What the hell are we going to do now? PIL related. Long :-(

[WokenupinaNightmare]

Ok, long story short. I hope. (I normally lurk) I need some outside perspective from wise Mumsnetters. I think I'm losing touch with what is 'normal'. and I have already learned so much on the Relationships board

My PIL are lovely, decent, hard-working people. Well educated, 'up-standing pillars of the local community' sort. After my difficult childhood (severe family illness) and various life changing events, I was over the moon to meet and fall in love later in life, with my wonderful now DH. Also quite delighted to discover he had a pretty amazing family who were great achievers in all areas. They were all extremely welcoming towards me, although MIL could at times be rather suffocating in her enthusiasm (her son and I had met in our 30's and as the last to settle down, maybe she was panicking slightly that it wouldn't happen for him). We were extremely lucky to have a little financial help from them to buy our first house and I am always telling them how grateful we are.

It was no secret to her children that MIL wanted grandchildren. They all knew there was a family heirloom waiting for the first grandchild to arrive. I was also slightly perturbed to hear it was family knowledge that one of her DIL's was "already on the folic acid" during their wedding planning. No pressure then. Luckily, they were rewarded with a honeymoon conception and MIL -beaming- duly congratulated them on their achievement.

Now, I should add that MIL has high anxiety levels. They have been described as 'neuroses' but if I listed them here, you may have different ideas. They also like to be very 'involved' in their grown up children's lives and with extensive life experience have lots of wisdom that has to be shared. They also like to know as much as possible and often worry -unnecessarily- when they aren't involved. I understand in the past, they have never refrained from commenting when they did not think any potential in-laws were not suitable, particularly if they were foreign and could take their child/grandchildren abroad This understandably has caused some tensions.

DH & I were able to date, get engaged and plan a small wedding without too much discussion intervention At the time, MIL was pre-occupied with the other siblings, mainly how they were bringing their children up and other wedding plans. She became quite ill with anxiety and stress during this time, perhaps because the siblings had their own plans/lives and she wasn't happy about some of them (PIL tend to ring the other siblings and share the stress out during these dramas). I am aware that one sibling's calls had to be screened by FIL as she was too ill to talk to them directly and another sibling had threatened to go NC with PIL if they continued to be 'over-involved' with their child-rearing ideas. Or 'concern' as it is labelled.

There were a couple of calls about bringing our wedding forward (why? it was the winter! brrr) etc On the whole though, during our short engagement they were very kind and supportive, offering lots of help and even donating a small sum towards the modest costs (very low key wedding).

Both DH & I are quite private people (as are PIL) and as we don't consider ttc a team event, never announced to all that we were going to try for a family. (Even though they had quizzed DH about it before the wedding - to ensure it was going to happen I assume). Less than five months after our wedding (with as yet no pregnancy announcement) MIL asked to have a private word with me. She said she knew that I enjoyed my career and that I had worked hard to gain financial independence, despite my difficulties in life. She suggested it might be difficult for me to give that up. Therefore, to make it a bit easier for me, she wanted to give me £10,000 to support me during any maternity leave (!) Bizarrely I was already 6.4 weeks pregnant and we were planning on telling them after our 12 week scan. Unfortunately, I had been bleeding AND feeling extremely ill and didn't handle my -surprised- response clearly and assertively enough. I was also in the throes of a severe chronic illness (at that time undiagnosed) and mumbled politely that it was thoughtful, but if she wanted to give money then it would belong to DH and it would be up to him how to use it. I would have told her that I was pregnant anyway, but had a bad feeling about the bleeding and knew she'd be upset, so I didn't. After she left the house, I miscarried. The pregnancy was over but chronic illness continued.

The next 18 months have been a blur of uncharacteristic continual severe illness, misdiagnosis, countless hospital visits, medical letters, scans and finally, a diagnosis and PIP application/ill health retirement. We didn't make it headline news amongst everyone we know (we weren't sure what was happening ourselves) but DH kept his family informed. During this time, I was unable to attend any family/friend events and lost touch with so many people. It was a horrid time, but I attempted to keep in touch by group e-mail and also sent copies to PIL. My friends were amazing! During my illness -where I was housebound most of the time- PIL held group meet-ups, but rarely came to the house, so I did not see them much at all.

