You cannot communicate with batshit

[Pingpang]

Following on from a recent thread regarding those who are NC/LC with family members.

Welcome to the good ship Narcymcnarcface! The bar is stocked and there's a seat for everyone. Shuffleboard starts in 20 mins.

Sorry Bacon - my fault again - should have said their behaviour was vile, not that they were.

Wow. The hair thing. I used to have hair down to my bum as a child. My father loved it. My mother hated it, really resented having to brush it and put it in plaits every day. I didn't ask for plaits, thats just what I was given, if it was that bad she could have just stuck it in a ponytail! Anyhow, she took me to the hairdressers one day and had it all cut off, into that horrible bowl/page boy cut. It was nasty! My sister was subjected to the same nasty bowl cut too. My father was very upset. He kept a lock of my hair for years. In fact, I have it now as it was with some of his things after he died.

What is it with these batshit mothers?? My mother's mother was a pretty nasty piece of work, so I could forgive her a bit, but looking at my little girl I could never imagine being such a bitch to her. She has her father's hair, which is very curly, so she'll probably hate it, but I will be as gentle as I can be as I remember how much it hurts!

I've noticed ... people can't get their heads round someone being both a victim and abusive themselves.

This is going to take a long time to resolve with my siblings, if we ever do talk it through in depth. My father was a seriously mad in the head, sadistic cunt. My mother loved him - worshipped him, pretty much - despite his continued and almost constant abuse. She therefore ignored and enabled his abuse of us. She was a lovely mum in some ways, but disengaged in other ways that matter. By my mid-teens (I'm the eldest), she'd started displaying more directly abusive behaviours towards us ... and seemed as unaware of her explosions as she seemed of Dad's.

It was all a big mess. I can describe Mum in terms of a narcissistic woman who abused her children - and have done, with gold-star support from Stately Homers and a good therapist. I needed this, so as to be honest with myself about everything that's happened. Now I'm kind of past that, I see her as somewhat weird and self-deluding. I frame the delusion as a self-preservation mechanism, which harmed me but didn't come from harmful wishes, iyswim. She is/was a basically nice, rather immature person who's been screwed up by abuse.

This makes all the "Your mother's so lovely!" stuff quite tricky to handle - but not as tricky as for those of you whose mothers are seriously not lovely people. I bet we all do the same 'happy smile with sarcastic edges' in response, though

Where can I find the Stately home thread? Have tried searching to no avail....

Thumb - gawd sorry now I feel bad that it's your comments I keep commenting on! She could/can be vile it's just I've only very recently got my head round it myself!

Weirdly I had a friend in my teens that couldn't stand my mother (the only one) commenting 'she loves playing the martyr eh!' I didn't see it at the time - friends family batshit in their own way. That's maybe why they could see it.

As for siblings - my sister is in COMPLETE denial (not the flippant denial in sitcoms the real thing) she has spent time in mh care and THEY could even see the issues (family therapy was part of her treatment) yet both parents are still saints in her eyes - yes even the violent alcoholic father 'because alcoholism is an illness, plus he grew up with it so he couldn't help it he didn't know any better' puhlease! Major incidents she's completely blanked.

Toria - I think this is still current.

Toria, it's here:
Stately Homes

all.

Having a low day today but hopefully making progress in the long run. I think this may have all hit especially hard again recently as we're trying once more - and what if we do have kids? I want us to get it "right" and not fuck them up.

Thinking of taking it to a counsellor again - but to what end? Not too sure right now what that would do. Urghhh.

Merd, I'm sorry you're having a bad day today

I'm eyeing my inbox with horror and denial - have got a mail from scary woman. Haven't opened it yet though it's been there since Friday. Argghhhh! As my brain is working very hard to ignore the scary thing I might not be very coherent right now, but I'll try!

I wanted to say a bit about having a child with our past circumstances. My main thought I'd like you to know is ... it will be ok.

I was really worried about it but have since realised that being so concerned and translating that into action is a good sign! Shows we are determined to do things better than our parents and that coming from the perspective of observing and analysing our own parenting behaviour sets us up to keep on developing and gaining on skills... Vs parents who have no ability to analyse their own behaviour. My mother is totally incapable of self reflection, judging her own behaviour as not quite perfect, and therefore changing it. She Must be right and perfect at all times or her brittle self would collapse. So the ability to develop is hobbled.

Knowing you're missing direct experience of good parenting, we search for models of parenting to fill that gap. Books/ Internet, other people etc...

