"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[portinastorm]

hi - bad day today , thoughts keep going back to what has happened and realisation that i cant make them understand how they have made me feel or make them change.... their cruelty has been very hard for me to understand... fighting depression and trying to concentrate on what good things i have
all the best everyone

[pocketsaviour]

Hello Port sorry you're feeling low. Can you do something nice for yourself tonight - a favourite meal, watch an old favourite TV or film, hot bath with posh bubbles? Sometimes when I feel really low I curl up with my teddy bear and talk to him as if he was my inner child, reassuring little Pockets that I will always protect her

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

port

Sorry you feel so rubbish today

Its not you, its them.

Be kind to yourself.

[purplepandas]

Thanks to all those who replied. I can't go NC for lots of reasons but I am stepping back. I am fed up of having to explain everything I do and why I make decisions that I do. Already had a snippy conversation today but I am choosing to ignore. I refuse to rise to the bait and I tell myself this makes me the bigger person. I don't mean condone poor behaviour, just not engage any more. Life is too short.

I think a more hands off approach will be good for all. The DC do love DM and DF) and I would hate to stand in their way. If I ever see poor behaviour towards them directly then I will act. I am ever observant!

Sounds like many of you are having a hard time, so for all. I still don't feel that I really belong here as mostly things are fine. I can see that this is not the case for many others. I really do appreciate the chance to chat here and be among those who understand. Thanks.

[toomuchtooold]

Turquoise I was talking to my therapist about that (not wanting to turn into my mother) today. I am sometimes very shouty with the girls and I absolutely hate it, but here are a few things that make me feel better (so hopefully you too)

• our kids are not growing up with abuse and dysfunction, so the odd shouty episode, while it feels like the end of the world to us, can be water off a duck's back to them (and to test this, think: are they scared to disobey you? Or do they keep doing the same stuff even after a telling off? Frustrating as it is, the fact that they sometimes choose to go against us is a sign they're not scared)
  
• anger probably wasn't allowed in your house (for anyone other than your mother) so you feel unloveable and awful when you're angry, but your kids don't feel like that about you, and you are allowed to be angry
  
• a big one for me is that I'm deeply uncomfortable when I see my DD1 picking up my mood and adjusting her behaviour. We were getting changed after swimming and she was starting to faff and I was getting pissed off but I didn't say anything, just my body language must have changed because she said "are you still happy, mummy?" and I felt really bad (and also very nostalgic for the good old days when they were babies and didn't have a clue as long as you could plaster a smile on your face for them.) And you know, I learned to read people very well because of my mum and her crazy moods, and the idea that my girl is having to read me is really uncomfortable. But then empathy is a human skill, and I am her parent, and I'm not a doormat - she should use me as a place to learn how to read people's moods, and she should slowly become aware that her behaviour has an effect on other people's moods. It's fine! For them. For us, deeply uncomfortable
  

And your friend, no disrespect to her, is basically talking to herself in that conversation. She doesn't get where you are coming from at all. It's hard to listen to though, isn't it? We're trained to doubt ourselves, to second guess.

[toomuchtooold]

port . Hope you feel better soon.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

purplepandas

Re your earlier messages about your parents I would stay well away from this toxic twosome. Also I think you are still in a degree of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to them. Things are not anywhere near fine re you and they at all and that has been the case for many years.

You cannot apply "normal" rules of familial interaction to people who are dysfunctional, that rule book goes out the window when it comes to dysfunctional families. None of this "being the bigger person" stuff; tell any "flying monkeys" (i.e. people who try and pressure you to appease or make peace with your parents etc) to get lost!.

Low contact is something you could try but I think they will try and push your boundaries by overstepping and or ignoring them. I would certainly look at further raising your boundaries along with consistently applying them.

I would also keep your children well away from them too. Have you considered that your mother may well have some form of personality disorder; emotionally healthy people do not act like she has done. Your father has also played roles here in your family of origin's overall dysfunction; he has acted as her enabler and bystander throughout and has failed to protect you from her mad excesses of behaviour. He is also culpable here. Neither of them really wanted to change or ever sought the necessary help for their problems. They just blamed you and your sister instead for their inherent ills.

Do not forget either that such toxic crap like this can go down the generations; do not let the next generation here i.e. your children be so affected.

A good rule of thumb here is that if they are too toxic/difficult for you to deal with, its the same for your both vulnerable and defenceless children as well. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different. They were not good parents to you, they are and will not be good grandparent figures to your children either. You can certainly remain vigilant in their presence but it won't do you any good. Honestly its not worth putting your children anywhere near them, the harm will be done right in front of your very eyes.

