"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry for all the use of "!!" I reread the thread and it makes me sound excited more than angry (?)

I'm impressed so many of you all in Stately Homes were able to find partners/spouses despite the wack parents and the wack childhoods. That was something I was never able to experience and causes the deepest pain for me.

howcani - my parents expected me to do well with no support. It was a given that I would be ok. I was left to find my own way academically. I scraped through my A levels at a time when my father was increasing his level of violence towards my mother. She left,in the middle of my A levels, taking one of my siblings with her. I was expected to deal with an incompetent, abusive father, my younger siblings, a mother who expected me to negotiate between her and him and my studies.
No one asked how I was. No one noticed.
I managed to get myself away to do my first degree.
But for many, many years I thought I was stupid. Even though I was successful in the work I went into post graduation.
In my mid forties I left my job and retrained in the field I originally wanted to enter all those years ago.
I passed with distinction and my husband and son were there to see me graduate. I felt so proud. I had proved to myself that I wasn't stupid. I had beaten my demon.
My parents had taken for granted that I would do well because that was the role they assigned me. Because it reflected well on them. It gave then validation. Not because they cared about me.

The point I am making here howcani is that there are choices all around us.
You have nothing to prove to your parents, but the ghost of their judgements are living with you.
Maybe take some time to really think about exactly what it is you want. (If it helps, start with what you don't want and work up). It doesn't have to be work/study related.
And have a look at why you find it so hard to criticise things that have undoubtedly damaged you. With respect, you may at some point want to question how your parents have demonstrated that they are good people.

I got four As in my A levels and my dads only question was, 'Well what did everyone else get?' Nothing has ever been good enough, I will certainly never be thin enough. I try to think about what I want and I don't know. I don't even know what I like. I know I want to be a good mum but it feels impossible when I have such internal chaos and turmoil.

Hi all,

Mid term lurker here. I'm posting for advice about PILs a bit. I hope that's OK?

MIL is classic narcissist. We are quite LC since the birth of DD nearly 6 yrs ago when MIL was absolutely vile. We also have a ds of 2.5.

DH is a total star and I have no idea how he has managed to be given how awful MIL is. FIL is just a very withdrawn negative man who has no emotional relationships with anyone. Think classic trainspotter stereotype. DH has two older siblings - DBIL is a bit mini-me of FIL but manages OK because DSIL is lovely. SIL is mini-me of MIL and can have an argument on her own in a locked room.

Anyway, we are pretty LC, see PILs about every 2 months. And they have been largely in line following a huge row when DD was about a year old in which I made it v clear to MIL that I wasn't having any of her shit. SInce then I just block attempts to be aggressive/passive aggressive. DH finds it really hard because he tends to slip back into arguing with her in a teenager/adult dynamic (which is obviously what she wants). He doesn't find it hard to tell her where to get off though. HE has done lots of work on getting through the FOG and he is totally out the other side.

So we just saw PILs and it was pretty awful again. Lots of remarks about never seeing us, starting to try the same on DD (she's fucking 5 - should she drive down to you?), and a really aggressive remark about how she (MIL) could have got us into a local attraction we had paid quite a lot to go to free 'if you'd been nice to me'.

I kind of think she's forgotten her place!

SO I suppose my question is - she clearly needs the boundaries reinforced. I don't think we're ready for NC. I'm guessing that an e-mail or text pre next meeting just plays into her need for drama. So do we just deal with comments as they arise next time? Or does she need punishing? (I tend to teat her as I would a toddler who is out of control - if I didn't actually give a shit about said toddler - so lots of really hardline boundary enforcing). Or something else?

I know NC would be possibly easier but we're just not there yet. They are handleable. Would really appreciate some input on this from the wise people here.

Hello me again
I keep reading and running so thankyou for all the positives i have recieved, We are at home today with lovely littlie and big girl who is grumpy and bored while getting over a sick bug so no school today, have played many games while littlie is asleep and now taking some time out. reflecting again on how different my child hood was to my children's.
my big girl (8) said to me last week while i was cutting her nails "mummy do i make you happy ?" i replied that yes i am happy and was very proud of her but that it wasn't her job to make me happy, that was my job ! it was such a shock to me , she said sometimes i look very sad, i said sometimes when i tired or busy i forget to smile but i am very happy, she replied , "except when grandma shouted at you" , she heard the last argument when she was in bed after a baby sitting night . I asked my mum not to create an atmosphere when the children were around and if she couldnt pretend to like me then we wouldn't be spending time together. My daughter heard my mum shouting, im so cross again that my children have had this in their lifes and glad we dont see my scm anymore.