For example I was terrified of being like my mother, a feeling that increased throughout pregnancy. This terror was in part because of the constant refrain of 'you'll understand when you're a parent', like such terrible behaviour was actually perfect parenting, but only other parents have the ability to understand their 'higher purpose'. The other thing that really scared me was that my mother used to say that I was really like her, and that no matter how much I tried, I'd become exactly like her. Terrifying, that is become the thing I hated most in the world - not hating her exactly, but hating the darkness and twisted 'not right'ness that is inside her. Luckily one of the ace things about having a baby was that it proved absolutely that I am NOT like her, and her actions have become even more awful and inexplicable now I'm a parent. Rather the opposite of what my mother thought would happen.

I was prepared to not bond with my baby (sounds rather silly looking back on it!), but because of this I read lots about attachment parenting, and really dug into the way babies and parents form attachment, what happened if this doesn't happen etc etc. watching scientific studies tracking mothers eye contact and the difference between bonded and insecurely bonded babies. I was determined that I would 'fake it til I made it' with bonding as my babies whole life depended on it. A couple of counsellors over the years have said that this is a sign that I've got this parenting thing right, rather than being a terrible gap to fill. Which has been very comforting.

When I had DS I was completely unprepared for the rush of love I felt when I held my baby for the first time. Totally blew me away! I felt euphorically high for days after and for years after my heart sang and love just washed over me every time I hugged him, fed him, or smiled at him! I think this was natures irony, as I actually felt overwhelmed by the strength of this feeling, had no idea how to process it, as I was so sure I'd feel nothing and had revised so much to fake it!

I also revisited incidents from my past and realised how awful it really was, and how I wasn't to blame, and how different I am, as I could never ever ever do hose things to DS, it is unthinkable. So it's rather triggering, as it drags up all these memories and you end up reinterpreting the past, but ultimately it was quite healing.

And then all the way through to now (DS 5 yrs), I think I'm parenting in a more 'conscious' way because of my past. And on the look out for gaps in my brain! Also in direct reaction to my childhood, I have been very focused on meeting DS needs, seeing things through DSes eyes etc. So, more so than someone who had a good upbringing I think, as I'm always thinking about what I need to do, what I might be missing etc. I guess I'm working at it more, but also, I'm happy to do that as I've become very very interested in child development and parenting, so it's a bit of, I have to do this, and also, that I want to do it for me as well as DS. So trying to fill in the gaps I have, and keeping DS in the centre of my decisions in a way that would be alien to my mother. Not that I'm spoiling DS or making him king of the castle, as that would be bad for him and part of keeping him in the centre of my decision making is knowing that over indulging him isn't good for him, and making him the ruler of our small little family would be bad too.

Each time I run into a problem, when I realise it, i really try and think it through and stepping back to work it through, understanding that by changing my own reacting and behaviour, I can change the whole situation. So, maybe it takes me a while to understand it, but I hope I get there in the end... Like the sleeping thing, it really REALLY helped to realise from posters on this thread/ ship (!) that it was really about self- care, love and how to help him to self soothe and to nurture yourself... All things I have NO innate knowledge of as I grew up with these needs not filled (my emotions were met with anger, rage really, and disgust, hatred and humiliation... makes it tricky to know what to do, apart from NOT THAT, in a very big way!

Anyway, it's a process, growing as DS grows and changes. But all we can do is try to be the best parent we can, and know our strengths and weaknesses so we can keep on trying. It is heartening to know that I'm not ever going to make the same 'mistakes' as my parents. Though I'll be making my own, the bar is set so low by my mother that when I'd got through the first 2 years I'd already exceeded her standards... As I never had that strong attachment that sets a baby up for its life, the one that's so critical in the first 2 years of life.

I should remind myself of that more often, as I am a worrier about this stuff and so often feeling my way. But I have already broken the chain of abuse, as DS had that unconditional love and attention and care that all babies need. He had that in spades :) So, maybe I should celebrate that more - maybe we should all celebrate more that we are not following the path of our parents, wherever we are on that journey. Yay to us and race ya to the ships restaurant!

Misc thank you for that post. It's something I worry about constantly when I found out we are having a girl the only thing I could think about was what if I'm like my mother.

I hadn't thought of looking at attachment parenting but will do some research, I'm very worried about postnatal anxiety & depression as I already have antenatal anxiety & depression although I understand one doesn’t automatically mean the other, just an increased chance. Maybe having a bonding plan for after will help with the anxiety now.

Merd I know in my heart I would never treat my child the way she treats me I hold on to that strongly and have all the way through our struggle to conceive.

