You cannot communicate with batshit

[Pingpang]

Following on from a recent thread regarding those who are NC/LC with family members.

Welcome to the good ship Narcymcnarcface! The bar is stocked and there's a seat for everyone. Shuffleboard starts in 20 mins.

[Kr1stina]

Thnaks for the pastries and coffee

Ememem - I'm pleased to hear that you and your H are now dealing with MIL together.

IME couples MUST only deal with toxic IL / parenst this way . If you want to save your marriage that is . They love nothing more than destroying their child's marriage - it's proves that their child can't manage without them and that they are in control . Also that their child is fundementally bad and no one else will want them .

They delight in coming between a couple and doing their nasty stuff. You need to do all phone calls and all meetings together .

[toriap2]

I don't know if what I am experiencing is batshit or not, so if not, please twll me and I will leave. My husband died suddenly in December and since then I seem to have realised just how unsupportive my family are. No one ever phones or texts to see how we are doing. If I complain, I am told that it is up to me to contact them, as I should know by now they are not good with emotional stuff. I am not bothered so much for me but the thought of DD getting hurt kills me. Her birthday was in February and not one of them sent a card or present or even a text to see how she was coping. On fathers day, a very very hard day for her, not one of my family asked how she was coping or if they could do anything. The only text was off my mum asking if I had remembered to send my dad a card. I spent the weeks leading up to the day coping with a distraught teenager, and the day itself just holding her while she sobbed. Of course I didnt send a card! I phoned him to explain why and to be fair, he was fine with it. I don't know if this is normal or I am expecting too much.

[Fuzzywuzzywasabear]

toriap sorry for your loss, it sounds like you've been through a tough time

[toomuchtooold]

toria . So sorry for your loss.

It doesn't sound normal to me, your family, it sounds very cold, and I notice that they have double standards - they didn't send your DD a present for her birthday but they expect you to send your dad a father's day card?

When you're going through hard times people always say you need your family around you but if your family only take from you emotionally and don't give, then they're no help. Poor you, you have to cope with the death of your husband, and your DD's grief, and on top you have a family who are not caring for you. I think you are definitely not expecting too much, and I really hope you have other, good people in your life.

And you're very welcome on the good ship (what are we calling it again? BatShit McBatface?) - I'll do you all a round of toast and ? I can run to some of DH's posh coffee if any of you like, I just always wish it tasted as good as it smells!

The referendum is killing us. DH and I are from two different European countries and we live in a third. I would say about half our friends are in relationships with people from other EU countries than themselves, and it's just very fucking depressing thinking that all the opportunities we came to take for granted are now in danger of being taken away.

I've also found it really hard listening to the Leave campaign because that combination of populism and fucking lying reminds me hard of my mother's gaslighting. I've felt quite despairing at times, you know like I could pull up half a dozen of my posts from before the referendum and everything I said would happen has happened, I wasn't stupid, I know a fair bit about it, and there were people just ignoring the whole argument and taking the piss. In the end I had to kind of step away for a while, I really believe it's important to engage with people you don't agree with and I actually went and looked up some of the sensible Leave people, economists and so, to understand the Leave rationale (which IMO makes some sense, but like 20 years down the line, after a lot of pain) ... but it can be a fine line I think for someone like me, between trying to be fair and then going down into those kind of obsessive checking and second guessing that I tend to do under stress or when being played by a narcissist. Doubting my own reality (which is a useful skill, sometimes) to a point beyond that which is healthy, and doing it in an argument with people who are not prepared to let the tiniest fact penetrate their armour. But when that happens I need to just disengage, but I need to still remember that not everyone is like that, that there are people who can be on the other side and argue and be convinced.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

ToriaP - am shocked, saddened and actually horrified at your lack of family support, and their casual coldness and cruelty, not just to you but to your DD as well. Unbelievable. I can't, just can't, get over the fact that they think it's ok to ignore your bereaved DD's birthday and the fact that she'd be missing her own Dad on Father's Day, and have a pop at you for not sending your Dad a card. Breathtaking hypocrisy.