Poor children they are lovely kids

me and Dh had an argument on saturday , while tidying kitchen he put too much in kitchen drawer and it jambed, i could hear him pulling it and i went through to help , after much tugging and poking he decided to yank it , that did it ! it also hit me in the face and i now have nice bruised nose. i lost it and started to cry asking him why he did such a stupid thing , he said he asked me to move , i didnt hear him. queue me crying and an argument.

again feelings of guilt , that we arged , that im not perfect :( x

Narnia

"SO I suppose my question is - she clearly needs the boundaries reinforced. I don't think we're ready for NC. I'm guessing that an e-mail or text pre next meeting just plays into her need for drama. So do we just deal with comments as they arise next time? Or does she need punishing? (I tend to teat her as I would a toddler who is out of control - if I didn't actually give a shit about said toddler - so lots of really hardline boundary enforcing). Or something else?
I know NC would be possibly easier but we're just not there yet. They are handleable. Would really appreciate some input on this from the wise people here".

People get into disputes with narcissists over their casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.

TBH it would be far easier for your family unit to now go no contact with them. If you are really not ready for that (was wondering why that is; are you afraid of a further backlash from them?) then further reduce the current level of contact you have with them. A boundary you can set yourself here is cutting the visit to them every two months into once every six months.

Your FIL is really her hatchet man here; he cannot be at all relied upon. Your description of him reminded me of my late FIL (he was a narcissist as well). Women like your MIL cannot do relationships so the man in their lives is either narcissistic himself or is long gone. He is really a weak man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He also sacrificed his now adult children's wellbeing at her alter; such men also need someone to idolise.

Certainly do not contact her further by any means let alone e-mail; that sort of thing just opens you up into receiving more abuse and fuels her own need for histrionics and dramas.

They are not handleable. Any boundaries you try and reinforce with her will be roundly ignored and disregarded. They have already been ignored by her and she is not above starting on your eldest child already. I would urge you not to keep putting yourselves in her firing line; no good will come of it. You need to fully join your H on the other side of the FOG.

It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs.

There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

Narcissists have normal, even superior, intellectual development while remaining emotionally and morally immature. Dealing with them can give you the sense of trying to have a reasonable discussion with a very clever six-year-old -- this is an age when normal children are grandiose and exhibitionistic, when they are very resistant to taking the blame for their own misbehaviour, when they understand what the rules are (e.g., that lying, cheating, and stealing are prohibited) but are still trying to wriggle out of accepting those rules for themselves. This is the year, by the way, when children were traditionally thought to reach the age of reason and when first communions (and first confessions) were made.

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when something more interesting comes along.

Toddlers grow up; your MIL is stuck at around the emotional age of 6. It is NOT, repeat NOT, possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. They are truly past masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again".

port

Am also glad to read that you do not see your so called mother any longer either.

Your children are very perceptive; you can rightly be proud of them and they are a credit to you. You are doing right by them by protecting them from malign influences.

Hope you feel better soon. Be kind to yourself; after all no-one is perfect (even though my MIL thinks she is, LOL!).

Thanks Atila, wise words.

I kind of know the modus operandi thanks to a few lurky years on Relationships and a friend who is a therapist And I understand that there is no meaningful relationship for anyone to have with them and no 'good times' either (Jeez how I understand that).

I suppose in part we don't want to go NC because dh isn't ready to be completely NC and because actually I think for the DC having a relationship where they have a good idea what the GPs are like but no emotional FOG feelings might work better than NC which they might then wonder/fantasise about.

The PILs had a massive fight with one set of their parents when DH was young and he then didn't see his GPS on that side until many years later when one of them died and the other was in the final stages of dementia - it's one of the many things he is angry about in his childhood. (That of course isn't to say the same about anyone's being NC with toxic people which is clearly a very good choice. I can see that it might happen with us at a later stage - we're just not there yet.)

I get that I can't change them too. And FIL is more of a problem than I have possibly made him seem - he is a massive misogynist, horrible to MIL, complains in a 'jokey but actually I am serious' way about her cooking etc. Utterly useless with the children. After our last visit DH and I spent a while trying to work out what he is actually FOR.

