"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ha ha Mypockets both are correct! It's a reference to the Specials song Too Much Too Young. I had my twins at 35 and instantly joined the "too many children to cope with" club

Hello folks. Need an ear to bash, or even just to listen if any of you are about?

So dad got out of hospital a couple of weeks ago and I haven't been to see him until today. I've been busy with dog training, housework, DIY, painting and decorating, sorting out my enrolment and funding for the OU. Went round to their place today. I have to go through the living room to get to dad's room. I walked through the door and into the living room, and the look on mum's face told me that she didn't want me there. I go into dad's room and relax and am comfortable chatting away to him.

Dad has been told he hasn't long to live. Probably another 6 months at most, but I expect it'll be before that. We're building our relationship and I told him that I love him and when he goes, he'll be OK. No pain, no suffering and we'll all be just fine. I told him that I'll always be with him and he'll always be in my heart. He said that he loved me too and he was so sorry for not sticking up for me more.

He got quite drowsy, so I left him to sleep and went in to the living room to chat to mum (being polite as usual). Mum did nothing but bitch about how I'll never get a job at 38yo as I'm too old to start a degree and get a job at the end of it. She said that dad's room was being painted, so I offered to give a hand, to which she replied quite bitchily "No thanks, we have it sorted. DB1 and DB3 will paint dad's room. You're not needed". The nurses came to see dad to change his bandages, so I told dad I was heading on home and hugged him and mum. Dad hugged back, but mum could barely bring herself to even lift a hand to hug back.

Just as I was leaving, the student nurse had to get something from her car. She said she noticed that mum was very frosty toward me, yet I seemed such a good, loving person. I told her that it has been like that since I can remember and that she seems to prefer my brothers over me. It's almost like I'm the council estate scumbag of the family and that my brothers are all so good as they have bought their own houses and have their own cars as well as good jobs. I'm the one living on a council estate, no car (been told not to drive until I get used to the side effects of the new med I was put on), no job (I'm studying psychology) and no chance of making this degree, apparently. I will show them how wrong they are. What they've failed to remember is that when they tell me that I can't/won't do something, I'll crack on and get it done. I was speaking to an old friend, who is a MH nurse at the nearest A&E dept. She says that unfortunately we can't pick who we're related to, but we can pick whether we want contact with them or not. We also need to do what is best for our own MH, to keep it on an even keel.

My BIL was in the house at the time and said "OMG Chiggers, you actually remember where your mum and dad live". I should have just turned on my heel and walked out, but I came to see dad, so that's what I did. Dad shut down and didn't want to talk about dying. I told him what I had said above. That he'll always be in my heart.

I'm just fed up with all this crap. I'm letting go slowly of the relationship with mum, so although the things she does do affect me, the effects are getting less and less. Eventually I'll not give a stuff about her, but I'll be keeping that under my hat and be polite and civil as normal.

My brother did say that I may not be getting anything in mum and dad's will. I just shrugged my shoulders and said that it wasn't my money anyway and they can do what they want with it. His face was furious looking as he knew that mum leaving me out of the will didn't bother me and that his tactics weren't working.

Like I say, I'm just fed up with all the ostracising and frostiness toward me. Apologies for the essay, I needed to get that out of my system. Thanks to anyone who was listening and reading this.

I am so sorry you are scapegoated by your family but it sounds like you are well rid. When your dad is no longer here do you think you will go no contact with the rest? I think it would do wonders for your mental health.

Chigger well done for speaking and acting with dignity. And well done to the student nurse who spoke up and gave you validation.
Give your dad what you are able to without losing yourself. I'm glad that you seem to have both made your peace.
I'm curious too about the other three.
Hold your head up and know that you will get there. You don't need their toxic mess.

Can I join in please?

Been signposted here from another thread I started as we are currently having serious, serious problems with MIL. DH is deep in FOG but told me tonight that neither of his parents have ever apologised to him. He quickly changed the subject and shut the conversation down

Since I started my thread, I've been googling and have scared myself silly about the effects all of this could have in our DC (have 3 - 3 and under)

DH is a very devoted Dad and generally a good husband but the PIL issues are causing us serious conflict and I am very stressed. I'm also terrified that DH might have narcissistic tendencies - although I don't know how much of his behaviour (essentially find it very difficult to apologise and to stand up to MIL) are as a reaction to his upbringing.