Have some , , and whatever else you need.
Welcome aboard - you'll fit right in on here, sadly (not for us, but for you because this is a club that no one wants to be a part of)

So very sorry for your loss - how are you holding up? Do you have friends who help out, or is it just you and your DD working through it together? (((hugs))) for both of you anyway, what a dreadful shock you must have had. :(

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Toomuch - sorry for the pain you're going through too. Even though I'm not living in the UK, I'm still in pain every day from realising what a horrible situation is going on back in the UK, and how fucking horrible so many people have turned out to be!
Luckily for me, I haven't got any overt Leavers on my FB and none in RL because I'm not in the country, so I don't get what you are getting unless I go looking for it on political or media pages - which I avoid. So very sorry that it's not only triggering for you, but that your own situation is so uncertain now.
Have some and yourself.

[toomuchtooold]

Cheers thumb . We're actually OK (for now) as I picked up Swiss nationality from DH and they are still in the EEA (they voted to limit free movement 2 years ago but nothing has happened, as yet, and we're hoping it will just quietly go away).
I'm glad you replied though as I was worried I'd stepped over a line by posting political stuff on here, but it was the nature of the campaign rather than the subject itself that kicked me off so I hoped it would be OK!
I've also actually got no Leavers that I know of in my circle - although I suspect I've been defriended by a few people on FB. Can't quite remember!

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

No, completely understood the trigger aspect of it - exactly what you said, the sort of "but we didn't say that and even if we did then we didn't mean it the way you've taken it, even if that's exactly what it sounds like; oh you're too sensitive and we weren't talking about you anyway" type of bollocks.

As an aside, wonder what Plasticine posted?

[WhoKnewReally]

Popping on to say thanks to all those on this thread who have supported me (under my old name on separate relationships threads - sorry to be vague).

We are now NC with my DF his behaviour untenable after a year of trying to reason with him (after much bullying and threats from him against my DH and later me which we had ridden out together) and latest batshit trying to isolate DH out of a family meeting I tried to arrange for DC who is missing Grandad. (DS age 7 asked me yesterday 'how many more days will Grandad live for - just so I know how long he has to join in again')

I am devastated but now fully aware that my fantasy extended family does not and can not exist. Working on normalising mine DH and DCs expectations to a different reality.

I finally accepted that the Toxic Parents book might be useful to me and read it and realised that as DF was always at work and I had little contact with him till I went to work for him at 18 (HUGE mistake) that my DM had really created a 'mostly' non-toxic environment for me to grow un in and I was largely unprepared for his toxicity but in fact had witnessed her enabling enough to be trained to act similarly. I had also been massively triangulated by DF against siblings most of my life, though I had been in the position of golden child.

I am satisfied that I have done everything reasonable to try to keep the family communicating and this has failed due to DF's campaign of supremacy which is a well trodden path. Siblings now shunning any contact from me because I refuse to have DH excluded (have given up as due to a lifetime of triangulation there is little relationship there anyway) cousins now telling me they have been advised my lovely DH is a fault .

DM is coming to stay the weekend. This is a challenge because she is abused and controlled and tends to enable for an easy life. She is going to be re-advised of the situation from our perspective and asked not to bring batshit here in any form. I hope she can do it or I will likely loose contact with her too.

Sadly I keep going to pieces. I am depressed and compulsive eating my coping mechanism has cost me a gain of 2 stone already. I have to get better coping strategies.

Dh and I have established that I am emotionally numb to my own point of view/feelings a lot of the time and food is a coping strategy that I have built my whole life. It takes me such a long time to work out how I feel about stuff and I have to 'logic' it out there is rarely a gut reaction. I have had some support from an abuse helpline who give a simple and consistent reasonable stance and help me stay strong. May look for counselling.

Oh that has turned in to a me me me sorry.

I hope to be able to pop in and support anyone going through similar form time to time like you have supported me.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Good luck WhoKnew - I suspect your mother might be on a bit of a "flying monkey" mission, but hopefully will back off if you tell her that it's a done deal and no going back.
Re. the compulsive eating to replace emotions thing - have you had any counselling? There are some types that can help you re-direct your behaviours so that you find a different way to deal with things instead.

for you x

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

Hi, just read this and thought of this thread:
www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jul/02/ariel-leve-i-had-to-write-this-book-in-order-to-be-free?CMP=fb_gu

[Birdandsparrow]

Fascinating article, many echoes there for a lot of us I expect. Poor Ariel.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Poor Ariel indeed. Her mother probably did think, in her totally self-absorbed fashion, that she was giving her daughter a wonderfully exotic childhood - but all she was doing was creating chaos and uncertainty, and exposing her to the very strong risk of serious abuse by others :(

Glad she's feeling the release after having written it.

