Mumsnet jury needed - best friend and DH have upset me

[Pages]

Have been fed up of late as despite a really nice Xmas break I have been up with the kids every morning and DH stays up late and sleeps in. Have raised the issue several times and he makes promises that I will get a lie in next time that never materialise.

Last night best friend stayed. Every time she stays I go to bed att 11 and she stays up with DH talking and drinking till early hours, I get woken up and am fed up and feel unsupported because they both lie in while I am up early with kids. Just raised it with both. DH is angry with me that I have made a scene in front of her. Best friend feels it is my issue with him and she is on holiday and shouldn't be told when to go to bed. I feel like I have two litte ones and two teenagers in the house with me. Am realy uspet that noone cares how I feel.

[Jimjams2]

I think if you go as a guest (and are a best friend) of the mother of a child with SN (as Pages is) then you should notice what is going on and use your head a bit. Yes the dh is more to blame, but best friend here has been thoughtless. Every bit of advice that you ever read about how to help carers of children with disabilities will tell you that they won't ask for time off, won't ask for help but would very much appreciate it if offered/given. I've always been staggered by the people that have come to us (family so they should know better) and not see that they're adding extra pressure by sitting around waiting to be fed and looked after when I'm run ragged anyway.

I was also quite suprised by the change of attitude after they did it themseleves- it was like they hadn't really noticed how much work it was before.

[lazyemma]

No. The responsibility here lies absolutely with Pages' husband. If he can't do an early start after a 2am bedtime (which, to be honest, isn't that big a deal - I do it all the time), then it's his duty to go to bed at a decent hour.

Women are so unforgiving of other women when they're perceived to have breeched some vital tenet of "sisterhood". I doubt Pages' friend is psychic - you talk vaguely about how she should "notice what's going on around her" but unless Pages has spoken to her before about how she's doing more than her fare share of early starts with the kids because her husband can't get his lazy arse out of bed in the morning, how is she supposed to know what the knock-on effect of one late night will be?

To be honest, if you expect your visitors to a) have an intricate knowledge of the dynamics and demands of your family relationships and b) follow the bedtime regime of a 12 year old, then it's a wonder people want to come visit at all.

[lazyemma]

actually, re-reading one of Pages' posts, she does say that she brought the issue up with her the day before. Ok then - I do agree the friend could've been more thoughtful. Anyway, it seems she now sees where Pages is coming from too, so all this is a bit academic really.

[Pages]

Lazyemma, you are wrong, I do not have an issue with their staying up later than me - just not that late when there are kids to be cared for in the morning. I am insecure about a lot of things in my life but DH is the one area where I am entirely secure and if you knew me and him as friends in RL do you would understand why. As I have already said he has always been incredibly loyal to me. And in fact I went to sleep for a couple of hours and was woken by the noise two hours later.

DH totally accepts it was his fault and I think it was more his fault but every time she comes to stay she (and therefore he)is up till the early hours - he is normally not up much more than an hour after me. Every time she stays it has woken me and every time I have got upset and I thought she realised last time she stayed that it was an issue, and I hoped this time without having to spell it out that she would be more sensitive. I did tell her the day before that I wasn't getting enough sleep, and I personally would have had the sensitivity at least after the last time she was here to have realised it was an issue.

I personally would not have behaved in the way she did if the situation were reversed. I would, as Jimjams says, have been tuned in enough to her life to have been sensitive to her needs. I do accept however that she is not a mind reader and maybe I should have spelt it out clearly like Jimjams did with her family beforehand that whilst I don't expect her to go to bed at the same time as me I would appreciate it if she didn't stay up so late this time.

We have argued about it again today actually as she contacted me and said she was upset and offended by my accusations even though the first thing I said to her was that it wasn't about wrong or right, just that I felt unsupported.

DH accepts it is his reposnsibility, but didn't like the way I came flying down at 2 am all upset which is fair enough, and he also says that he doesn't even care to stay up late talking with her but feels it would be rude to leave her sitting up by herself.