MIL was extremely anxious when we discussed my illness with her at the beginning and sent me to her recommended alternative practitioner to see if it would help. I gladly went, feeling so ill, but it became another treatment we tried that did not work. We did not share our miscarriage with them on top of me being ill. (MIL has experienced terrible fertility issues/lost a child in the past and I could not face involving anyone in our grief, especially with the inevitable anxiety! I had enough of my own by then). Anyway, we would soon be pregnant again wouldn't we and give her some happy news. Well, I did get pregnant on a further two occasions and devastatingly lost them both, one between hearing the heartbeat for the 2nd time and getting a scan picture (10 weeks) and the 12 week scan. The chronic illness may or may not have contributed and it was a scary, unpredictable time for us both. We clung to each other and survived through it, thank goodness. My maternal age was advancing and I know my Dh was desperate for children. We had the inevitable discussions about whether we should separate and he should have a second chance with someone younger/more fertile. He was always adamant that it had taken him so long to find me, he wasn't letting go of me now, children or no children. I was very keen to keep trying (not very wise in hindsight) but he was a lot more realistic about our chances and although sad, said he had let that go now. He could see that I was too unwell. The pressure was off. Are you still with me?

DH told PIL about the miscarriages very soon after the last one (16 months after the wedding) and said that it was not looking very hopeful for us now. MIL sent me a lovely e-mail about how horrid MC's were and that they were thinking of me and the only thing that mattered was to get better again. They sent round lots of vitamins/healthy drinks and cooked food. Very thoughtful as I was so ill. Sadly, I did not improve and of course did not go out or see people. I asked PIL to come and visit (they often are near seeing the other siblings) but they seemed rather elusive. I believe that because of their anxiety, DH did not perhaps be as honest about how ill I really was. There were lots of other issues in the family (more fertility angst elsewhere) and with his DM's health, he only focussed on the positives. i.e. the days I had got upright and left the house briefly. MIL did ring me to wish me Happy Birthday which was thoughtful. But she was concerned that DH was not getting out enough and wanted to know did he still see his friends? (NOT on my priority list to be honest).

During my mostly housebound and awaiting a diagnosis months, PIL would travel to the area to see some of the siblings and meet DH from work for lunch to catch up. He would come back with various updates. I.e.

*MIL thought we were becoming socially isolated (er, hello, did you know I was ill and rarely seeing anyone -not even my own family- and I was relying on DH for care?!! AND I had invited PIL on numerous occasions).

*MIL was extremely concerned that we weren't in touch very much with the siblings (er, the ones with children or are triumphantly pregnant you mean? I think my DH struggled with this as much as I did)

*MIL was worried that Dh would not have children and should freeze some sperm (DH pointed out to her that as we had stopped trying, unless I had been hit by a bus and he would have to go ahead and meet someone else in the future, that it would not be necessary). MIL came back the next day with another sibling to convince him and MIL would pay for the sperm freezing storage costs. He declined.

*Following another long call between DH and MIL, a letter arrived in the post. It was a newspaper article stating that the UK was short of sperm donors and MIL thought that if DH signed up for it that it would "take the pressure off" and wished us both luck (!)

MIL seemed to be avoiding visiting me during this time and I became upset that she didn't visit or seem to understand how ill I was. I felt I was being pushed out and she was becoming a little 'over-involved' with discussions that did not seem to involve me. DH then decided to share this with her (to improve relations?) and she arrived unexpectedly on my doorstep weeping when he was at work. She was upset that we had not told her about any of the pregnancies (none had ever reached 12 weeks) and that I was "secretive". She was also very upset that I had not even told her about the MC when she was round here last offering the money. Truthfully I told her I did not know it was a MC at the time, as I'd never had one before. She then shared her own distressing fertility struggles (about burying babies) with me and although I wish she hadn't (it made me cry) I understand she was probably trying to empathise/get closer. I was too ill to really engage with her -or anyone else.

Life carried on, both with me not recovering and MIL going back to not visiting me but DH from work. I asked PIL to visit by e-mail, telephone call, or through DH. I offered to cook (would have taken me a week) or to travel to visit them and take food (so that MIL wouldn't have to cook). Her anxiety during this time was sky high (other family issues) and she had a huge panic attack in public. DH said she was too ill to visit me (but seemed to manage to get to the other siblings ok). During an argument, he then confessed that MIL thought that I had been stringing DH along all this time. Putting the wedding off as long as possible during dating (I was waiting for him to propose!) and making sure I was too old to have children, so it would be too late. It explained so much. I guess when there was no pregnancy news over 16 months of marriage, they became ? fearful?

