You cannot communicate with batshit

[Pingpang]

Following on from a recent thread regarding those who are NC/LC with family members.

Welcome to the good ship Narcymcnarcface! The bar is stocked and there's a seat for everyone. Shuffleboard starts in 20 mins.

[SeaEagleFeather]

Big grats fuzzy! :)

[Hissy]

Huge congratulations fuzzy!

[M0rven]

Wonderful news, congratulations !

I hope Dh is looking after you both .

[Thinkingblonde]

Congratulations on the birth of little Fuzzy, you do exactly that, concentrate on your little one.

[Fuzzywuzzywasabear]

Evening all,

Thread has gone a bit quiet but I thought I'd pop in to say little fuzzy arrived last week, completely perfect

Champagne on the top deck for everyone!

DH rang DM to tell her, she told him she's always there if we want to call and talk to her. DH pointed out that she might like to call me to see how I'm, she said she didn't think it was a good idea to call me as I'd just given birth?!

Her loss! I'm going to concentrate on being the best mummy in the world to my little one

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Toomuch - just had to tell you this - after I wrote about Georgette Heyer often including narc mothers in her books, I happened to start re-reading one of her detective novels, called "Behold, here's poison" and Bingo! Covert narc mother, and actually one of the main players in the book. I had a small chuckle to myself about the timing.

[toomuchtooold]

Oh and btw screenshot if you're still reading this thread - we started watching series 3 of The Bridge and fuuuck the mother makes my blood turn to ice! I have an idea how I would like it to turn out there, but will watch it till the end before saying it...

[toomuchtooold]

YY to everything Atilla says. And I think when they are nice to the grandkids, it's often a way of gaslighting their child - it's like, "look how kind a grandparent I am! I can't have been such a nasty parent as you think. Either you misremembered it or you must have been a really bad kid." Luckily you can often tell it's all bullshit because the nice act doesn't survive more than a couple of days - they're still essentially toddlers, they still need everyone around them to be managing their emotions for them and when there's small kids around that just doesn't happen. My mother used to manage maybe 2-3 days and then she would be getting sick of it so she'd manufacture an argument and leave in a huff.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Buddy

re your comment:-

"sorry I didn't explain very well but she so far has never been openly toxic like that to dd, in a way I wish she was because I'd then have no hesitation in cutting all contact. If dd called her she'd happily chat to her and act normal, it's me she hates! She gushes over dd but only when it suits her selfish ways to engage, the rest of the time she is either ignoring us with her controlling silent periods, or is playing the victim all woe to is me, nobody loves me apart from my granddaughter. She's 5, to her when Grandma is interested and buys her sweets or invites her for tea she thinks she's the best ever, then gets upset when she goes silent"

Going hot and cold on a 5 year old is a low blow. You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend either, your mother is no different. Your mother is actively trying to buy your DDs affections and your dad enables his wife in these behaviours.

Your mother still hates you but what's tripping you up now is the narcissist's ways of adapting to changing circumstances i.e. you now have a family of your own.They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. This allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up.

Your mother has not fundamentally altered; she is simply now using more sneaky methods and she will continue to use your DD to undermine you and your DH as parents.

Your mother is and will now use different methods. The NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the grandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Narcissistic grandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Narcissistic grandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times they have a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them.

And I still would not let your Dad off the hook here because he is simply acting out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has and continues to enable his wife's behaviours. In a straight fight he would choose her over you, such weak men often need women like your mother to also idolise. I would see if it is now possible for someone else to take her to school on the days you are unable to do this.

Re this comment also:-
"I also have a brother and want dd to have contact with her cousins, she adores them and is an an only child so I worry when me and dh are gone one day she'll need the only family she'll have left, I can't have any more children and I hate the thought of her losing touch with her cousins"

I think you need to look at the reasons behind that mindset a lot more closely. Your brother here is the golden child (itself a role not without price but he does not know that). What if her cousins are infact nasty people who want nothing to do with your DD going forward, they will go their own way and perhaps leave your DD behind particularly if they are a lot older. It will also need your brother's co-operation for his children to see your DD. She won't need her cousins as an adult, she will have friends and family of her own.

You will need to move and I would say sooner rather than later (certainly not in the year or two before she starts secondary school). You need to put physical distance as well as mental distance between you and these disordered people.

[SeaEagleFeather]

I think there's some danger that as her daughter gets older, she might end up going to visit and staying without supervision and then the poison will come out more strongly. It isn't normal to cut off your daughter for weeks at a time for such small things, it really isn't, and I'm not at all sure the Grandma can be trusted to know what is healthy behaviour and what isn't.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Buddy - I think your idea was a good one then, to write your parents phone number down and let your DD phone them herself. But try to get your DD to do it on speakerphone as well, so you can monitor what Grandma is saying to her - even if she's being all sweetness and light to your DD, there may be some snidey comments in there about "nasty mean Mummy" which you need to know about so you can deflect any potential "divide and conquer" bollocks.

Difficult situation for you - hope you can hang out for the next few years until you can move!

