little gang, it's you that looks bad, not me.

Funny that after Brexit immigration was highest priority for leavers. Much research concludes that those voting because of immigration were less likely to have actually encountered it.

This actually affects a large proportion of our population and there is little chance of avoiding misogyny. Yet you think that noticing it and acting to protect ourselves accordingly is "prejudiced"

Are you a man by any chance dilberry or just part of the #notallmen brigade?

It's cognitive dissonance or denial when a valid point of view or opinion is at complete odds with an individual's deeply held view of the world.

Dilberry But it isn't prejudiced to recognise and label a societal power imbalance.

As I explained, patriarchy and misogyny impacts negatively on both men and women. But it benefits only men.

So in addition to all the things I posted above (which I notice you haven't had much to say about).

It's what meant that men's feelings and wishes were dismissed in family courts for so long. (children are women's work)

It's what means that sometimes men find it difficult to get time off work to care for sick children or see them in school assemblies etc because of, "why isn't your wife doing it?" attitudes. When, actually, the man might have wanted to.

It's why, until very recently, paternity leave was limited to 2 weeks on a much reduced income. My ex didn't take it. he took compassionate leave (premature EMCS) and a week of AL because paternity leave was only £100 a week. Unlike women's maternity leave.

It's what means that a lot of men have difficulty expressing themselves or processing their emotions without resorting to anger and violence. Their full range of emotions is denied at such as young age for not being 'manly' enough and the only emotions that are acknowledged are 'negative' ones. (Disclaimer: no emotions are negative, but you know what I mean). I don't know, perhaps if we allowed boys to cry, then we wouldn't have a culture of emotionally illiterate men whose only outlet for painful emotions is violence.

It means that whenever a boy is not a 'typical boy', they are picked on and bullied at school in a way that girls who are not 'typical girls' are not picked on. In the way that being a Tomboy is seen as a good thing, but being the male equivalent (for which there is no neutral label that I can think of) isn't.

It means that whenever a boy was interviewed on breakfast television for being the next lead in Billy Elliott, the presenters felt the need to say, "so you like ballet, but I mean, you still like football too, don't you? Which team do you support?" Thus ensuring that he is still a Real Boy even though he likes something 'girly'.

It means that boys who don't like football are treated as social pariahs and viewed with suspicion in some circles.

So would you like to tell me who I am prejudiced against?

I'll say it again, patriarchy and misogyny benefit only men, but they harm both men and women.

It means that men, in general, bottle things up rather than seeking the support of their peers when they are going through tough times. This means they turn to things like alcohol and drugs to deal with it instead.

Suicide is the biggest cause of death of young men because they feel the pressure put upon them to be a certain way; to act a certain way; to have a certain lifestyle; and, yes, to look a certain way. But there are few avenues of support for them, because men are tough and men aren't emotional like women and men don't need that sort of thing. Men 'man up', they 'grow some' and then they hide away and try to deal with it on their own. Or they go out and get drunk and get into a fight.

Or their girlfriend/wife asks them once too often if they're sure they're ok because there is something clearly not right. And, rather than sitting down and talking to her and telling her and trusting her with their vulnerability, they lose it. And all they were doing was trying to keep their redundancy from her so as to protect her and not to worry her... and it was her fault for pushing it... (my exh did this)

Misogyny and the patriarchy harms all.

More great posts LetMeJustStepOnMySoapbox. As someone whose brain is a bit rusty they really help make sense of things.

I just wonder how necessary the Relationships board in general would be if men were brought up to acknowledge, process and talk about their feelings.

I read a thread on here a while ago where a woman was asking about this man she'd been on a few dates with because he'd admitted to something that she considered 'girly' and she wanted a real man. I forget what it was now, but it was something along the lines of crying at a film or baking cakes or something.

That's not because she hated men. That's because she'd been brought up in a society that hated women and derided everything that had become associated with being a woman.

Really sad.

Of course. Because I don't agree with you, I must be a man.

Another consistent trope.

And evidence again of your prejudice.

You can pat yourselves on the back and congratulate yourselves for it, but outside of your little gang, it's you that looks bad, not me.

/Irony.

I get it, OP.

I don't think all men are bad. You clearly don't either, OP, on an intellectual level.

But I wonder if those here who are shocked and appalled by the OP realise just how much men hate women?

Is it men who hate women or is it some men who hate women? Which is it?

You jump immediately from saying you understand men are not like this to saying all men are like this.

And great post from Soapbox. Very well said.