"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Do consider changing therapist. Is this person a member of a registered body of therapists, it may be worth contacting them too if this is the case.

Thanks atila :)

I'm glad to say that I don't have an issue with Dh at all. He has done incredibly well and never does any of that 'I'm in the middle of everything' thing that so many people with narcissistic parents do.

And I get that they are both screwed up by their FOO. I can see that with dh's surviving gm who is just like MIL.

I don't have any contact with MIL beyond our infrequent meetings. When she contacts me to ask questions designed to draw me into correspondence ('what size is dd now?' 'Um...She's two. What size do you think she might be?') I bat them straight to Dh. I've also worked very hard to stop MIL trying to draw my parents into her dramas e.g by calling them and leaving aggressive voice mail if she can't get hold of Dh which was a thing for a while.

Can anyone help me with a bit of a script for the following exchange:

MIL says to dd ' would you like to see more of your granny?' I say ....?

I can't quite get this right. It needs to be unemotional and factual and close her off. I am thinking something like 'dd doesn't have much of a say over how often we see people MIL. Asking her questions like that might make her feel bad - I'm sure you wouldn't want that.' But I can see that's not quite it...

MIL says to dd ' would you like to see more of your granny?' I say ....?

Loudly, clapping hands possibly, and standing up, you say:
'Darling DD, would you like some chocolate? Pop to the sweetie cupboard and choose something!' Followed by a low, whispered hissed aside to mil 'Don't you dare manipulate dd to get what you want!' Then a breezy 'Ah look clever dd, she's found the chocolate!' Sorry if that's a bit fanciful...but you did ask!

Or, also loudly, "Sure! Let's talk on the telephone with our diaries in a couple of weeks! (And change subject) Isn't it absolutely freezing today? Let's go for a walk after lunch."

I'm only too happy to hiss at MIL. I'd scratch her and bite if I thought it would help

There is sadly no chocolate cupboard. MIL is the meaniest meanie ever. Last time we visited dd asked her if she could maybe go to a charity shop and buy a few bits for her to dress up in when we visit. Other GM does this a lot - they love to spoil dd and fo get her stuff from shops too but it's ds's thing. MIL practically went purple at the idea of spending money.

Dm's thing sorry

Narnia,

Responses along the lines of what FantasticButtocks or AutumnHaze would be what I would use here if was asked. Again these are emotionally manipulative tactics from your MIL, see what I mean about the damage being done here right in front of your very eyes?. You cannot stop those incidences from happening short of not visiting. Those meetings you currently have certainly need to become more infrequent; you need to make yourselves busy and far more unavailable.

What does your DH make of his parents these days, how dose he feel
before, during and after a visit to these people?.

You've already seen a couple of generations on DHs side of the family affected by dysfunction; do not let your DD become the latest to be affected by narcissistic relatives!.

As an aside my MIL is tighter than a gnats bottom. Narcissists are also very disappointing as gift givers and such are rarely if every given without a degree of obligation attached to them anyway. Their lack of empathy here cannot be emphasised enough.

Sorry I wondered if I could comment on my posts just above here? Basically I've now blocked them both but I don't think dh is keen to block his mate. He feels that C is trying to make amends, whereas I don't, as I've explained up thread. It's his decision, although I do feel my feelings are coming 2nd to C's but how do I not become involved when it looks like dh wants to keep seeing him? Il still be hearing about them etc whereas I'd rather not hear/know a thing. I'm probably being unreasonable somewhere, all this stress with dh' illness I can't think straight. I just know those people really don't make me happy. Any thoughts please?

I'm sorry I'm unable to offer much help to others, I worry il say the wrong thing as I really don't have the confidence at the moment. I moved away from my mother and only hear from her if I make the call myself. It was a hard lesson to learn but basically I came to realise that I don't need such negative, gaslighting people in my life even if it was my own mum. It must be very difficult if you live closer yet go through these issues, and along with the added family members/flying monkeys that don't want you to upset the boat.

Atila- the gifts thing you've mentioned rings a bell with my mother. Usually nothing for the kids over the years, or obviously crap from cheapo shops (I'm not dissing these shops, but I knew my sister was getting branded clothes, an iPad etc so it wasn't a question of funds, it was the motive behind the presents) then dh got diagnosed with cancer last year and oh! The presents that arrived at Xmas! Nothing hugely extravagant but very much so in comparison to before. I was all because I guess it was to make herself feel better knowing she'd been a completely shit grandmother and oh dear now the little darlings dad might die.

Fucked me off tbh because it meant nothing you know? Take more than Lego to sort this shit out. Even the kids aren't bothered with her cos she's rarely had anything to do with them.