Your advice about further reducing contact is good. That's something we are actively trying to do in the longer term. MIL is only really bothered because she thinks the DCs see the other GPs more than her. If she knew that we see them at least once every three days for a visit of two or three days, she'd hit the roof.

I suppose what I want to understand is how best to reimpose the boundaries, how best to police them and what to say when MIL starts to try to train DD up in the FOG. I think MIL WAS afraid of me (and maybe a bit of DH) for a while there and that made her, as you say, positively fawning and certainly wary of making unpleasant comments in earshot. I think that's as good as we're going to get.

Can I come here and moan from time to time? I realise that might be irritating if I'm resisting NC but I just don't think the time is right for us...

We see the other GPS once every three weeks for a visit of two or three days.

Narnia - I've read your posts with interest. I wonder how you are managing to let your children have a relationship with the GPs and knowing what they are like? How have you explained it to them? Mine are still far too young to do this, but I'm like you, I am not ready for NC.

My MIL has been driving me nuts when I have overheard recent phone conversations by repeatedly asking my eldest (2) if she has been a good girl. Firstly, what is she going to say, and secondly she's a toddler for crying out loud. I hate her labelling of children as "good". Trying to take deep breaths and tell myself it's just a turn of phrase. Of course she turned a conversation round to herself by saying how unwell she felt after what sounds like something that I would have considered a good day!!

It never ceases to astonish me how similar they all are Lili! My MIL loves a bit of 'are you going to be a good girl for granny?' And when DH had pretty major surgery she spent six months describing symptoms that were like his. Almost as though she had, y'know, googled it and then just lied a lot. She even tried to get her Dr to send her for scans and stuff. :)

I will have to think a lot more about how to police this for DD because I cannot let it impact on her. I think partly it's just the low contact. Someone you see very infrequently just isn't a close relative.

I pick her up on things when she speaks to DD. So - when she was 2 MIL might say 'are you going to be a good girl for granny?' And I would say - 'DD is 2 MIL. She is incapable of making moral choices to be good or bad'. Or nowadays I know that DD is absolutely supremely uninterested in being 'good' in that sense (kind, brave, generous, all of those things but not 'good' as applied to a person) because we talk a lot about that kind of language and how it's used to keep children in line and about how people aren't good or bad but they can behave in good and bad ways. So I guess a lot of it is about just her being quite emotionally intelligent (DD I mean, not MIL, DS is more emotionally evolved than MIL and he isn't potty trained yet).

And then we also talk about things that have been said afterwards. 'I noticed that MIL said this to you DD, was that OK?' We've had some very interesting conversations about that.

I might just avail myself of a pointy stick next time we visit and train her as you would a ferocious lion in a circus in 1824. IT'S SO BLOODY WEARING.

But thanks for saying we shouldn't email Atila - that's very useful advice. I had thought that was the case but it's good to have it spelt out. It's tempting because then we can have the fall out at arms length (rather than in my kitchen) I am also wondering about meeting halfway on neutral territory so that we can eat and run away but I am going to have to have a visit in the next few months because we've had some building work done and she's desperate to find fault with see it

Narnia,

re your comment:-
"I suppose in part we don't want to go NC because dh isn't ready to be completely NC and because actually I think for the DC having a relationship where they have a good idea what the GPs are like but no emotional FOG feelings might work better than NC which they might then wonder/fantasise about".

Why is your DH not ready to be completely NC?. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances (that is what your DH is perhaps not realising here). People like your MIL will emotionally harm your children right in front of your very eyes. Talking about it afterwards is all very well but its also too late.

Your own reasons here re the children is very much flawed; they are already seeing all too clearly what she is like. You have to protect them from such malign influences; they will not get anything good out of having such a person like your MIL at all in your lives. Such people usually under value or over value the relationship with the grandchildren to further get back at you as parents. I cannot emphasise enough how deplorably bad as grandparents models these people actually are.

Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

Your children are dependent on your good sense and wisdom.

My BIL has done those behaviours you describe re doctors as well; I have been told he is very well read. And yes he is a narcissist as well.

Why does she have to visit you at all, you do not have to invite her over to your home.

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different.