I think we all judge things by our own standards and I think that I as someone who is permanaently sleep deprived and has quite a difficult life with DS1's additional needs would not have behaved that way but I guess she has a very different life and feels differently. She did say she ares about my feelings and would behave differently next time which is the main thing.

[Pages]

And Jimjams has summed it up perfectly as did Tigermoth - I didn't want to have to ask or tell her not to stay up late. I didn't want to be forced into a parental role. I just hoped quietly that she would be more sensitive to my needs.

[Pages]

Cares not ares!

[Jimjams2]

I don't expect anyone to have intricate knowledge of family dynamics, but I do expect visitors to our house to be sympathetic to the fact that we have a disabled child. Pages has a child with SN, her bf knows that. It doesn't take much imagination (cetainly doesn't need psychic skills) to realise that can cause considerable strain and put people under additional pressures. I would expect a best friend to have some empathy, and want to help out, not add to the already considerable pressures.

[Jimjams2]

If I went to the house of someone who was ill, or for some reason hadn't been sleep deprived for years, or the house of someone with a new baby I would respect their need for sleep, and I wouldn't lounge around expecting to be waited on. It's only asking the same consideration in return.

[kickassangel]

pages, i'm with you on this. dh is terrible baout getting up, but has at last realised i should be allowed a lie in. as our room is above the lounge, then other people staying up does affect me.
just glad that before i had dd, when visiting my bf, who had 2 kids getting her up at night, i went to bed early, then did all the washing up for her the next day ebfore leaving. didn't want to be patronising, just flet i should do something to let her sit down for 5 mins.

[tigermoth]

pages, I'm sorry to hear your friend argued about it again today. I do think she was thoughtless, especially as you had told her very recently that you have problems sleeping. But I agree with those who say that mainly is it your dh who is the most responsible.

You say your friend felt upset and offended by your confrontation. Do you think she felt you were implying there was some flirtation going on between your dh and her? Indignation about this might have made her blind to the simple issue of your lack of sleep. And could this partly explain why your dh was also angry?

I know you say everyone in your circle can see you and your dh have a rock solid relationship, but perhaps your friend just can't comprehend your sleep problems as she has no children of her own, so has irrationally assumed you felt threatened that she was up talking to your dh.

I may be on the wrong track entirely but as this seems to have caused lots of upset all round, it's just a thought.

[Pages]

Tigermoth - you are on the wrong track...honestly! I wanted to point that out after LazyEmma said it because I wanted to stick to the point and not let the conversation go off on a tangent about something it is not about. I can honestly assure you that them "flirting" (LOL and I'll tell you why)was not an issue for any of the 3 of us and was not raised by anyone as we all know that it is not one. It really is only about the issues I describe.

But since we have now gone off on that tangent I will explain why it is not an issue. The only other thread I have posted about DH goes some way to explain this and if I could do links I would - it was a thread about him being irritable a lot and we Mnetters all came to the conclusion that it is because DH is such a hermit and doesn't like company much that he was like it. He has always also felt hugely socially responsible and I do feel I need to defend him a bit here because his relationship with bf is much more one sided than she realises. I knew that he would stay up if she did more out of duty because he would feel he had to. He is not a normal bloke in that he doesn't flirt with other women (I wish he would so he would realise how gorgeous he is) and he is almost too possessive with me. I actively encourage bf to have a friendship with him because quite frankly he doesn't have any other friends and I don't actually want to be his whole world all the time. His words when I told him bf was coming to stay, as they are every time were "Oh no, how long is she staying for?" It isn't personal, he just is not good socially and has always preferred it when it is just me and him. BF knows he is that way to a degree and we also have a very honest relationship so she knows it is not an issue. Although she doesn't realise that he doesn't like people staying really (anyone, not just her - I have another girl friend staying next week who is very pretty and single - bf has a long term partner btw - and when I was arranging it with her yesterday he was nudging me and shaking his head saying "no not another house guest".