[SeaEagleFeather]

She's 5, to her when Grandma is interested and buys her sweets or invites her for tea she thinks she's the best ever, then gets upset when she goes silent

The hot-and-cold treatment towards a 5 yo?

Pretty low.

I would (and have) made the choice to explain that we love Grandpa but that people shouldn't behave in a way that upsets others all the time. If they do, they're being mean and we have to just step back until they're willing to behave better.

Playing games that affect your daughter like this is damaging for her. You're stuck in a very hard place if you want to keep contact with your Dad and bro, but I think you're best off warily keeping some distance. If the silence goes on too long, contact her - but on your terms. Try to step back emotionally from her (easier said than done but it helps). Try if you can not to fall into the trap of feeling pressured and guilty. Also, don't share personal information with her. She doesn't love you unconditionally, she's manipulating you by withdrawing love and she's indifferent to the fact that it's hurting your daughter. I'm afraid your mother may have her nice sides, but her underlying character is less pleasant. She's trying hard to control you.

[Buddy198]

Thanks for the replies, sorry I didn't explain very well but she so far has never been openly toxic like that to dd, in a way I wish she was because I'd then have no hesitation in cutting all contact. If dd called her she'd happily chat to her and act normal, it's me she hates! She gushes over dd but only when it suits her selfish ways to engage, the rest of the time she is either ignoring us with her controlling silent periods, or is playing the victim all woe to is me, nobody loves me apart from my granddaughter. She's 5, to her when Grandma is interested and buys her sweets or invites her for tea she thinks she's the best ever, then gets upset when she goes silent. She absolutely adores my dad, he comes over twice a week to take her to school for me and they have the sweetest bond, she'd be devestated to lose him from her life and so would I. This is how twisted the situation is though, my mother has managed to keep so much of the abuse under the radar, usually on a one to one basis so even my dad isn't aware of how bad it really is and what goes on, I've seriously started to considering conversations as proof. Dh is the only person who knows everything and he's heard for himself some of the phone conversations because I've put speaker phone on.

I also have a brother and want dd to have contact with her cousins, she adores them and is an an only child so I worry when me and dh are gone one day she'll need the only family she'll have left, I can't have any more children and I hate the thought of her losing touch with her cousins. There's no way my brother would be brave enough to go no contact with her as well, and even if he was she has always made him the golden child so he hasn't been treated the way I have, he knows she is controlling and pretty batshit but she has always kept the ea to me as private as possible, he wouldn't understand because he doesn't know the full story.

As well as this, I live 10 mins drive from my parents in a village where everyone knows each other, and every day I bump into acquaintances of my parents, if I went no contact she would play the innocent victim and I would be seen as the crazy or evil daughter, stopping an old lady (well 75) from seeing me and her grandchild. I would bump into my mother at some point 😳 I can't cut contact really without moving away, maybe when my daughter gets to secondary school age in 5 years we could do it. The thought of that is lovely, today I went to the supermarket and felt sick in case I bumped into her, yes I would definitely love to move away, I feel a weight has lifted just realising I could do that in the future!!

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Buddy - I do totally understand why you would consider fostering the relationship between your mother and your DD, but think harder about it - what if your DD phones your mother and she refuses to talk to her because she's still sulking with you? What if she uses your DD's upset to continue punishing you? From what you've already said, it seems that this is a very likely scenario, she doesn't have any compunction at all about hurting anyone so long as she gets her way.

So I agree with Attila - try and phase your mother out of your DD's life, because even if she hasn't already started her shit with your DD, she soon will. So - short term pain, long term gain - a far better option than short-term gain, long term pain.

for you - it's a horrible situation but oh-so-familiar to so many on this thread :(

Toomuch - reading your post, I was reminded of Georgette Heyer - many of her "mother" characters fit the narc profile, and at least one that I can think of is a covert narc! But of course they are peripheral characters, and their children usually manage to win through despite them, so not really the sort of book you're after, I wouldn't think.

[Kr1stina]

if your mother is abusve to you on the phone, why on earth woudl you let your daughter phone her at all, let alone without your supervision ?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Buddy

Your parents have abjectly failed you here and your mother is out and out abusive. Her actions are about power and control over you both; her silences are never about being silent. Your Dad is also playing out a role here; that of a weak bystander who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has seemingly done nothing here to rein in his wife's excesses of behaviour. DO not play the game any more.

Re your DD young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favour. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mummy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your DD doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

[toomuchtooold]

Thumb that article is my mother to a T. I think the really crazy-making thing for me anyway was the fact that with a covert one it's possible for nobody ever to realise what's wrong. I think the only people I know who've seen my mother for what she is are my dad (died a few years ago) my first boyfriend, and my DH. And even then she kept the worst of her nastiness till when we were alone. Sometimes (and I'm aware how awful this is!) I wish she could have been the exhibitionist/borderline type and I'd have stories of her getting the police called on her at 4 in the morning or turning up drunk to parents' evening or something - at least there would be something to point to, and there would also have been the freedom of maybe being able to move in with a family member/have social services support. But as it was, everyone thought she was this saintly mother. Being gaslit for so long made me value truth so much that I ended up training as a scientist and working as a statistician/fact checker. DH was the same, you just get tired the whole time of having to listen to this "my house, my truth" bullshit.