Narnia

Re your comment:-

"I suppose what I want to understand is how best to reimpose the boundaries, how best to police them and what to say when MIL starts to try to train DD up in the FOG. I think MIL WAS afraid of me (and maybe a bit of DH) for a while there and that made her, as you say, positively fawning and certainly wary of making unpleasant comments in earshot. I think that's as good as we're going to get. "

Its hard to have a simply uncomplicated time with a narcissist; your last part is correct and that is about as good as it is going to be with these people. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists.

There are usually a favoured few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check.

Reimposing as well as policing boundaries is going to be an exercise in frustration. Do not do this to yourself. Do not keep wandering into the lion's den and certainly run away fast when they start to act at all "normal", perhaps expressing a little self doubt and or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They're just softening you up for something really nasty!!.

Your ILs are really not worth bothering with at all. You are getting nothing from it and neither are your children.

Attila, I wonder if Narnia is facing the same quandary as me - having been brought up in a well-functioning family where you are taught love and respect, it is a real shock to marry into a less well-functioning family. My tendency is always to try to give people benefit of the doubt and see the best in them. I find it really difficult that MIL is so hard to warm to and I feel myself making excuses for her in my head. Big sigh.....at least when these families live some distance away we are not having to "police" contact too often.

Lilipot,

It is indeed a shock when you realise that the man you've married has a highly dysfunctional family of origin. I've come from a more healthy family of origin myself but I do not give family members the benefit of the doubt nor was I taught to only see the best in them.

The underlying issues only became really obvious once we became parents. I went onto learn that my late FIL was a narcissist and cottoned onto the fact a few years later his wife is also narcissistic in terms of personality although more covert. We had no real relationship to speak of re FIL; I certainly relate to Narnia's comment re her FIL i.e. what is he for?.

I maintain a low level of contact with MIL and do not ever visit her alone nor talk to her on the phone. I don't think DH really is aware or actually notices the lack of relationship between MIL and me.

Hi all, I've posted in here a fair bit, I wondered if anyone remembered me? I've been wanting to ask advice regarding a 'friendship' I have for a long time, as I believe that my reasons for persisting with such treatment stems from the relationship I had with my mother and I would really appreciate thoughts and advice. I hope this is ok to put here, I'm feeling fragile at the moment and didn't want to be ripped to pieces. It will probably be too long so I apologise now and will try to keep things straightforward.

I met my Dh over a decade ago and we got together straight away. Dh had a best mate - C, and C got a girlfriend not long after dh and I got together (il call her B). I got on really well with C, and considered him a good friend for many years. B was always very quiet and didn't speak much but we got on. Occasionally we would meet up for an evening and have wine etc. for the first couple of years everything was ok and I felt Id made a friend (id moved 200 miles away from home to a city.) B is 2 years older than me, this may be relevant. Anyway after 4 years Dh and I had our 1st child. We were living in a council flat at the time, and after a while we were lucky to be offered a house a few miles away. Granted it was on an estate that had a bit of a rep but we were happy and excited. Incidentally C already lived on this estate, with his mum in an ex council house they had bought. I remember texting my friend B, and she replied about how nasty the area was and how "she wouldn't want to bring her kids up there". (She doesn't have kids but really wants them). Anyway this comment was just to bring me down wasn't it? I texted Dh, and he was by now working at the same place as C so he said to him "Christ did she have to say that?!" Obv C was pissed that she'd made such a comment, and also took it personally because he lives there. He said something because she later on replied and apologised to me, but it wasn't really an apology as she was clear to mention that C lived in 'the nice bit'. I remember her laughing at me as when ds was a few days old and I was very sore (3rd degree tear repair) and tired, Dh and I were struggling to get a wriggly baby in his snowsuit. C was there and obv told her this when he got home.

We moved in, and not long after I was pregnant with our 2nd. I remember B being round one evening - it was hard to keep things separate as Dh and C were best mates, and they'd want to meet up. In hindsight I shouldn't have bothered with B after the first put down but I was keen for us all to get on for some reason. This occasion she was moaning that she'd put on 4lbs over xmas, then said "I know that's nothing compared to you" and did that wavy hand thing up and down my body... I was that shocked I was speechless.