So that gives you some idea about DH. He is not a normal bloke, I even have to persuade him to socialise with his own family.

Also, bf is the salt of the earth, she would never try and undermine me deliberately and I like that she thinks so much of my DH.

I do feel a bit sorry for DH getting so slated because although he is a lazy bugger about getting up in the a.m, given a choice he would definitely have preferred not to have to entertain my guest (as he sees it) and he wouldn't (90 per cent of the time anyway)have been up that late had she not been here. That is not meant to be casting blame it is just a fact. And before anyone pounces on DH for being disingenious it is not that simple for him. He tries to be sociable but finds it hard and he does genuinely like my bf - but he really does prefer the radio to most people a lot of the time including me!

[Pages]

And yes, Jimjams, bf knows how difficult my life is and one of the reasons I was looking froward to her coming is because I can't take the kids out on my own without another adult present and I had been stuck in the house a lot of Christmas as DH hasn't been well, so I was hoping we could get up early, leave DH to his own devices and do something together ie get out of the house with the kids(which didn't happen).

[Pages]

Also feel a bit affronte by the suggestion Lazyemma that there is no big deal about going to bed at 2 and getting up with the kids. But do yours wake you through the night? DS1 and DS2 both woke at least 3 times after DH and bf went to bed. DS1 gets up in the night and plays for two hours sometimes and DS2 is teething. I never get an uninterrupted nights sleep - ever. That is why I am tired. And that is why I shout at 2 a.m

[Pages]

And I can't discipline DS1 before anyone suggests Supernanny - he is 4 and can't talk or understand what I am saying to him

[Jimjams2]

pages I do understand- when you are living the way you do (and ds1 has been up since 2.45 today- which means I've had to be as well- and I know what that does to my temper ) and you have people who you think "get it" then they demostrate that they don't at all and are just like the rest (even if only momentarily), it's depressing and upsetting, and once again you are the one dealing with the whole lot of it. If I had someone staying here at the moment who tried to have a lie in today (our 2.45 am morning follows a 1am morning earlier in the week) I think I would be barely able to talk to them out of sheer disappointment once they dragged themselves out of bed.

Re- not being able to go out without someone else- know that as well- do you have help from social services- I applied for help when ds1 was 4, and we now get direct payments- I use them mainly to employ someone to help me with an extra pair of hands, so we can go out during holidays, can get ds1 a pair of shoes (2 person job) etc. It took about a year to organise, but I'd really recommend applying for direct payments. SS were sympathetic to the argument that being stuck in for weeks on end because of their brother was not good for ds2 and ds3.

[tigermoth]

Perhaps you could talk to your dh then? Spell it out to him how he can politely end a conversation with a guest so he can go to bed when he wants to. Or set his mobile so it rings at midnight to remind him! Then he has no reason to be kept up by a guest(and disturb you) till 2.00 am.

[Pages]

Thanks Jimjams, I will look into that. We do on occasion pay DS1s keyworker at nursery to take DS1 out so we can get some quality time with DS2 (or vice versa) so it would be nice if there was some help with that financially. I can physically do it by myself but it is stressful as they both want to get out of the buggy and walk but if I let them they both go in opposite directions! Neither will respond to a command to come here. It's a bit like having 16 month old twins.

And yes, Tigermoth, I think it is DH's lack of assertiveness (well probably both of ours actually) that has led to all this. I do feel better today as he acknowledged my upset last night and said he was sorry I was upset. But I do feel my bf could have been more thoughtful too. I would have been.