I continued to be ill, and trying (& failing) to make arrangements and see people. I'm a very sociable person normally and the isolation was driving me crazy! Last year we organised to travel and go and meet PIL (I was hoping it would improve relations). Unfortunately they decided to turn it into a bit of a celebration and invited other siblings along. DH and I had been hoping for something small and low key which we had discussed with them (without staring at pregnant bellies) so he cancelled politely by e-mail 48 hours before. MIL e-mailed a lovely brief reply, but there was some panicky phone calls the day after about why he had suddenly cancelled, so DH had to send another reassuring e-mail out to them that he was fine, just weary.

On the evening of the day we were due to originally meet, PIL drove 50 miles for an unannounced visit to us. MIL was very teary and clingy with DH. She turned sideways to me, would not look me in the eye and ignored all attempts by me to engage and set a date so they could come and visit for lunch. Later we discovered that PIL thought that DH was suicidal as his cancellation was 'uncharacteristic'. He has NO idea where that idea came from. (With suicide in my family I was careful to discuss this with him at length!).

This has gone on long enough! Are you still there? Sorry. I could write so much more but wanted to provide a balanced account of the main events. I have been ill for so long and had so much time to think about what has happened but I'm not sure I am strong enough to see solutions to this. Disclaimer: The illness/ recurrent miscarriages has triggered anxiety and depression, which although under control now, has had me doubting my judgements/feelings.

The happy news is that now I have a diagnosis, I have an amazing medical support team and I have clear information I can share with family/friends. I have been advised to surround myself with people who can really support me during my potential recovery -fingers crossed that happens- and to avoid anxiety where possible. I still find the behaviours of MIL upsetting and their long anxiety-filled telephone calls to DH very difficult. I can't list their fears/neuroses for fear of outing myself, but they are long and varied and at times quite extreme. All very tiring. (One being that I took their offer of money the wrong way, even though it was kindly meant etc. I see some blame coming my way.....).

My doctor has suggested that DH tells PIL they are not to ring the house or visit. How is that going to do down?! Ulp. My husband is the kindest, most caring, calm, loving, individual. He tends to be the peacemaker and is quite adamant that they do everything through love and do not intend to offend. However, even he seems to be on the edge over this recently and appears hesitant to be in touch with them.

Any advice or suggestions? They are intrinsically lovely, thoughtful people and I am quite devastated that I have lost a relationship with them due to MC and illness (rarely see my own family). I'm not sure what to do next. What would you do if they were your PIL? I hope there is someone still reading?..... If so, then thank you!

Now we can all go and have a long lie down!

You are all very kind.

So, writing a firm e-mail is going to be harder than we think. Shit's going to hit the fan after it's gone and there's been some 'gathering of thoughts' before the e-mail is sent. How to word boundaries without starting WW3? which it will anyway Poor DH. It's not been in his nature to need to do this before.

Any further wisdoms on why this is a very good idea to send this and what to say? (From you helpful lot, not me!)

Note: It feels like this has gone on for years. My days alone are LONG. I'm weary. My DH has heard it all from me so many times and we've both hit peak DP/PIL discussion

You were all right that it takes time. Anyone got any further advice or experience in these sensitive situations?

There is no way to avoid WW3, they will find your request for some space unreasonable, unfair, etc. They don't know otherwise so don't expect them to accept this easily.

What I would say is that you need to send the email and prepare for the backlash, because it will be huge. It is at this point that your other half needs to stand his ground, protect you (they will blame YOU) and prepare himself for pils cutting contact for a while.

This is like a stare game, the one that blinks first looses the war. If your partner goes back to them all apologetic, things will get much worse. So do not send the message until you both are sure that you can carry things through until they accept your mew "terms".

New not mew

Um, our experience, for what it's worth, is that emáil is a dreadful medium to use, as is a letter. Face to face to begin with is less hurtful. Emáil tends to be misinterpreted and then gets forwarded to everyone. Only use email in very last resort

And in a conversation, you need to remain calm, assertive without aggression, keep repeating the same things, eg "I understand where you are coming from. But that's not my view" ( being his view). Repeat calmly for ever.

Begin with a positive, i will always love you, take a card saying that to begin with, hand it over, make sure FIL gets it, put something like will always love you and be grateful for all you have done for me and us.

And then provide some face saving. She needs it. Eg," we've wanted to keep the worry away from you, and it's been very private to us, but there have been medical problems and now the doctors are saying that we need space and time away from everyone, I'm sure in the nineteenth century we would have gone to Italy for five years....so, here and now, we are just not going to be generally available.