The thing about scratching or other violence is it could easily rebound on you. Depends on dv awareness where you are but what's to stop the person calling the police and overdramatizing the situation. Even if you just brush past her, she could dramatically fly and sprawl on the floor panting etc., putting you right back in the fog. More so if there is anyone else around to see. There is only one way: minimise contact. Teach your dd to duck and dive/ be unavailable for certain people by example. It gets easier with practice.

Sideburns, it sounds really tricky. I don't think you can prevent your Dh seeing C. Can you work out your boundaries/ see any positive aspects? Maybe it would take the load off a bit if dh has someone else to moan to? Would you prefer to hear about C while mostly tuning out, so you know basically what is happening? Or would total tune out when C comes up be better for you?

Autumn - thanks yes of course, I wouldn't want dh to do anything he wasn't 100% about, I just know I need to protect myself. I'm particularly fragile at the moment, this is probably making things worse I don't know. I know he used to mean a lot to dh, I think this is why it's so difficult. I've suggested to dh would it be possible to not involve me when they meet up - nothing else said apart from "guys fine thanks" type thing when asked and maybe that way my section of dh's life can be kept seperate to theirs, if that makes sense.

I'm not really going to scratch her autumnhaze! Just extrapolating from hissing!

I do lots of deflection at the moment. So changing the subject as you suggest. But I feel something more direct is called for now. I think something like 'dd isn't in charge of our visits mil. You need to talk to Dh. '

Hi everyone, just a quick update: my first flying monkey arrived this week. Thankfully I've been doing so much reading to make myself more self-aware recently, that I could see it for what it was and even laugh! That is a big improvement in itself!

The 'FM' was my DF, M's estranged EX-H who she rarely sees, speaks to and seems to generally despise. Despite him having a new partner he has always seemed strangely under her control, I've always thought that. As per previous posts, I have told him about the 'real' side of my childhood, but he has never discussed it further with me, or her, as far as I know.

Anyway, DF contacted me via email to let me know that a VERY distant relative was ill and DM was concerned that I didn't know. Now, this is laughable as it's someone I've met a handful of times and never kept in touch with - and whom she also dislikes! (she doesn't have much nice to say about many people). Not saying I don't care, but wd be unlikely to hold a vigil for iyswim. I already knew as well.

My DF only sent one line though, and it was almost apologetic & sounded like he'd been coerced into sending the message. I replied "thank you, yes I did know, via XX." No opening for further dialogue. I've had no response. Feel almost sorry for him getting involved, pathetic attempt to get me to contact her - for that's what it was, without explicitly saying so, as I think it was to generate sympathy for her - both for this relative's illness and that she couldn't tell me directly.

When I was younger I had inspectors come round as I spent so much time off sick from school. I really thought I was an unwell child, but now I realise that it was her creating it, telling me I was ill. I was often so confused by it. I nada weird sense of loyalty and remember hamming it up for the inspectors so she didn't get into trouble!!! She used to love the visitors and count the number of cards and gifts I got from well-wishers. She still thrives from mine/relatives/close friend's illnesses and dramatises the stories to gain sympathy for herself. I can see it for what it is though. It's been 5 weeks NC and feeling better for it. Not sure if this is narcissism or a version of munchausens...no idea.

Thanks for your support on this thread to keep me going .

Hi Turquoise

I may have an explanation re the last part of your post:-

With narcissists, there's also usually a fair element of "playing doctor," as well -- of childish sexual curiosity that may find expression in "seductive" behaviour towards the child, such as inappropriate touching of the genitals, or it can also come out as "hypochondrical" worries about the child's health and/or being most interested and attentive when the child is ill (thus teaching the child that the way to get Mother's kind attention is to get sick). Having a sick child can also be a way for the narcissistic mother to get the sympathetic attention of authority figures, such as doctors and teachers.

Hi , I had a flying monkey , thankyou to this site so i knew what was happening.

I was telling a friend at the weekend , we both believe that my mum may at some point try to take her life as a way of giving me ultimate blame for "the situation" im not being dramatic but her motivation to try and destroy me seems to know no limits. also my grandma and great grandma were given to great gestures like that .... thats why i have tolerated so much because of long family history of dysfunction..... but it stops here ....

i am having very vivid and disturbing dreams where i am writing letters then tearing up because they dont say what i want them to , they arent understood ......... i am exhausted x

best wishes everyone x

Autumn
I think something like 'dd isn't in charge of our visits mil. You need to talk to Dh. '

That sounds really good. Delivered in as bland a voice as possible, so she's not sure you're being sarcastic.

Steve really disappointed for you that your therapist is being an arse. You deserve a bit more bloody luck, really. Hope you get things sorted.

Port it sounds like it's working its way out of your head. That's probably good.