One of the reasons bf is upset is because another friend of mine had come two weeks earlier and we had had a brilliant weekend because she arrived early and was completely focused on my boys (she really wants kids but hasn't got any) and we went to bed earlyish(just because she does like I do) and we got up early the next day and had another great day out. I only told bf this in brief to explain that I was hoping for another weekend like that, hence my disappointment, and she has taken it that I am saying she SHOULD be like that, which I am not (though it would have been nice). My bf told me she was coming as soon as she got up but didn't arrive till 2 by which time it was raining and tehre were only 2 hours of daylight left, and the next day by the time she was up and had had breakfast it was time for her to go home as she had plans. So I was just a bit disappointed about the lack of togetherness and connection between us I guess, even though I do understand there is no reason why she should not come when she wants and spend the time as she wishes.

I kept stressing to her that I wasn't saying she SHOULD do anything, I was just telling her how I felt but she insisted before we put the phone done that I admit that she hadn't been unsupportive of me and that I admit she was "innocent". Which I did because I don't like her to be unhappy and my boys were crying for their tea. But it has left me feeling a bit "dismissed" by her as if my feelings were irrational and my stuff not hers. But hey ho, there you go.

[Jimjams2]

oh that's tricky pages- it sounds like she doesn't really get it which is a problem with a bf. I understand what you mean by the dismissive bit. When people used to go to bed during the day it left me feeling like a) they didn't care about the fact I'd had no sleep b) they didn't care about the fact that I never have any time at all and c) it hadn't occurred to them that it will always be like this. That when ds1 is 25 we'll still be responsible for getting up, for accompanying him to the bathroom etc It's like you're less important than a few hours sleep they can have at any time. I think when it was happening to us it was because the people concerned hadn't really recognised that our life was any different to theirs with children. Now we've got over that, but still very few people understand the feeling of point c) the sheer reletntlessness of it, with the knowledge that it will never go away, the thought that lie ins and naps are something that we'll never be entitled to.

[Jimjams2]

And sure that sounds envious- I am envious of people who will/have wave(d) bye bye to their completely independent children, who don't have to do all the getting up in the night, all the toiletting, all the supervision- (or live in the knowledge that it will get better and decrease). I have no problems with them having lie ins and rests and all the rest of the stuff they can do at home/on holiday, I just don't want them doing it in front of me.

[oliveoil]

I agree completely.

When I didn't have children (but had a social life) and stayed with my friend, I got up at 5.30am when her 'darling' angel poked me awake.

She was full of apologies but it was her house, I told her it wasn't the Hilton and I didn't expect peace and quiet.

[Blu]

Hmmm, well the fact that she was begging for an aquittal from you makes me think she has a guilty feeling somewhere!

Before I had a child of my own I often visited friends whio did have kids, and never behaved as if i was staying in a hotel. When you visit a friend as a houseguest you know you are going to be living in thier circumstances, and as a friend and guest, you should be as considerate as possible - not make a huge mess in the kitchen, not demand spagbol at 3am, and in some small way, act as a member a=of the household with regard to childcare! I regularly used to watch early morning tv with a freinds toddler, knowing that when i got back home I could have as many undisturbed lie-ins as I wanted! Yes it's your DH's main responsibility, but your friend sounds a bit insensitive, inconsiderate and selfish too.

But maybe that is my heartfelt view having had childless relatives to stay 4 days after we moved house just before Christmas, who also took naps and had lie-ins and didn't occupy DS for more than 3 mins to let us unpack!!!

[Jimjams2]

actually one of the funniest things I've heard is a (male) friend pleading with ds1 to go away at 6.30am No chance he wasn't going anywhere- except into bed with him

My friend had a guest who opened his bedroom window without my friends knowledge she only found out when her ds rushed in to tell her that his autistic sister was hanging out of it. She had hold of the window by her fingertips- she was about 8- my friend had to drag her in and bruised her dd's stomach doing it. Dangerous things guests

[oliveoil]

I think if you stay at someones house, you should get up and go to bed when they do.

And look after their children (if you don't have your own) so they can get a bit of peace.

Different thing, but at MIL's at Christmas, she was running around doing 100 things and all red-faced and politely asked someone if they needed anything, expecting them to say "oh no, I'll sort myself out", only for them to ask for a coffee and reach for the remote! Her face said it all.