I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

You read all I have written and conclude THAT!!

Are you twelve??!

That's an insult to 12 year olds , my son of that age has more insight , empathy and listening skills than some people on this thread .

Not quite so - you are very patient and have done your best to explain . But some people have their fingers in their ears and are shouting " la la la " . The arrogance is astounding .

It wasn't a conclusion, it was a summary. I'm surprised you don''t understand the difference. Actually, no, I'm not.

Kr1stina, your 12 year old son sounds lovely. What a shame that if NotQuiteSoOnEdge met him she would automatically be deeply suspicious of him, based on her own bad experiences with men. Indeed, he would be considered a potential abuser, wife-beater, rapist and general all-round sexist. That, after all, is 'the nature of men', to use her own words.

Indeed, I'm not really sure why you think she is on your side. Perhaps you haven't understood her posts, or perhaps you just have a really low opinion of your own son.

What an odd thing to say twibble

I have understood her posts

It's not about my son

It's not about any individual man

It's not about sides

Aftre what Not Quite so has posted about her own life, your comments are unkind

NotQuite, I really am sorry that you have experienced that. I have experienced some of the same, and I understand that you feel safer to feel this way. It's easier to prevent it happening again if you know the cause, right? But the key here is not that they were men. It's that you, and me, were unlucky.

Kr1stina, you know, I went to bed last night thinking that the comment about 'sides' was a stupid one, so yes, you're right, I apologise for that.

NQSOE has clearly had a terrible time at the hands of some men, and to her even though she thinks I'm twelve ( i wish). Her dislike of men is understandable and I was heartless to ignore it. That's late night posts for you.

But the key thing, in my opinion, is that it IS about individual men. That's because men don't exist as a a group, any more than women do or black people do or Christians do. I have less in common with Boris Johnson than I do with a million women. Our shared gender is irrelevant. If you hate men as a group, you are hating individual men because groups consist of individuals.

More men than women are violent and abusive. But they are individuals. You cannot extrapolate to men as a whole any more than you can say that Myra Hindley or Rose West or Joanna Dennehy are indicative of some vileness within womens' nature. They don't represent the 'nature of women' any more than Peter Sutcliffe represents 'the nature of men'.

I hate the thought of OP's two year old or your twelve year old having the weight of other mens' misdeeds on their shoulders. It isn't right and it isn't fair.

That would seem to imply it's sexist of me to make sure I don't get drunk when out and about, to ensure I stay with a group and don't walk home alone, to guard my drink so it doesn't get spiked, to not invite someone I've just met to my house. The Police advise all this.

No it does not imply that and no I do not think that.

I'm not going to dispute your figures, as I know about them, but they are not the whole picture. What is left out are the figures for all the male-on-male violence. Be you man or woman, the most likely source of danger to you is another man.

Yes I did not mention male on male violence and of course you are right. As a male between 25-40 I am much more likely to experience male violence than you, and I have. The vast majority of violence is male and is against other males.

But hey, lets get hung up on the vastly smaller and less impactful amount of violence meted out by females, because no one has ever tried to derail a thread about the male propensity to violence like that before. Oh wait...

I don't see how mentioning female on male violence in the context of a discussion about the role of socialisation in leading to violent tendencies is 'derailing the thread' but I understand that you don't want to discuss it. I don't think your dismissal of 800,000 victims of female violence as 'less impactful' does you much credit to be honest. Surely we can acknowledge that there is a real problem with male violence whilst ALSO recognising that violence is not purely a gender issue?

If I thought you were seriously listening and engaging with me I would continue talking, but it's become clear to me you are only interested in proving me wrong.

No, I'm not just interested in proving you wrong and I'm sad that you feel that way. You've obviously had a shit time and I'm genuinely sorry for that. If you want to be 'wary' of men then go for it if that makes you happy and safe. I'll bow out now and wish you the best.

When in doubt, employ the ad homini. When an argument is floundering in a sea of self righteousness, the ad homini is worth a go is it not?

Despite her experiences NotQuite is clearly more than capable of discussion the issues, and can hopefully rise above this thread. But is it really fair play to turn this into a discussion about NotQuite herself?

Er...or what pallasathena said.

pallasathena, it's a little hypocritical to suggest that no one has made any comments to impugne the character of those calling sexism as proof that we can't possibly have a point. It's been personal attacks ahoy on the defence side.

Well ive had some terrible experiences. One of my exes tried to kill me by cutting my throat with a kitchen utensil but i still dont hate men!!!
I think the key is to keep in mind that just like you they are all people however also like you they are subjected to ridiculous societal standards that sometimes cause them to behave in really shitty ways. I tend to think of masculinity as a seperate from men the people. Concepts and expectations of masculinity can do terrible things to people. Try and channel your anger and fear against negative examples of masculinity rather than against men the people. xx

And your point is?