That doesn't mean we don't love you. We do. And we'll want to hear what's happening from time to time. [ I suggest we send each other fortnightly emails , a bit like a diary , to keep in touch, or perhaps we go back to writing to each other once a month, as they did in the old days. ] but just at the moment, we need that space and time. "

Don't get into how long will this last, just repeat, we don't know, We just need this now.

Hth.

This site gets linked to a lot on MN and I find it helpful, particularly this section:

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/estranged-parents-and-boundaries.html

The thing to keep in mind is your PiL's ideal of what should happen and yours and dh's are polar opposites. PiL would like things as they are now but even more so. You want things much less than they are now. Their behaviour meets their needs: the behaviour gets you to meet their needs, of course they will resist this and see it as upsetting. But that doesn't make their behaviour ok and their being upset does not mean that you have done anything wrong. I think one of the biggest shocks for me and the biggest change was to learn that a particular member of my family being upset and showing me how hurt they felt and how ungrateful and selfish they thought I was, did not mean I was doing anything wrong. I really had to learn to sometimes let them have those feelings and not see it as a cue to me to rush in, fix everything and try to make them happy again. (Largely by letting my boundaries go.)

Your PiL have issues that belong to them. I wish I could remember all the 3 Cs I have seen quoted on MN, I've found them very helpful too. Something like 'you didn't cause this. You cannot change this.' and there is a third one.

It's going to be about holding those boundaries, patiently weathering the storm while they and test out that those behaviours don't get their needs met any more but that other behaviours (being calm, being reasonable, respecting boundaries) do. And working on not letting it stress or upset you as much as possible.

MeMySon, Orlanda, rumbling, thank you for being there and offering more advice. It is SO useful to us. I think we are very tired and worn down by the last few years and it is difficult to find the energy and strength to alter the situation now and then keep re-setting the boundaries. There will be massive fallout from this. We have seen it before with the other siblings.

MeMySon that is useful advice about preparing for the backlash and standing firm. Maybe we need to develop strategies for dealing with each possible scenario so we aren't thinking on the back foot? It won't be accepted easily. understatement of the year

Orlanda I hear what you are saying and I agree with this. In the beginning. It seems there has been SO much discussion on this issue that DH is past the face-saving and is now on the edge. (I'm so sad to find out how much he has been protecting me from. When I was so difficult to live with too!) I'm now discovering how much more was going on behind the scenes and MIL has got herself into a hand-wringing, wailing, anxiety-driven mess over what she sees is right. She is past the stage of listening, hence the e-mail. Most of it will just be repeating what DH has said before. I think a pre-agreement on the future communication plan is a great idea.

rumbling that Estranged Parents website is fantastic. Coincidentally, I was reading another page on it after this useful thread -below- led me to it. TWO signposts in one day! And Toxic In-Laws turned up today...... The book, not the PIL I need to be better so I can understand it all!

We will have to learn to remember this!

the biggest change was to learn that a particular member of my family being upset and showing me how hurt they felt and how ungrateful and selfish they thought I was, did not mean I was doing anything wrong.

Good Advice!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2635217-This-is-really-chilling-I-think?pg=1

Ah, fair enough.

Yes, one cannot be Pollyanna. It doesn't work. Esp for people with MH difficulties. Even more so if, to change children's book, they are Dementors.

Draft the email, both of you read it, leave it overnight, read again and then send. Do not send if tired, drunk, emotional. Factual, calm and kindly.

Will you warn the siblings in advance? Simultaneously? Not at all? Be prepared with whát you want to say to them and others too.

Thank you for your wise advice Orlanda. My laptop crashed as did I and I was offline for a while. Scary.

DH has drafted an e-mail over a very long week. It's far calmer than mine would have been. We have read it, re-read it and now sent it. Feel quite sad.

One sibling -who has resorted to threatening NC with PIL on a few occasions is prepared. The other siblings who are like PIL don't know about the e-mail. Futile exercise

Anyway, have nearly finished Toxic In-Laws and it's REALLY helping. When I am feeling much better, I would like to send my own e-mail to PIL but I'm not really sure that would gain anything. I would like the siblings to be aware of what has really happened. I can imagine the script has been re-written at the PIL end as to why we aren't in touch.

As everyone says though, probably just best for me to go NC for my health and mental sanity and not get upset that DH will still want to sustain a relationship of reduced contact with these people

Well done.

Draft the email to PIL, then either throw it away, burn or put in a drawer marked never sent. You'll feel better for having written it down. But don't send.

Have a short description of what has happened to give to those who insist on knowing, that you both stick to.

Otherwise say with dignity, I'm sorry , these things are tricky, DH and I are not prepared to discuss.