People like your mother and father never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. This is how such toxic people operate. Its their way or no way as far as they are concerned.

[FantasticButtocks]

toomychtooold I loved your last post, makes so much sense to me. That when we are angry we feel unlovable, and it's devastating.

I have been well away from my mother for over 15 years and I'm still bothered by all this stuff my lovely DDs are in their twenties, and I'm still amazed (and delighted) that they actually like me and love me, and they show it. I'm grateful that the pattern hasn't been continued. In fact it is I who have stopped it.

When I think of my mother's position, I can't think of anything worse than to have fallen out with either of my daughters, let alone to have them not want to be in contact with me. To be in your 70s and your only daughter doesn't want anything to do with you? I know it is bothering her and that she sees it as me 'ruining' her old age. In her position I'd do anything to put things right. Unfortunately she is ill equipped to even have a clue how to do that. Her previous 'attempts' have been ridiculous as she can't help herself from being the poisonous and utterly narcissistic person she is, always everything about her. I'm sad for her because she's so deluded and I'm sad for me too, but I wasn't going to allow mine and my daughters lives to be blighted by her poison. Oops, rambling on now, better post...

[TurquoiseSongbird]

Toomuch, that does make sense, definitely. Yes, I was very much afraid to express my anger, or really very much other than thank you, sorry and niceties. My DC are more than happy to play up, haha . Maybe next time I should see it as a compliment?! When I get cross with them it really plays to my anxieties and I do feel unloveable.

Having a better day than yesterday, my youngest DS just said 'my favourite place is next to your favourite place, next to you'.

Anyway, thank you, food for thought...

[GoodtoBetter]

When I think of my mother's position, I can't think of anything worse than to have fallen out with either of my daughters, let alone to have them not want to be in contact with me. To be in your 70s and your only daughter doesn't want anything to do with you? I know it is bothering her and that she sees it as me 'ruining' her old age. In her position I'd do anything to put things right. Unfortunately she is ill equipped to even have a clue how to do that. Her previous 'attempts' have been ridiculous as she can't help herself from being the poisonous and utterly narcissistic person she is, always everything about her. I'm sad for her because she's so deluded and I'm sad for me too, but I wasn't going to allow mine and my daughters lives to be blighted by her poison.

I could have written this myself. Totally get it. I've just set up a forwarding of all M's e mails to a specific new address that is only for that purpose, so I won't even see them any more. Had a last session with the therapist after a year's break and decided to follow his advice: to decide to be glad that she won't apologise as I don't want her in my life anyway. I don't actually want her to apologise any more, which means it's OK. I can enjoy NC.

[howcanikeepdoingthis]

Please can I ask your advice. I understand this is a long standing thread and I don't know how appropriate it is to just wade in? I hope its ok.

I'm struggling and I have always struggled. Have spent my adult life in and out of psych hospitals. I'm diagnosed bipolar, personality disorder, eating disorder to name a few. Basically I seem to be at war with myself yet in between times function highly.

I'm trying to work it out and figure out how I ended up this way so I can better protect my beautiful children from the same emotional pain. My question is if you have siblings who are fine do you blame yourself for being too sensitive. I find it hard to criticize things that have undoubtedly damaged me when my siblings are fine.

[whitehandledkitchenknife]

howcani - I didn't just want to read and run. I don't have any specific strategies to offer but want to say that anyone who is wanting to protect their children from the struggles that you have faced and are continuing to face, is a very worthwhile human being.
It may be that your siblings also struggle but do so in less obvious ways. I also think that once diagnoses are in place we can sometimes become defined by them. I'm not suggesting for one moment that you do. You seem a caring and sentient person. Sometimes that sensitivity is just too much for anyone person to carry. Particularly if you come from a family where you weren't seen or heard, where there was shaming and parentifying going on.
Comparing yourself to your siblings may not be the best way forward.
My siblings are all undoubtedly very damaged, as am I, but I'm the one who has had breakdowns and bouts of depression. They have expressed their damage through selfishness,aggression and arrogance.
I recognise the being 'at war with myself' and also function highly when all is calm. I suspect that it will be a lifelong thing.
The curious thing about siblings, is that whilst we may have a similar genetic mix and have been exposed to similar environmental influences, there is still an enormous variation in how we manage/d the levels of dysfunction that we were brought up in.
Keep taking good care of yourself and be proud of your awareness and desire to do right by your little ones.