I'm very conscious however that this is not my problem to fix.

Not sure what anyone can say but thought this might be a safe place to come as - for obvious reasons (to me at least) - I'm not going to file divorce papers tomorrow

I saw your other thread gobbolino. What is it about your Dh which makes you think he may be narcissistic himself? He just seems deeply mired in this relationship from that thread tbh. Apart from the email which was fucking weird...

I'm worried that the fact that he's twisting and misremembering things and unable to see what has happened and apologise = narcissist

Mil definitely is. FIL is an enabler. I keep reading websites and thinking, Fuck. This is my life.

I'm really worried about exposing the DC to this.

Good morning all, have made some , so grab a cuppa, a seat and let it all out.

Goblin, welcome to the thread sweetheart. You and your thoughts are safe here and we are happy to help you out as much as we can, either by sharing our own experiences or through trying to help you figure out ways to cope with your situation as it changes.

AFAI can see, a narcissist may deliberately misremember events that happened because they ultimately do not want to remember their part in them. This would probably be due to their reluctance to acknowledge and therefore need to apologise for their part played, as they know that exposure for horrid actions is a big NO-NO. They have a façade to keep up, so anything that would expose the real person is an exercise in professional cover-up.

However, genuine misremembering, as far as I'm aware, is when parts of a person's memories are mixed up with other memories from around the same time to the actual memory in question IYSWIM. So your DH may well be a narcissist, or he could genuinely be confusing parts of a memory with another/others that happened close to the time of the memory in question. He probably finds it hard to apologise due to the way he was brought up. He sounds like he has been classically conditioned to behave in that manner due to his upbringing. After all, we tend to emulate what our parents do as they are our role models.

As children, we don't want to believe that our parents would lie to us, so we tend to take everything they say or do as gospel. It's when we get older and more mature that we look at our childhoods and either defend a horrid upbringing (the fundamental need to defend our primary carer) or we see the way 'normal' people have been raised as children and THEN understand that our childhoods were not normal IYSWIM. With that understanding, we can now take the first step on the road to recovery. That first step is incredibly hard because we don't want to shatter what we know. We don't like being told that we were raised 'abnormally' IYSWIM.

I must go, but I hope all you good folks are goingto keep your chin up and soldier on as usual

Hi all,
Hope you all have peaceful weekend those of you that are new to the NC and do not have any flying monkeys.
Bit of advice needed please. What would you do in essence. My mother and sister are continuing the campaign to cause me no end of stress which I am managing to an extent.

It appears from a text from one of them has sent to the EXH that they have no intention of stopping. Even after him telling them to stop trying to contact me and my DC's. I have in fact allowed the DC's to see them on the odd occasion they are with the EXH.

An opportunity has arisen where I may be able to move approximately 130 miles away. Its a location where I may have help with the DC's through the exH extended family. One DC is up for it the other is not as they are settled with school and friends etc.

I am very much stuck where I am with very little help unless I pay for it with my toxic family living not very far away and feel they can rock up when ever they fancy to cause me stress.

I am currently seeing a councillor who says I have to remove all of that from the equation and only go if its what I want and will make me happy.

I will actually have to report their disgusting behaviour eventually, which I am very reluctant to do because of the repercussions.

Advice please lovely stately homers...

Might as well rip the plaster off now angelwings. There needs to be consequences for their actions.

You need to report their disgusting behaviour now; their campaign of harassment will simply continue otherwise unabated. They've been on at you for a while now (I remember you posting before).

They probably think you can and will do nothing so also continue regardless. Being afraid of repercussions (but what would these really be; the fear is often worse than the reality) is understandable but the police will need to deal with them now, their behaviour is completely unacceptable.

Do you want to move that distance; what are exHs extended family like and how much help do you actually need?.

How old are your DC roughly; teens, junior school age?.

Hi Atilla,

Thank you for the reply. I can't really answer the questions as I will be outing myself on here. I have been thinking about moving that distance for a while and have spoken to those in question who are willing to assist. Before, after school, some in the holidays, I never go out as it would end up costing me loads, My eldest isn't really old enough to look after the younger one, not in my opinion. I can't go out for a walk, run, gym to see friends as I rarely have any time when they are not with me. As Ex H drags his feet having them and won't have them in the week so I can actually have a life. So I stopped asking. I don't trust anyone at the moment as have been let down so badly.