Now breathe...

You are right Orlanda, thank you. I have been struggling with anger issues -on the days I have felt well enough- that life keeps chucking crap my way. I think I have wanted to use PIL as scapegoats to vent at.

Let's hope a recovery is on the plan and then I can use healthy, less destructive ways to release my frustration.

Having said that, it will be interesting to see what happens post e-mail. I have received yet ANOTHER postcard from MIL about nothing much at all. I want them to stop. I can't imagine she enjoys writing them, so it's completely pointless from both sides.

nightmare

re your comment:-

"DH has drafted an e-mail over a very long week. It's far calmer than mine would have been. We have read it, re-read it and now sent it. Feel quite sad".

Oh dear re sending it, he may well now receive a barrage of vicious mean invective in return as he has basically given them ammunition.

Such disordered of thinking people like his parents will simply use his e-mail to use that against him. It matters not a jot how nicely worded it was, it will be seen by them as an attack on them. These people also love and want the last word and they will go all out now to achieve that aim too.

Never send an e-mail of your own to them. Write it by all means (have done similar myself re late FIL and it is a cathartic exercise) but do not send it. The best thing to do with his parents is to not at all engage them in any manner which is basically no contact.

The 3cs

You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

I gave up on accommodating my ILs a few years ago. We had some experiences (both as a family and me as DIL) where it became clear that they had really not got the measure of what was reasonable.

They aren't bad people, they are in fact good-hearted people, but with that they are incredibly selfish and self-centred. It isn't horrible, they want people to adore them and can't quite see that it isn't a thing that can be forced. It feels bad to be summoned to visit at an inconvenient time and then told that we are being given the gift of some lovely time with family - if that makes sense. I have so many examples but won't go on as like all family dynamics it's hard to express!

It got to a very bad point with MIL and I, lots of resentment on my part and she wasn't happy but would never say. I had a long talk with DH about how she inserted herself into my life in ways I did not appreciate (your MIL seems to do the same, gifts of money with strings attached, suggestions as to how you live) and luckily a week after that conversation she played a blinder so I was able to go through it with him and say in what ways it was not ok. Whereas I'd have given her the benefit of the doubt before, I just politely emailed to refuse her offer and to say please stop (it was something to do with my son as well) because it was a delicate time for ds. I got no reply but at least she could see that I wasn't afraid to stand up to her calmly.

I also withdrew about 80% from family get togethers (I was busy) and managed to do this without making any scene, and with dh's support. MIL made a few comments which suggested I was in charge of what dh and ds did - I'm not, I never have been! This way she can't have failed to notice that I wasn't stopping any contact with them and the comments stopped.

It was a withdrawal from what had been a really suffocating family - dh didn't see it, as it was "just his family" and he bumbles along in general. I didn't think they were poisonous or anything but they definitely overstepped the mark and it was becoming ingrained that they would have certain controls over our time, our activities, even our life decisions like buying property. We have managed to quietly set boundaries that aren't dramatic and it has made a lot of difference.

I have no idea what they think about us being a bit more distant (mainly me) but we're all friendly and MIL in particular is quite different to how she used to be with me, for the better.

Good luck, it's hard when you hate a dynamic (and as someone said your DH will be so used to it) but something has to give or it's too unbearable.

don't know what's going on here but can't seem to see your p5 L-o-n-g post coming up

Lovely op, woke, you have my permission to not respond to my post. It's wearing me out that you feel you have to respond to everyone, so please spare my nerves

Darling. It's not your job to make everyone happy. You might take a look at CoDA to maybe get a handle on that. Signed up member myself, so no finger-pointing here. Codependency is a complex disorder, not many actually understand what it is, so do take a look. Books by Melody Beattie are also a good port of call.

there is a long-running thread on here by someone whose wife has severe OCD. The crux of it is that his wife refuses treatment - and the husband, and their child (), have to weather the severe consequences. We may have compassion for someone with a mental illness BUT it is for the sufferer to take responsibility for that illness and seek to address it; to recognise that those around them suffer terribly if they don't. It looks as though you are in that position - so hard with your history

I have had a lifetime of this or that difficulty due to a very disordered childhood. Not all my difficulties have been mental/emotional but also physical as my bod struggled to bear the weight of my past. I've learned a lot of skills along the way to introduce some right-thinking to challenge the lessons I learned as a child (re it's my fault, I am responsible etc. We really believe this stuff).