Im sure you know the same and you'll be a great mum! I bet you can think of 10 things straight off that you would do differently!

When I'm really wobbly I just speak to dh who has confirmed that he won't let me be like her and he'll give me a slap if I'm ever doing anything remotely cray cray!

Forgot to add that you sound like you have a wonderful relationship with your son misc

Also going to add in a vote of confidence for you Merd - I think half the battle in being a good parent is being aware that the way you were brought up wasn't ideal, and that you don't want to copy it. You want to do better, you want your child to feel the love that you didn't, you want them to be happy when you weren't.
This awareness ensures that you will second guess yourself a lot of the time! But that's far better than just doing it and not caring about the outcome.

I hear my mother's voice, I hear the tone, the words sometimes - and then I backtrack and apologise, something she never did.

One of her least attractive traits IMO, as a small child, was her sudden explosions of temper and "can't you see I've got a HEADACHE?!" - er well no, because you don't have a sign on your head, why didn't you just say so earlier?
I know I don't have the best temper, I know I'm impatient and can't stand a lot of noise.
I also know that I don't do the best I possibly could by my children by not being completely able to control that temper and impatience - but I have a good go at it. And if I feel like I'm losing my hold on it (mostly through noise levels, I'm very sensitive) then I at least warn them that things are going to go pete tong very quickly if they don't pack it in.
This may be seen by some child psychs as me trying to put the responsibility for my emotions onto them, which is a Bad Thing - but is that what I'm doing? I don't think so, but then I'm biased.

Having done the NLP, I know that we are supposed to be able to choose how we react to external stimuli, including other people's behaviours - but somehow, however hard I try, I can't change how I respond to continual aural irritation. It's like having my eardrums sandpapered. Short of wearing earplugs (which I can't, I hate them too), I just have to try to either filter out the noise levels, or find some other way of reducing them - and generally have to go for the latter. If it all gets too bad, I will leave the house - but I have had a few explosions of my own, but (Only mitigation) only AFTER warning them.

I don't know - I don't say I have the whole thing right either! - but I do feel that by a) questioning myself and b) feeling bad when I get it wrong, and trying better next time, that I am doing a better job of parenting than my poor mother. Who may herself have had shit parenting (despite my grandparents being lovely, and I do genuinely mean that, to us).
And above all - apologise when you do get it wrong! that means so much to them. And lots of hugs. LOTS of hugs - cuddles are a major part of our lives (see, told you I turned out to be a tactile person after all!)

Oh and Bacon - don't give it a second thought, it's my careless words, not you, that's the problem!

This thread title is SO apt. I am NC with my 'mother', and she finds it baffling. But when 10 out of 11 of us siblings (yes, that's right) refuse any form of contact, a normal, halfway sane person, would surely be looking at their own behaviour, no?

My story begins like this:

Mother had me at 17, couldn't cope. Found on the landing by my Grandfather having been left there for over a day whilst she was out drinking. Taken in by GP's.

Mother proceeds to have five more within the next five-six years. Continues drinking. Two of the five are adopted.

Grandmother dies of brain tumour when I was 5. Grandfather begins drinking.

Mother has no more children for several years until she meets her now-husband. 5 more (one per year!) follow.

Mother becomes violent (pushing siblings down stairs, threats with knives, puts out cigarettes on them, had to stop her suffocating one with a plastic bag). I take youngest siblings to school, feed them, make sure they have clean clothes, take them out. I was 12.

During one row, I call the police. Siblings taken into foster care, I remain with Grandfather. At this point, I can only have a normal conversation with him at 7 am before he goes to the shop for more cider. He is also violent, but claims not to remember (I remember him pointing his guns at me, himself, physical beatings on almost daily basis).

Social services then give mother numerous chances. The aim was to start with supervised visits and build back up if she stopped drinking. She missed loads of visits, and turned up drunk to many. Mother now claims social services "kidnapped" my siblings. They did no such thing: it was a lengthy process which took about two years before they were adopted, and she had chance after chance.

I'm removed from Grandfather at 15 owing to continuous physical violence, and the neighbour having sexually abused me for three years (a court case, but the CPS said lack of evidence as some time had elapsed until I felt brave enough to report - I reported at 15).

Get to University, have mental health crisis (unsurprisingly) and drop out. Get a job, save, return to a different degree. Now have BA, MA, and PhD (this year). Starting a Research Fellow job in Sept.

Mother says: "You came from me, you should respect me."