I have tried to get him to have them more, there is a court order to say he has them once in the week and every other weekend, this doesn't happen so eventually it will end up where he never sees them. I think anyway.

Angelwings

If your exH is not complying with the court order then he needs to be reported to the authorities.

People can promise all sorts and can actually do very little so that help may well not materialise. They may be willing to assist now but then you are still 130 odd miles from them, be very careful. Your exH could well use that as a further excuse not to bother with his children. Do you know anyone else in that area?. How solid really is your support network there?. I would certainly not want you to end up feeling further isolated; you sound isolated enough already.

He never has complied with it and done what the hell he likes really to a certain degree and if he doesn't like the tone of my message he doesn't reply.

I do see that as well re him using it as an excuse not to see the children but he takes them there anyway when he has them in the school holidays.

I do know others in the location and they would be willing to assist, it would not b massive difference to how my life is now, it would come also with its problems in other ways I am sure but I would be free it an extent from my toxic family.

I don't know if I should post on here as it is my PIL that are the problem but I hope no-one minds. I could rant and rant at how terribly they treated me during pregnancy and how horribly they have treated DP his whole life. Some of it is so seemingly trivial but they are classic narcissists and we have fought and fought for boundaries. They are nasty, selfish people who slag DP and I off behind our backs, have no interest in us beyond our DS (who DMIL refused to acknowledge until I was 34 weeks pregnant.) We live round the corner and every single time we see them or hear from them we feel negative. They came round today to nose at some work we have had done on the house. Normally we manage to see them every few weeks so it is bearable, but they want us to go round next weekend as other family members will be there, and we can't get out of it as we said we were free. The other family members are vile and abused DP as a child, but it goes unmentioned. I feel myself just burning with emotion because my hatred is so strong. They are cruel, bigoted, nasty people and they treat DP and I like shit but most of the obviously bad stuff was when we lived with them for a bit during pregnancy, and for the rest of my pregnancy. We have tried to distance ourselves and have done really well at stopping them just dropping in, but we both know that one day it will end in DP telling them everything they have done to hurt us, and we will fall out. I don't want to go round there next weekend with my sweet baby and have them ignore DP and I, use horrible language constantly, and have DMIL, who is a manipulative witch who single-handedly caused me ante-natal depression and DP to have counselling, using stupid baby talk and cooing over DS when she doesn't even deserve to see him. Sorry for the rant. I just had to. I wish I could just scream at her about the hell we go through and have been through, but she is so underhand that we would look like lunatics.

You both need to understand that you can say NO. Just because you are available does not mean you "have" to go to their house.

Make other plans and do not go. You also need to immediately start planning on how you can move as far away from them as possible.

Your DP must understand that he doesn't have to have anything to do with people who abuse him.

Why go back for more? Are you masochists? You are adults, do what you want and ignore their demands.

"Some of it is so seemingly trivial but they are classic narcissists and we have fought and fought for boundaries"

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. Narcissists will actively rail against any boundary you care to set them and will ignore these. This is why you have got nowhere with boundaries. Your own personal boundaries with these people are way way too low and they have taken full advantage.

You also need to put physical as well as mental distance between you and these people; they will hound you for the rest of your days otherwise. You need to move asap and not leave them any forwarding address. I can only assume your man persists at all with them because he has been specially trained (i.e. raised with narcissists); these are the only people that really bother with narcissists because they are really not worth bothering with or about.

You also need to keep your child well away from them, I cannot begin to stress how deplorably bad such people are as grandparents. They should not be visited; no is a complete sentence after all.

Turtle - what's worse, them thinking you are lunatics or you being sent lunatic by them?

My IL family have always used my dysfunctional upbringing against me to distract away from their own dysfunction (because they genuinely think there's nothing wrong with them). The IL family scapegoated me in far more insidious ways than my own, all the while presenting a false face to the world.

A year ago I had had enough. And went NC with MIL and one BIL.
They tipped me over into the abyss of a breakdown.
A year on, I know it was the best thing to do.
My boundaries had been way too low. I knew no better. I had been thoroughly trained by my own family.
Now I do know better.
I couldn't care less what they think. They hurt me badly. And they are not going to get the chance to hurt me any more.