I hadn't thought about that with those friend threads but I think you're right. I had a narc acquaintance who did this the whole time, and would also volunteer for stuff and then palm off the actual work onto other people citing stress. It was knackering!

[Buddy198]

Hi everyone, can anyone offer any advice please or just hand hold? Dm often likes to play this game where if I either do something that displeases her or if I'm busy when she calls so don't pick up the phone - she then goes into a sulk and has told me she does this with my brother as well, "right that's not it I'm not gong to bother seeing him / you or phone you until you contact me now". And she really sticks to it. I know she'll be sitting there for days, a week or in my brothers case where he's further away, 3 weeks, til one of us finally caves and calls her.

This time it's been the longest ever, 2 weeks silence since I said I couldn't come back out to the village fair that we'd just got home from, it was raining so we didn't stay long, my parents were going to see us down there but then they decided to stop off at the supermarket first! So I called a few times to say it was raining and we'd be gong home soon but neither of my parents picked up their mobiles. Then I get a call the minute we step in the door and she wants us to go out again to meet them as they've now arrived! I said we couldn't really, we were all wet and that was it, she was very curt / annoyed and saying "how disappointed I can't see my granddaughter now", but she never makes any effort to see her anyway!

So it's been 2 weeks side her strop and sulk over this, I really don't want to cave and phone her and pretend everything is ok, I have to fake this act of being normal towards her which makes me cringe and I find exhausting whenever I see or speak to her. But my 5 yr old dd is saying she misses her grandma and grandpa and asking me when we can go see them and why doesn't grandma phone her like her nanny does (my mil phones her every Saturday morning as she lives a few hours away so we don't see her v often).

Dd is at an age now where she kind of understands when something isn't really right and I don't want her to get caught up in it, for her sake and my dad's I have as low contact as poss with my mother, otherwise I would probably be no contact. So do I just bite the bullet in these situations and phone dm and act normal for my daughter's sake, arrange a visit and make dd happy? My mum knew we had an important hospital appointment for dd last week and she never bothered to call to see how it went, why is she punishing poor dd as well now? I've even considered writing my parents number down and telling dd she can call them for a chat whenever she wants, she know how to use the home phone just needs to see their number written down. That way I don't have to speak to dm myself and keep getting into these situations. I can't cut contact for my daughter and my dad's sakes, I usually suck the "punishment" sulking up and end up phoning to arrange a visit for dd, how else could I deal with this, should I schedule a time each week for dd to phone her? Or visit? I hate seeing my little girl upset, she can't understand why grandma goes off with no contact for weeks regularly 🙁

[Birdandsparrow]

Has anyone read The Rain Before it Falls by Jonathon Coe? That's a very good novel with a narc as a central character.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Interesting! just looked up "covert narc" to see what the definition and signs are - and realised that lots of the threads on here about "my best friend of many years won't help me out now I'm in trouble" are talking about covert narcs! "oh but they're so lovely, they do XYZ for me but now I've got this going on, they're being really distant" - ha, I see it now. XYZ feeds the narc, lets them feel good about themselves without putting them out too much - but when the OP ceases to be a useful "supply", then the narc backs off at speed. Guess I'll be suggesting that such OPs dump their friends much quicker now!

Toomuch - I think you'd find more books about covert narc friends than mothers, from what I was reading (here) but it would be interesting to see how you go with your own project.

[toomuchtooold]

Just read the article. My god, the mother's responses were textbook, weren't they? Trying to leverage the story into getting the daughter back in contact, minimising and denying the abuse, then claiming credit for the structure of the book - that was the best bit.

I've downloaded the book on kindle - I'm always fascinated by other people's accounts, I find it validating and it also helps me to remember my own childhood. But as usual it's an account of an exhibitionist type - I'd really like to read about a covert narcissist. I have actually started a first draft of a fantasy book based on a child of a covert narcissist. I have a few months of free time so I can see if I can make anything of it.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Often the way when confronted with the idea that a mother can be abusive. So many people can't get their heads around it, because it didn't happen to them or anyone they know/knew, so how can that be? Surely, as her mother, she only meant to do her best for her child? Surely, as her mother, she loved her really? Surely, as her mother, she would have been looking out for her despite her own failings?

Nope. But it's part of the general narrative to make excuses for abusive women, because it's just so alien to think that mothers could be like that. UNless you had one like that, of course.

I expect there were background reasons why Leve's mother was like that; but as has been said time and again - other people have abusive backgrounds and manage NOT to abuse their own children, it's not really a good enough excuse. :(

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

The article's author still seems to feel that the mother is as much a victim as the child though

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Poor Ariel indeed. Her mother probably did think, in her totally self-absorbed fashion, that she was giving her daughter a wonderfully exotic childhood - but all she was doing was creating chaos and uncertainty, and exposing her to the very strong risk of serious abuse by others :(

Glad she's feeling the release after having written it.

[Birdandsparrow]

Fascinating article, many echoes there for a lot of us I expect. Poor Ariel.