It is mind-boggling. HOW can someone have a lack of self--awareness? She is blocked from all social media. I remain in contact with some siblings, and have decided not to with the ones that were adopted as babies as they will have no memories of us older ones and it risks confusion.

I am married now, have a small house, two dogs, a normal life: it is very simple, but feels like a huge achievement. I am off anti-depressants after a decade. I don't want biological children (not good role model!) as 50/50 risk of deafness (from me) and a cancer-causing gene (turns out my 'mother' gave me this too!). May consider fostering older children in the future when more established job-wise (you move around a lot in academia).

For a while, I thought that if she explained herself and apologised, we could see about rebuilding. But she is oblivious. It is everyone else's fault, social services mostly. We are all conspiring against her. I am convinced she would receive a psychiatric diagnosis if assessed (no kidding).

Not making any particular point, just venting, and relieved to know that NC is quite a rational response to certain behaviours!

Nooo, I've just realised my long reply from earlier didn't post, rubbish! Trying again (sorry if it has somehow posted on your threads but hasn't turned up on mine and this is some weird repeat again)

Thank you so much misc what a lovely and encouraging post. Your son is so, so lucky to have you, he really is votes for you as mum in next life

I'll have to do some reading on attachment theory too (have read all the main baby books of course as like idiots I ordered about a thousand when we got that first positive test!)

You're right of course that DH is around fuzzy too to call me out on stuff. He's also pointed out that in a way (and as non creepy a way as possible), he and I have sort of "parented" each other and have definitely not parroted our worst parents there.

And Thumb, God, yet another similarity - my mum used to do the same and I'm extra sensitive to noise (though ear plugs have been my saviours sometimes). And she never apologised and I probably do too much. I hope you're right and that those sort of differences alone will help, even if the rest takes bloody hard work.

Gobstopper, I'm so sorry to read your story. Huge from me ... the main bit I can really relate to is the "self-delusion" aspect to it. It leaves you wondering if you've gone totally crazy doesn't it?

Merd, hope you're feeling better than this morning. Just wanted to add to Misc's superb post re: fears of becoming your parent when you have a child.

My biggest fear of having children before I became a parent was that I would repeat, not exactly my parents mistakes (hadn't found mumsnet then so didn't recognise them as such), but more my own unhappy experiences for my child. I particularly worried, waaaaay before I considered children, that I would have a daughter, as my own relationship with my mother, and hers with her mother, we're so screwed up. (My dad is the narc, but my mum enabled, which I have found very difficult to forgive and it was very strained between us for many years.)

I didn't find I bonded immediately with my DD. In fact, what got me realising my experience of parenting might be a chance to put things in a better position was a single incident when DD was three weeks old. We'd had a somewhat scary birth (her too, I could tell) and I had so struggled with the shock of having her, despite her being very much planned and wanted. After what felt like endless screaming, I finished one truly godawful feed with her, picked her up and looked into her face and smiled at her. She copied me exactly and smiled back. I burst into tears and, as a pp has said, my heart filled instantly.

For the first time since I had her, I suddenly realised that perhaps having a child could be a rewarding, pleasurable experience. It had genuinely never occurred to me until that point that children GIVE love to you, and don't just take. I reframed my whole relationships with both my parents off the back of that moment - I'd gone into parenthood expecting my child to be a burden, because that's how I felt as a child.

I adore being DDs mum. It wasn't the instant love rush lots of people feel, but it's no less strong and powerful for that. ( I just wanted to reassure you in case that doesn't happen for you straight away - if this is the case, it doesn't mean history is repeating itself.)

I also second the pp who said our kind of experiences make you a more considered, thoughtful parent. Having a child has been a tremendous opportunity to teach myself, as well as DD, the skills to cope - especially as we are both sensitive to noise, emotions etc. I have found patience, resilience and calmness in myself I never would have thought possible. And I am far from the ideal parent, let me just add

I do a lot of what PPs have suggested with DD to relieve anxiety or stress: naming emotions, empathising, massage, singing, deep breathing (hand on tummy works particularly well for toddlers), distraction, play wrestling, humour, running, dancing, reciting poems, stroking our (long suffering) cat. It's all been especially good practice for me. I have the odd outburst (DD is going through a violent stage and I find this particularly triggering. She's strong and can really hurt me) but in general I'm doing so much better than I would have ever dreamed. I need to remind myself of that occasionally too.

I'm TTC no 2 now, and struggling with anxiety as well (hi, fellow sufferers on the thread) and, unlike DD, this one is taking its time to happen. I'm scared. I'm scared if I do and can't cope, and I'm scared if I don't / can't have another.