[howcanikeepdoingthis]

Thank you so much, lots to think about. I cant bring myself to read the thread, I feel so guilty. My parents are good people and I think have just tried to do what is best. I have always thought I am damaged, maybe even evil and that my problems are my fault. Its through some work with a psychologist that I began to wonder if maybe the pressure I was under through my childhood and lots of invalidation has led to my belief I am never good enough. I don't know how I feel about my family but I am scared and guilty for portioning any blame at their door. Does that make any sense?

[Lilipot15]

Ps I will take some time during night feeds (I have quite some time of that!) to read the rest of the thread and links.

[whitehandledkitchenknife]

Hi howcani
It sounds like you have taken the whole world on your shoulders and that is just too much for one person.
I very much doubt that you are evil or that your problems are your fault.
Yes, there is damage, but do you know what? ……I don't know anyone who isn't wounded, one way or another.

Has anyone ever said to you 'I like you just because?' That you are ok just the way you are? Not because you are pretty or clever or sporty or kind or whatever. Has anyone really seen you or heard you?
Who do you turn to for reassurance? Do you believe that reassurance?

Has all your validation been through what you have achieved/not achieved?
Does/did your family rely on you being a 'good girl'?
Was there pressure, implied or explicit to not shame the family?
Was there pressure to do well at school?
Were/are you expected to mind read your parents moods/needs?
Were/are you expected to be a 'big girl' and not ask for or expect anything of your parents?
Do your parents expect to be taken care of? Be obeyed without question?
Who has soothed you when you were/are sad?

Sometimes it helps to look at the unwritten rules that exist in your family. Whose voice is the loudest? Whose rules are the law? How do those rules get laid down? What are the consequences if those rules are 'broken'?

That's an awful lot of questions and you don't have to answer them.
Maybe just mull them over in your own good time?

(and don't worry about not reading the thread - you don't have to)

[toomuchtooold]

lili it's hard to judge from one incident but yes, your MIL's behaviour does seem quite unfriendly and cold. I'm in no way qualified to do anything but if you're thinking Alzheimer's, one thing I will say is that my dad who had mild/moderate Alzheimer's before he died, relied a lot on scripts - like he knew what to do and say in a familiar context, getting on the bus, going round the shops, very basic small talk - but if you tried to have a deeper conversation he was lost and would just fall silent. So you know, it is a thing. My dad went to the GP with his symptoms and as well as testing for Alzheimer's they checked his kidney function and all that sort of stuff, and assessed him for depression as well as sending him for a brain scan. They're quite good. But it's a matter of persuading her...

One thing stood out in your post - I feel very uneasy about family arguments and concerned that I have caused a problem by telling him about this episode

If you think there's a chance that there was abuse or dysfunction in your DH's family of origin, don't ever ever feel bad about telling him about your MiL's behaviour. A lot of abusive people triangulate - say different things to different people to try and set them against each other - and honesty between you and your DH will stop that from working.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Lili

Its not your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way. Nor for that matter did her son, your DH.

Whose idea was it to visit them in the first instance?. Honestly I would completely finish with all that; if you do go to visit them then stay in a nearby hotel instead. If they never come to stay with you either then I would stop making invitations to them because they will be refused anyway. Given her overall lack of interest in you all as a family I am wondering why you choose to see them at all.

What does your DH think of his mother these days, what sort of a relationship do they have?. What was life like for him growing up?.

You're right in one respect; she is mentally ill but not I daresay in the ways you think. She may well have some sort of untreated - and untreatable personality disorder. Also she has been like this for many years; its just that you've never really noticed it up till now. The fact that she has always had a difficult pattern of behaviour with your DH also makes me not think of anything like Alzheimers.

I have also seen a family member with a brain tumour at close hand; that scenario was totally and completely different to what you describe here.

Its sounds like your MIL is completely lacking in empathy. You are not responsible for her happiness or lack of. She probably only fusses over your children because they are both very young; when they are older and can answer her back she will likely lose interest in them. She seems already far more interested in your DH's cousins which makes me also think that you people are really the scapegoats for all her inherent ills. If I was upset I doubt very much if she would pass me any tissues either. She could have done more to help, she did not want to.

My MIL shows no interest in me whatsoever, never asks after me (and asks very little about DS) when my DH calls her.

How to support your DH here - I would talk to him more about his mother and talk to him about her latest episode towards you.

I would certainly agree with toomuchtooold's comment:-

"A lot of abusive people triangulate - say different things to different people to try and set them against each other - and honesty between you and your DH will stop that from working".