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

The article's author still seems to feel that the mother is as much a victim as the child though

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Often the way when confronted with the idea that a mother can be abusive. So many people can't get their heads around it, because it didn't happen to them or anyone they know/knew, so how can that be? Surely, as her mother, she only meant to do her best for her child? Surely, as her mother, she loved her really? Surely, as her mother, she would have been looking out for her despite her own failings?

Nope. But it's part of the general narrative to make excuses for abusive women, because it's just so alien to think that mothers could be like that. UNless you had one like that, of course.

I expect there were background reasons why Leve's mother was like that; but as has been said time and again - other people have abusive backgrounds and manage NOT to abuse their own children, it's not really a good enough excuse. :(

[toomuchtooold]

Just read the article. My god, the mother's responses were textbook, weren't they? Trying to leverage the story into getting the daughter back in contact, minimising and denying the abuse, then claiming credit for the structure of the book - that was the best bit.

I've downloaded the book on kindle - I'm always fascinated by other people's accounts, I find it validating and it also helps me to remember my own childhood. But as usual it's an account of an exhibitionist type - I'd really like to read about a covert narcissist. I have actually started a first draft of a fantasy book based on a child of a covert narcissist. I have a few months of free time so I can see if I can make anything of it.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Interesting! just looked up "covert narc" to see what the definition and signs are - and realised that lots of the threads on here about "my best friend of many years won't help me out now I'm in trouble" are talking about covert narcs! "oh but they're so lovely, they do XYZ for me but now I've got this going on, they're being really distant" - ha, I see it now. XYZ feeds the narc, lets them feel good about themselves without putting them out too much - but when the OP ceases to be a useful "supply", then the narc backs off at speed. Guess I'll be suggesting that such OPs dump their friends much quicker now!

Toomuch - I think you'd find more books about covert narc friends than mothers, from what I was reading (here) but it would be interesting to see how you go with your own project.

[Birdandsparrow]

Has anyone read The Rain Before it Falls by Jonathon Coe? That's a very good novel with a narc as a central character.

[Buddy198]

Hi everyone, can anyone offer any advice please or just hand hold? Dm often likes to play this game where if I either do something that displeases her or if I'm busy when she calls so don't pick up the phone - she then goes into a sulk and has told me she does this with my brother as well, "right that's not it I'm not gong to bother seeing him / you or phone you until you contact me now". And she really sticks to it. I know she'll be sitting there for days, a week or in my brothers case where he's further away, 3 weeks, til one of us finally caves and calls her.

This time it's been the longest ever, 2 weeks silence since I said I couldn't come back out to the village fair that we'd just got home from, it was raining so we didn't stay long, my parents were going to see us down there but then they decided to stop off at the supermarket first! So I called a few times to say it was raining and we'd be gong home soon but neither of my parents picked up their mobiles. Then I get a call the minute we step in the door and she wants us to go out again to meet them as they've now arrived! I said we couldn't really, we were all wet and that was it, she was very curt / annoyed and saying "how disappointed I can't see my granddaughter now", but she never makes any effort to see her anyway!

So it's been 2 weeks side her strop and sulk over this, I really don't want to cave and phone her and pretend everything is ok, I have to fake this act of being normal towards her which makes me cringe and I find exhausting whenever I see or speak to her. But my 5 yr old dd is saying she misses her grandma and grandpa and asking me when we can go see them and why doesn't grandma phone her like her nanny does (my mil phones her every Saturday morning as she lives a few hours away so we don't see her v often).

Dd is at an age now where she kind of understands when something isn't really right and I don't want her to get caught up in it, for her sake and my dad's I have as low contact as poss with my mother, otherwise I would probably be no contact. So do I just bite the bullet in these situations and phone dm and act normal for my daughter's sake, arrange a visit and make dd happy? My mum knew we had an important hospital appointment for dd last week and she never bothered to call to see how it went, why is she punishing poor dd as well now? I've even considered writing my parents number down and telling dd she can call them for a chat whenever she wants, she know how to use the home phone just needs to see their number written down. That way I don't have to speak to dm myself and keep getting into these situations. I can't cut contact for my daughter and my dad's sakes, I usually suck the "punishment" sulking up and end up phoning to arrange a visit for dd, how else could I deal with this, should I schedule a time each week for dd to phone her? Or visit? I hate seeing my little girl upset, she can't understand why grandma goes off with no contact for weeks regularly 🙁

[toomuchtooold]