I just wanted to let you know you're not alone in worrying.

Also, I think you'll make a truly wonderful mum, based on your posts here. For what it's worth, this stranger on the internet believes in you.

Oh, another thing I do with DD that really seems to work is when she's upset, or sometimes just for no reason, I repeat that phrase from The Help (anyone seen that? Really resonated with me) that the main character, a nanny, tells a child with narc mother: "you are important. You are kind. You are loved." I tell myself sometimes too.

Thumbwitches, I totally get what you mean about the sandpapered ear drums, patience and temper! I also apologise and hug a lot...

Gobstopper. What a terrible time you've had, I'm so sorry. Have a duvet and from me.

Thumb
I have noise sensitivity too, it's called hyperacusis, and there is a confirmed link to abuse and PTSD. Go easy on yourself.

healingfromcomplextraumaandptsd.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-noise-sensitivity-hyperacusis/

Thanks for that link, Dogdays - some interesting points there! One of the things that made me worry about having my own DC was the baby crying - I have extremely low tolerance to high pitched repetitive sounds - and even talked of getting industrial grade ear defenders before DS1 was born. But luckily, somehow, his crying never affected me in that way, nor did DS2 - although both of them when they start whining now do! And shrieking, OMG, shrieking. Can't do it. Can't cope at all.
I still have to track down odd high pitched whiny noises and find out where they're coming from and then destroy with extreme prejudice but I've learnt to accommodate e.g. the fridge and freezer. Just.

Interesting that you didn't have a reaction to your own babies crying. Do you think it was because it was not deliberate? Is it deliberate and repetitive noise making that sets you off? It is for me.
I think for me it was because my mother, when she was watching tv, had the habit of poking her index finger into her cheek (on the outside) and making weird sucking noises, it was like a tic. Couldn't say anything about it of course, even though you could barely follow what was going on on the tv without this smacking noise the whole time. Mouth noises in general make me freak out. Ironic really as NM had a problem with my asthmatic sister's breathing. I would say it's the number one reason I didn't have kids. It is so bad that if I'm on a night out and the noise gets to me I have to go home, it is as bad as if someone pinned me down and tickled me, I feel like I am losing my mind. Poor DH has learned to go to the bathroom to pick his teeth... Lol

Yes - I do think it's because it wasn't deliberate, they weren't crying to piss me off, they cried because they needed something. If they'd been persistent criers, like a friend of mine whose DS seemed to cry for 22h out of every 24, I might have started to suffer more - but they weren't, they were easily comforted, mostly.

Other babies/children screaming in a supermarket though - I'd be seeing red after a few minutes! And don't get me started on mouth/nose noises - sniffing, loud swallowing, DH's jaw clicking when he chews, breath noises - there was this man on a train on my way to work one day who sniffed every few seconds, rather than blow his nose and at the end of the 40 minutes I wanted to smash his head in!!

Deliberate noise, oh yes. Yes yes yes. DH has a foul habit of singing a snatch of song over and over, starting fairly normally then getting more and more stylised/exaggerated until I crack. It's like a form of torture, but he thinks I'm joking when I tell him how painful it is. He's not abusive in any other way, just this - but his mother's just as bad with constant fucking noise-making, so I think it's just a bad habit he's grown up with, that he can't break now because he doesn't see the real need for it. he will one day when I finally crack and stab him

Morning all shipmates!
Pancakes, bacon and maple syrup are under the silver salvers up on top, if you haven't already had breakfast (or you fancy another). Duvets provided up there too if you want to carry on nesting.

Lurkers- we always have spare of everything so pop along for some scran if you are peckish. You don't have to say anything

GodStopper
So sorry for your horrible traumatic experiences. Absolutely dreadful. You are doing brilliantly to have kept going as you have done. Keep posting here if it helps you to get it out. Hope you have some good RL support to call on and life feels more peaceful now.

Godstopper - I read your post last night and was horrified by it - not just your own experiences, which are dreadful, but also your mother's - even though she was a dreadful mother and caused all sorts of problems for you and all your siblings, I can't help wondering how much of her own problems came from further back up the line. Not that it should affect your feelings - she made your life a misery, by the sounds of it - just from the outside, it looks like she had a lot of shit in her life too. Obviously only from what you've said - but I would suspect that if she was already a heavy drinker at 17, then either MH problems (undiagnosed) or abuse formed part of her own upbringing.

BUT - other people manage to get past those things and NOT abuse their own children, so it's not an excuse for her!