Please take care of yourselves and your little one.

Thanks Francis and Attila. The thing is, when we lived with them, DMIL was much more overt but we were treading on eggshells all the time and if DP mildly annoyed her she would get DFIL to shout at him and they threatened to kick us out. So we put up with her pretending I didn't exist, talking over me, going in our room every day when we were out, interfering in everything and lots of just very weird behaviour (like taking DP's underwear out of my hands as I was loading into the machine so that she could do it). When we moved they were up all the time and walking around like they owned the place and just very disrespectful of our privacy, our feelings etc. I'm trying so hard to condense everything hence not giving many examples. We never stood up to them as we didn't want a big fall out, but DP's grandparents know the less worrying bits and are very supportive of us.

Since all this began DP has had counselling and realised that his childhood wasn't normal. His parents would probably deny this but if he told his grandparents they would be horrified.

They've really upset us so many times and so our time with them is limited and a bit tense, but we both partly want them to do something so outrageous that we can then walk away, at least for a while. They don't though. They are always just a bit shit but in the wider context of them having previously been real bastards. It would be so weird if we flipped out now over some tiny thing and went no contact!

Thanks whitehandled. Just need to look after DS for a bit... Will get back to you.

You just do not need to justify yourselves AT ALL. How exactly bad does it need to get? Would you tolerate their present and past behaviour from anyone else?

Isn't the fact that his grandparents would be horrified enough?

You are placating your abusers. Please stop.

Thanks for the advice. I don't know what we will do but it is good to hear other people saying we would be justified in not seeing them. We should have stood up to them at a time when they were doing things that were obviously hurtful. Now we just get pissed off with every little thing as we see it as a further sign that they don't give a shit about us, but none of it is actually that bad. They know we avoid seeing them and that things are frosty and sometimes they act like they know that and other times (like today) they act as if we are all friendly. It messes with our heads so much but they aren't really doing anything bad now! I can't deal with what feels like changing tactics. They gave DP a couple of really thoughtless crap gifts for his (big) birthday last week and guilt-tripped him about remembering where he came from, presumably as we hadn't made plans to spend his birthday with them. Today they didn't ask how his birthday was but turned up to see the work on our house and then said to come round next weekend. I don't know.... I'm rambling. I wish I could let it all go but I feel so much anger for the past and I don't want them thinking I am a mug and a pushover for just letting them be in our lives when they aren't very nice.

Agree with Francis - you don't need to explain or justify. In fact, that would give them the chance to use their warped logic on you. I know exactly what you mean when you say 'none of it is actually that bad'. But the sum total of the whole is exhausting and anger making.

Maybe some questions to ask of yourselves could be
'Do they add anything to our lives?' 'Do we feel drained in their company?' ' Do either of us experience anxiety, headaches, stomach aches etc before/after being with them?' 'Do we get irritated with each other after being with them?'

Basically is our life better with them or without them?

Do you ever look forward to seeing them or hearing from them?

Turtle I broke contact with my mother 6 months ago after a real "straw that broke the camel's back" incident - a small thing but suddenly I was like, I am not taking this shit any more, my kids are not taking this shit, and I'm not prepared to be who I need to be to survive my mother (a grey rock) in front of my children. And I've talked on here about wishing my mother would have done something extreme that I could point to but ultimately part of the process of healing from abuse is taking back the power to define what is and isn't acceptable behaviour toward you. My rule of thumb is, does this person have tour best interests at heart? And that of your children?

Hello everyone , just survived another milestone. it was my two year olds birthday celebration which since going nc with so called mother and so called sister, celebrations have been my weak point. But we had a lovely day with baby friends and a few family members.
Today I have had a flying monkey , txt from scs asking to see my 8 year old , her children apparently want my dd to sleep over , this is something she has never been invited to do before.
I think they want a reaction so they can start calling me unreasonable again. staying strong and not replying. Interesting that they havent asked to see my adorable 2 year old on her birthday ( she's adopted and I believe our approval to adoption has triggered them , "how dare someone who they think is so awful be approved to adopt" )
Stay strong everyone x