Its sad when you see guys that have been brought up in this terrible atmosphere where they have never learned any language to express their emotions in a healthy manner and even if they had they would not be encouraged to do that as it would be seen as weak and feminine so instead they are trapped in this world where they are really angry but not quite sure why and unable to express it in any way other than punching the living daylights out of people. They feel empty and disconnected but are unable to explain or express why and instead just shag as many people as will give them the time of day because thats held up to them as the path to happiness but it instead makes them feel more empty and more angry.
I think the best thing you can do about it is make sure that your son grows up to see that talking about his feelings is not silly its really a sign of strength. That violence isnt really a sign of superiority. To view women as complex people and connect with them as such rather than just mindlessly banging those that are conventionally attractive with no thought to who they are or weather they are right for him. xxx

I just made it, didn't I?

It's sad to see a thread with so much animosity on both sides. I've found myself nodding along with some posts but then they just seem gone off to an extreme. I think there is probably a wide swathe of middle ground that most people would agree on. (e.g. patriarchy exists and negatively effects all people, but women to a larger degree and more negatively; people of both sexes can be violent, but men account for a much larger proportion etc).

The disagreement seems mainly on how we should try to address this, and conduct ourselves. I think the people who are screaming "This thread is sexist!" should acknowledge that someone's experience is bound to affect how they view things. It is not sexist, at all, to be 'wary of men' after numerous bad experiences with men. You can argue all you like about whether it is a rational attitude to take, and look at statistics, but it is hurtful and rude to diminish what someone has been through like we've seen on this thread.

From way up thread:
"Those who aren't part of the solution are part of the problem, and as a matter of fact, most choose to be part of the problem."
I'm looking around my office which is all male (male dominated industry, and the one woman who has been here a few years is out at the moment). I've been here over 10 years and know most of them pretty well. Obviously I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and they might be complete twats in private. But I can honestly say that I have never heard people talk negatively about women here. Never any discussion about whether employing a woman who might get pregnant within the next few years would be OK, or if they should give the job to a man instead. I haven't noticed someone getting off the phone after a difficult call and labeling the woman 'hysterical' or 'it must be the time of the month'. From what I can see my colleagues are good fathers and seem to contribute equally to family life. I'm not aware of any affairs going on. I know full well that all of these things do happen, and a significant proportion of men are misogynistic. But not most. That's not the reality I see.

But then again, I was chatting to a friend the other night who seemed to be of the opinion that sexism was pretty much sorted now that women had equal rights... Is he part of the problem (despite obviously being completely wrong)? I'm not sure. He doesn't put women down, isn't controlling or have expectations of female or male roles. Just a bit worrying that he's pretty uneducated about something so important.

Did anyone see First Dates from the other night, with Preston (him from Big Brother)? At one point in his date they got onto something like who should take the lead in a relationship. He was very much of the opinion that it should all be equal, which was a massive turn off for his date, who wanted a 'manly' man. The lessons that men (and women) get about how they should behave come from both sexes.

Sorry that turned into an essay.

What's that - I've never heard anyone making a racist comment in my office. But that doesn't mean there's no racism in the country .

And I don't think it gives me the right to go up to black people and tell them they are are bigotted for saying they have experienced racism in their lives.

And if I went onto a forum for black people and read about their experinces, I wouldn't chip in with

Well not all white people are the same
Why are you ignoring black on black racism ?
Black peope are just as bad
So you hate me / my kids because I'm white then ?
You are just imagining it
It's because of social economic factors and therefore isn't real
Why are you tarring us all with the same brush ?
It's because white people haven't learned to express their emotions
We've been socialised that way we can't help us, feel sorry for us

I hope I would shut up and listen . Becaue I might Learn something . And because thats the appropriate behaviours for a privileged person in a minority space ( men on Mumsnet take note ) .

If I said anything it woud probably be along the lines of

" I'm so sorry . How can I learn to be part of the solution and not part of the problem ? How can we work together to make a society where these things don't happen ? "

BTW what's that - you might like to think about what your industry is " male dominated ".

What exactly should I be thinking about my industry Kr1stina? I'm well aware that it is male dominated because of patriarchy and 'traditional' gender roles. And that the industry loses a massive amount of talent because of this.

And thank you very much I have learnt a lot from this forum. It has challenged me in many ways. But it also by its very nature is going to end up with lots of women who have been hurt by men. It is not denying their reality to question whether it is representive of society in general.