I've had a shit day or two probably to do with the anniversary of my dad's death not far away. But I think it's all good. My recovery has been a bit odd in that I went LC with my mother and gave up on her loving me when I was very young, but then I just kind of got on with life from there. I've never really been through the emotions associated with giving up on ever having a loving mother and a happy childhood, but I've been at therapy for what 3 months now? And the emotions are finally starting to surface, and it's mostly anger. Jesus. Why, why it had to be so shit. And also a side order of all the people who've been shite to me over the years, me and my "please bully me" face, and also the last 10 years or so that have been just... hard. Hard life events. I guess that's what I'm at therapy for but it's really shit and it's hard at the moment to believe in my gut that it's going to make anything better, even though I know this is one of the stages you need to go through.

Anyway, chin up, hope you're all doing OK today

for you all.
too much it will get better. It will. Anger is good. Ride it. Acknowledge it and allow yourself to feel it. I find swearing the sweariest words I can think of, in the car, really therapeutic.

Hope you are feeling a bit better today toomuch, it is a lot to come to terms with, I know. It's not just the acknowledgement, it's the realisation that it has probably affected the way you let other people treat you as well. .

Attila, that's very interesting, I have been wondering as it was like a type of hypochondria. In recent years, she came to help after I had a v personal operation, which I asked her not to share with anyone. I think you can all guess what happened with that . And the net effect was that she was the hero for helping me! My DH could have coped fine and I'd have rathered have no help than it broadcast amongst her friends, but hey.

Too old thanks - I am going to use that wording with zero emotion. And she is going to go fucking apeshit. But c'est la vie tbh. She needs a reality check.

Talked to Dh and we agreed that it should probably be me. He is really willing to tackle her but their arguments always become very 'naggy mum deals with stroppy teen'. For obvious reasons.

Tooold I think you need to be angry for the child you were. I get very angry for Dh and for BIL and even SIL whose upbringing made her who she is. And sometimes for MIL tbh although I can't let that get in the way of policing her behaviour around my family.

Turquoise I think the attention generated by illness is very seductive for narcissists. MIL certainly has a number of very serious illnesses that have yet to be recognised and treated adequately by HCPs :) Yours sounds a step beyond that though. Into full blown munchausens by proxy. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that that is linked to borderline personalities though. It's bloody odd. I think the difference between munchausens and hypochondria is that hypochondriacs really believe they are ill. Often they are too worried to see a doctor or talk about it. Whereas munchausens is all about the attention.

Actually toomuch is a nicer way if abbreviating your name isn't it?!

It's really got me thinking ever since the message arrived of distant relative's illness and I've though about how much pleasure she derives from sympathy for other's problems.

I remember she would always give me 3 solpadol tablets when I was a child as she said I had such bad headaches I needed more than most people. I really thought I must do, as she told me I did, so carried that on until at university, when friends all took 2 MAXIMUM and couldn't believe I' always done that. She told me to never tell the doctor how much I really took and I was given it regularly.

She gave me valium after she would have one of her aggressive/violent/EA episodes, to calm me down and help me sleep. I didn't know I shouldn't be taking it as a child! She told me it was from her dentist and perfectly safe.

She was convinced I had glandular fever, loads of times. I think you can only have it once... a doctor once intervened and thought I had psychosomatic symptoms or needed psychiatric assessment as I was so often ill (she used to ask the dr. for morphine for me and he couldn't work out what was causing me so much pain). She was outraged and therefore I too was offended. Sounds so silly, but I don't think I really ever believed I was so seriously ill as she thought, but I went along with it as I believed her 'diagnoses', she must be right, what did I know?!

I definitely did get a lot of attention when I was ill and got to see homeopaths, osteos, kinesiologists, acupuncturists, dieticians... as well as doctors. No shortage of treatment.

I'm cringing at these memories, putting them together. How did I not know this wasn't normal? and then at the same time, I'm thinking maybe I am making too big deal of this and it's not that bad in the grand scheme of things. Quite confusing to know what to think. Hope I'm not boring you all here! Sorry.

I was never 100% clear what narcissism was but found this short vid helpful. Interesting greatist.com/live/narcissistic-personality-traits

How did I not know this was normal?

You were a child. She was training you very intensively. Give yourself a break [kitkat]

Oh my Turquoise there is no way that you could have known that this was not normal. You were young and relied on her to care for you, to help you grow and develop. She failed you big time.
Thank god you got away to uni. And had the chance to see how other people live. I swear that the only reason that I managed to cope with some of my life crap was that I escaped from home too.
And you are not making a big deal of it. This is massive, massive dysfunction on her part.
Well done you for recognising it. Don't apologise. She was poisoning you both physically and mentally.