You had a horrible time when you were a child, along came DH with his 'wonderful' family - a dream come true! At last at last you had found your cushion in life: the family you'd always wanted. Only this family came with a high expectation to perform - couched in loveliness, so lovely!, but the expectation was there. Oh no! So close... yet so far away. Unwilling to let your dream go you reasoned they were being possibly a bit OTT but no-one is perfect; DH was also well-versed in keeping the peace and turning a blind eye. So you set to. Then you had a MC, then another, then another (I'm so sorry ).

The 'expectations' went through the roof.

You got ill - really ill.

I can see how that could happen [

Attila I know exactly what you mean about the e-mail. And I think that's what we both think might happen too. Hence the long week thinking about it. However, we were at crunch point. Calm conversations could not happen because of MIL's high anxiety behaviours. They were exhausting emotionally blackmailing.

DH was not really sure what was happening. Information about MIL's 'condition' and 'concerns' were being relayed through long late night phone calls from his DF. They were demonstrating small signs of 'support' towards me, but DH was beginning to suspect they were not as well intentioned genuine as they first appeared.

Writing that calm e-mail to them is his way of beginning an honest dialogue with them. Their reply will inform him on how he proceeds next. Whatever they say, remaining NC is for me, the best way I can recover.

It is SO much easier to accept the situation as it is and not keep trying different things to improve it. Ah, the 3 C's that a PP was referring too, cheers Attila. That was very timely.

Thank you to everyone who has reminded me calmly and logically that writing an e-mail of my own to PIL will not help. I really like the idea of writing a draft and not sending it. I think this will be very therapeutic and I will share it with DH instead. he's heard it all before.

Felco you sound like me!

It got to a very bad point with MIL and I, lots of resentment on my part and she wasn't happy but would never say. I had a long talk with DH about how she inserted herself into my life in ways I did not appreciate.....

This is where we are. We are just waiting for the reply/next step so that DH can step up. Yep, it's just "his family". For me, I am getting more and more used to the idea that we won't have that close family unit with them, and you know what, that's ok.

nightmare

re your comment:-
"Writing that calm e-mail to them is his way of beginning an honest dialogue with them. Their reply will inform him on how he proceeds next. Whatever they say, remaining NC is for me, the best way I can recover".

I think his calm e-mail has stirred up a hornet's nest and they will attack and go in hard on him. His wish for an honest dialogue will go unfulfilled.

Will he consider seeing a therapist about his parents and importantly one who has no bias about keeping families together?. You could also perhaps benefit from seeing such a person as well.

Your own self remaining no contact with his parents is indeed the best way for you to recover.

Hello Attila, thank you for coming along . I have peered through the door of Stately Homes on a few occasions and seen you in there with a clipboard welcoming the newbies! And you continue with your wisdom over here too, you were absolutely right!

Calm, kind, thoughtful, gentle e-mail to PIL= Hornet's Nest

I think I was sort of expecting it, but was hoping for the best. DH though has been 'saddened' by their response. I was actually shocked at how vitriolic, accusative, personal, angry and slightly deranged their e-mail was. Directed towards him. I'm not yet mentioned. Just lots of references about how uncharacteristic this is, they can't believe it's him, blah, blah.

So, although unpleasant, it does help to clarify a few things. PIL are following the script exactly [sigh].

My poor DH though He's been the last of the siblings to question them and they are "devastated" as he is normally "so reticent" obedient.

And I meant to say, yes, the therapist idea for DH is a good one. I'm slightly further along the journey (and have read Toxic In-Laws) but I do think it would be useful for him. Although he has spent so long enmeshed and not being able to express his own views very often without fear of backlash, it may take a little while to get there.

Quick wave to Springy. LOVED your post and am loving coming out of isolation and 'talking' this through on here in my own time when I feel well enough. I need the 'pacing' practice too.

So:
CoDa [tick]
Melody Beattie [tick] although Pia Melody is excellent too!
Dream come true family [tick]
Stress resulting in illness [tick]
Not responsible for other's MH [tick]

I have covered lots of this already in the past, but being so very ill I'd forgotten some of it lost my fighting spirit

Thank you for a very timely reminder. I am really learning my lesson this time!

Sorry to hear about your own personal struggles. Hope you are in a good place now. Your post really helped, so I hope that means yes, or at least better.

for you both!

Don't forget, cherish yourself, cherish him. Small treats, little jokes, cups of tea ( keep the liquids up), have three good things to do or think about at any one time. Not nec big, can be small like the emergency gu chocolate pots in the fridge, the second series of x you were going to watch together at Christmas and never got round to, a concert to listen to.