There have been more - Dh and I got engaged, she commented on how 'small' and 'dainty' my ring was. Why not just say ooh lovely, congrats? When we got married we just had a tiny reg office do, just us and the kids and 2 witnesses. I didn't buy a special dress etc as I didn't want all that, we just kept it secret and got married one morning! They came round to celebrate with us a few days later. When dh and C were out of the room she started "oh I'm DEF having a wedding dress, you can't get married without doing it PROPERLY" etc etc you get the picture. More put downs. Always out of earshot of my Dh and C, so when I have tried pulling her up on it she gaslights me and makes out I'm over sensitive, making it up or too easily offended.

Sorry there's more - Dh is very good at his trade so a few years ago decided to go it alone. His dad was able to loan him the start up costs as we didn't have much in the way of savings, and we kept it quiet until he handed his notice in in case it fell through. When C found out he stopped talking to us, didn't bother with the kids anymore (he had been 'uncle C' to them) and that was it for 2 years. They invited all our mutual friends to their wedding but not us. Dh was incredibly upset and couldn't understand why his 'best mate' had dropped him.

Dh worked hard and we were able to save for a deposit for a very first own home. How excited we were! We spent the next few months renovating etc, it felt like things were really turning around for us. Then Dh is diagnosed with cancer 3 weeks before we move in. You can imagine how the bottom just fell out of my world. We were then on the chemo treadmill and have only just finished that. During this time C found out, so got in touch with Dh. He obv told B, but she didn't ask how I was - she sent me a text saying "how's the house coming along"?! Dh and C met up a few times, they cleared the air to some extent, C said he was gutted Dh didnt tell him about the business first, or involve him, and said he thought they were going to buy a flat together to rent out. That was the first Id heard, and like Dh replied - if he had a deposit for that didn't C think his first priority would be to house his family?! We really didn't have that kind of money so I've no idea where this came from. Dh said it was prob one of those 'if I win the lottery I'll do this' type conversations.

We're a couple of months on now and Dh recently met up with C. He broke the news the B is now pregnant. I'm dreading all the smug texts etc and how she'll do better than we did, how she's doing it 'properly' as they got married first etc. She makes out she's all sweetness and light to my face, but has nasty comments when I presume she's been jealous and wants to make herself feel better. She shows fake concern for Dh with the occasional text but I make non committal replies. She will text me soon to break the news (C told us but said she didn't know) and I'm so itching to let rip but I guess the best thing is to keep my dignity instead. A lot is anger that people can be so spiteful about all the good things in your life, yet get what they want and God forbid I should make a comment back because then she will turn it around so it's always my fault. Dh has never been anything but positive, friendly, encouraging and it all seems so unfair.

Apologies if I'm rambling. Why am I so bothered about keeping this frenemy? I preferred it when we heard nothing for 2 years, and I actually feel sick at the thought of them knowing my business etc again. Dh says if it causes distress we can leave it fizzle out as before but I know he mourns the old friendship, although my take was that if Dh really meant anything to C then no way would their friendship have gone the way it did. I'm also sad to say that I think had Dh not been diagnosed C wouldn't have got in touch, and I honestly feel it's only so he doesn't feel like a terrible person should Dh die and him not be seen as his 'friend'. Does this make sense?

I feel a bit like B reminds me of my mother and I'm embarrassed to say that when she'd want to meet up Id really look forward to it etc even though Id often feel crap afterwards. Why do I place so much importance on her opinion of me? Why do I want to keep trying even though I end up feeling so low about myself?

I'm so sorry for hijacking, I've tried unravelling this myself so many times but can't figure it out. I'm worried it's making me bitter when I jst need to concentrate on helping Dh through the cancer treatment and then hopefully recovery. I'm just dreading her bragging texts and I don't have her number to block her. Il be expected to be happy even though she's hurt me a lot.

Any help would be very much appreciated. I need to let all this go I know.

Omg that's massive, I do apologise I just wanted to get the main bits down and somewhere I feel safe to post. Please delete if it's inappropriate

Hi Guy. First of all, you won't get 'ripped to shreds' here, as that doesn't happen on this thread because it is for support.

I have come across one or two people who've become 'friends', and then the more I've got to know them, the more I've realised that some of the ways they behave remind me of my own toxic mother's behaviour. Once I realise how they trigger associated feelings in me, I have taken several steps back from them and disentangled myself.

I would disengage from B, and go with your DH's suggestion of letting these people fizzle out of your life. Life is too damned short to waste your time and emotions on people like this. Just steer clear.