Thumb that article is my mother to a T. I think the really crazy-making thing for me anyway was the fact that with a covert one it's possible for nobody ever to realise what's wrong. I think the only people I know who've seen my mother for what she is are my dad (died a few years ago) my first boyfriend, and my DH. And even then she kept the worst of her nastiness till when we were alone. Sometimes (and I'm aware how awful this is!) I wish she could have been the exhibitionist/borderline type and I'd have stories of her getting the police called on her at 4 in the morning or turning up drunk to parents' evening or something - at least there would be something to point to, and there would also have been the freedom of maybe being able to move in with a family member/have social services support. But as it was, everyone thought she was this saintly mother. Being gaslit for so long made me value truth so much that I ended up training as a scientist and working as a statistician/fact checker. DH was the same, you just get tired the whole time of having to listen to this "my house, my truth" bullshit.

I hadn't thought about that with those friend threads but I think you're right. I had a narc acquaintance who did this the whole time, and would also volunteer for stuff and then palm off the actual work onto other people citing stress. It was knackering!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Buddy

Your parents have abjectly failed you here and your mother is out and out abusive. Her actions are about power and control over you both; her silences are never about being silent. Your Dad is also playing out a role here; that of a weak bystander who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has seemingly done nothing here to rein in his wife's excesses of behaviour. DO not play the game any more.

Re your DD young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favour. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mummy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your DD doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

[Kr1stina]

if your mother is abusve to you on the phone, why on earth woudl you let your daughter phone her at all, let alone without your supervision ?

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Buddy - I do totally understand why you would consider fostering the relationship between your mother and your DD, but think harder about it - what if your DD phones your mother and she refuses to talk to her because she's still sulking with you? What if she uses your DD's upset to continue punishing you? From what you've already said, it seems that this is a very likely scenario, she doesn't have any compunction at all about hurting anyone so long as she gets her way.

So I agree with Attila - try and phase your mother out of your DD's life, because even if she hasn't already started her shit with your DD, she soon will. So - short term pain, long term gain - a far better option than short-term gain, long term pain.

for you - it's a horrible situation but oh-so-familiar to so many on this thread :(

Toomuch - reading your post, I was reminded of Georgette Heyer - many of her "mother" characters fit the narc profile, and at least one that I can think of is a covert narc! But of course they are peripheral characters, and their children usually manage to win through despite them, so not really the sort of book you're after, I wouldn't think.

[Buddy198]

Thanks for the replies, sorry I didn't explain very well but she so far has never been openly toxic like that to dd, in a way I wish she was because I'd then have no hesitation in cutting all contact. If dd called her she'd happily chat to her and act normal, it's me she hates! She gushes over dd but only when it suits her selfish ways to engage, the rest of the time she is either ignoring us with her controlling silent periods, or is playing the victim all woe to is me, nobody loves me apart from my granddaughter. She's 5, to her when Grandma is interested and buys her sweets or invites her for tea she thinks she's the best ever, then gets upset when she goes silent. She absolutely adores my dad, he comes over twice a week to take her to school for me and they have the sweetest bond, she'd be devestated to lose him from her life and so would I. This is how twisted the situation is though, my mother has managed to keep so much of the abuse under the radar, usually on a one to one basis so even my dad isn't aware of how bad it really is and what goes on, I've seriously started to considering conversations as proof. Dh is the only person who knows everything and he's heard for himself some of the phone conversations because I've put speaker phone on.

I also have a brother and want dd to have contact with her cousins, she adores them and is an an only child so I worry when me and dh are gone one day she'll need the only family she'll have left, I can't have any more children and I hate the thought of her losing touch with her cousins. There's no way my brother would be brave enough to go no contact with her as well, and even if he was she has always made him the golden child so he hasn't been treated the way I have, he knows she is controlling and pretty batshit but she has always kept the ea to me as private as possible, he wouldn't understand because he doesn't know the full story.

As well as this, I live 10 mins drive from my parents in a village where everyone knows each other, and every day I bump into acquaintances of my parents, if I went no contact she would play the innocent victim and I would be seen as the crazy or evil daughter, stopping an old lady (well 75) from seeing me and her grandchild. I would bump into my mother at some point 😳 I can't cut contact really without moving away, maybe when my daughter gets to secondary school age in 5 years we could do it. The thought of that is lovely, today I went to the supermarket and felt sick in case I bumped into her, yes I would definitely love to move away, I feel a weight has lifted just realising I could do that in the future!!