It's not inappropriate if it's making you feel bad. I think she sounds like a difficult person to have around and a person who doesn't provide a positive influence on your life. She is a frenemy indeed, or more simply an enemy. I think you should fade her out, as DH says. You don't have to be friends with someone who makes you feel bad, you owe her nothing, life is too short. Do what amkes you feel happy.

I think I'm going to need the support of you lovely lot over the coming weeks. I'll do my best to be supportive to you all, but sadly I've failed to live by own advice. I've just read through each and every post and I'm gratful to not feel alone in my toxic mother daughter relationship.

I posted a thread about my mother and I last night: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2577020-Parents-split-for-13-years-apparently-I-shouldnt-see-my-dad-out-of-respect-for-my-mum-WTF?

So I won't go into drastic details as nobody needs to see that written twice in its gory details but sufficed to say I'm drained. I am literally exhausted with the relationship we've had my entire life. Even now, when the truth is out in the open that I'm seeing my dad and my step family, I still feel guilty, because she's conditioned me to see her as the wounded party.

She's trying so hard to manipulate me, saying she won't shout and get angry but that we need to talk because I must see how I've hurt her... Like I'm a moron and I couldn't understand that someone who's been bitter and twisted about their previous relationship for the last 13 years would feel angry that I've done exactly what she's been conditioning me to not do by telling me she'll kill herself. Sigh... This is going to get so much worse isn't it?

Thank you. It means a lot to me that you have validated my feelings because gaslighting really confuses you doesn't it. I felt it was my fault. She'd said I was too sensitive and I guess maybe that couldve been correct on occasion but all the time? And why would I be 'too sensitive' but only where she was concerned? Wasn't all coincidence was it?

I'd feel bad though as I know Dh would miss his mate but I do think that ship sailed years ago, and I guess they didn't speak for those 2 years anyway. if his 'best mate' couldn't tell him how he felt then what does that say? I remember C came into money a few years ago, not once did Dh say anything other than 'well done'! I didn't understand why C couldn't have just been happy for Dh and supportive as friends should be. I guess maybe there's no point in me even trying to understand why. Also C obv did what he liked with the money, there was nothing stopping him from going it alone and no chat at all about Dh having a say in it, and rightly so.

She def doesn't bring anything positive to my life! I don't know why I'm bothered that we weren't proper friends, or that she just didn't like me. She doesn't do this with anyone else as far as I'm aware, she very much comes across as naive, shy, very girly wouldn't hurt a fly kind of thing, very offended by swearing etc. but then has quite a venomous tongue.

I'm rambling now, sorry. I'm just glad it's not me.

Yes Lili my family are pretty functional and AMAZING GPs. My mum is a wonderful GM. It does throw it into sharp relief - for DD as well I think.

I get that NC would be a good idea at some stage. We're not there though. So any advice on how best to police the LC would be really appreciated. How do you do it with your MIL Atila?

Orangesox I think you have an incredibly clearcut example of YANBU - SIBU here! It's not your job to support your mother, it IS her job to support you. I'm sorry she can't see that.

Narnia

Thought you had come from a functional family of origin. You really though cannot and must not ever apply the "normal" rules of familial relations to people like your MIL. The rulebook really does go out the window when it comes to such dysfunctional families like your DHs. After all he has had a lifetime of such conditioning.

Really the best thing you can yourself do for your child is to keep her away from people like your ILs. Sorry to keep going on about it!.

Am glad to read that the other grandparents are nice; tbh I would focus all forthcoming efforts on them because you will get precisely nowhere with your MIL. BTW its not your fault that your MIL and FIL are the ways they are; neither your DH or you made them that way. Their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them.

I set my own boundaries re MIL (she would want to ignore any I set her because she is narcissistic):-

Not relying on her for anything
Telling her NO personal information
No phone calls
No e-mails
No visits to her without DH (they are bad enough already going with him let along without him!)
Killing her with kindness i.e. saying hello first so that she has to acknowledge me (because otherwise she would not do so, its all HELLLOOOO DH and DS with me not getting any acknowledgement otherwise).
Picking DH up on any behaviours that are basically enabling ones.

These are consistently maintained and self reviewed by me on a semi annual basis.

Still waiting for second therapy session. Numerous cancellations by other side, then I receive a letter giving me a cutoff to arrange something.

Flabbergasted, seriously thinking of asking to change therapist!