[Lilipot15]

Attila and Toomuch - thanks for your thoughts. I've actually asked MNHQ to delete my post as I suddenly feel worried in case DH sees it (he knows I started a thread on a fun topic and I know he uses MN to get baby sleep advice!) and he is a very private person. If they do this I'll post a more succinct and coherent version with a new name.

It is helpful just to sound off. Whilst every family has issues, mine included, this one seems increasingly odd. But on reflection I think I am noticing it more and also really considering what my children are exposed to. There does seem to be some scapegoating and lying and I think his sister who is quite enmeshed with his mum stirs it up. She is becoming increasingly cold and disinterested in us as well. They both like the children still and shower them with gifts (which is another issue, I don't feel they need as many things).

We went to visit as we both feel that we want them to be involved as grandparents (they don't have any other grandchildren and are unlikely to do so as sibs both older and single) and also in the vague hope that we might have some help and rest!! Ha! I've learnt my lesson there. There was a really bizarre episode of poor timekeeping on his family's part which in my family would have been laughed off as a misunderstanding, but here, he was blamed. In his eyes it was 3 of them against him. Awful to see this as an adult, it seems more like nasty playground stuff.

What is has been helpful for though is having more open discussions with DH about things. He sadly feels that they have been like this a long time, favouring his sister and criticising him and accusing him of being difficult. He is honestly one of the calmest, most sensible and empathic people I know and works at a high level in a job which requires these skills so I know I'm not just viewing him with rose-tinted glasses. His colleagues (who I trust) also tell me how good he is in his role. He is a great husband and dad as well so I suppose I need to keep emphasising that and that we support him and he has his own family unit now.

I guess I feel concerned though that if she was depressed, she could be helped, but DH is adamant that any conversation from us would exacerbate the problem.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Lili

Your DHs family unit now are the scapegoats for all their inherent ills.

His mother is unhappy yes but not in the ways you have thought. They find it easier to blame others for their inherent ills.

You likely come fortunately from a family that are emotionally healthy and functioning; your DH is and has not been so lucky here. Its very hard for people who come from "nice" families to even comprehend that people do behave like this at all let alone seeing it at first hand.

His sister is really a carbon copy of her mother; she is the favoured "golden child". The golden child role is also a role not without price but his sister is unaware of those ramifications. Its of no surprise to me at all that his mother has been like this for a long time; all this dysfunction within their family began long ago and before their own children were born.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; look more closely at the roles being played out here.

Re your comment that I have separated out a bit more:-

"We went to visit as we both feel that we want them to be involved as grandparents (they don't have any other grandchildren and are unlikely to do so as sibs both older and single) and also in the vague hope that we might have some help and rest!! Ha! I've learnt my lesson there".

The first part of your sentence is basically no reason, let alone a good reason, to keep them involved in your lives. They are frankly not good grandparent role models. Your DH is likely still very much in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to his family of origin.

Your children and you people need decent healthy role models as family members, not those who shower your children with gifts (their affections are effectively being bought, this is all really conditional) and have no real interest in either of you as these children's mum and dad. And if you want help and rest they are really not the people to at all ask; at least you realise that now.

"There was a really bizarre episode of poor timekeeping on his family's part which in my family would have been laughed off as a misunderstanding, but here, he was blamed. In his eyes it was 3 of them against him. Awful to see this as an adult, it seems more like nasty playground stuff".

Its more than just nasty playground stuff; this is how dysfunctional family systems operate. You probably felt very disturbed to see your DH so ganged up on. Such families like your DHs attack what they see as the "weaker" member - in this case your H who they have made the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

Your DH is right; any conversation about her behaviour would further exacerbate things; do not forget that for such toxic people the best form of defence is attack. Also such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions; his mother does not and never will believe that she has done anything wrong here.

The best thing for you to do here is to live well as a family unit and without his family of origin in any aspect of your lives. That may seem extreme but they will harm you and by turn children if you expose them to all this crap. Toxic stuff like this can and does go down the generations; you've already seen how he and his sister have been affected.

I would read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward as a starting point.

Do continue to read and post here.

[Lilipot15]

Attila - thanks. I will take some time to digest it all. DH and I have realised we need to look after ourselves a bit more here. And I will do some reading to support him. Don't get me wrong, my own family are by no means perfect but we care and can talk about important things when required.

I was thinking about how I have always found MIL difficult to engage in conversation. Again I'd thought it was just me being exhausted, at home looking after two tinies and in that phase of life. And also I felt some pressure to have her "approve" of me, so I imagined I was a bit anxious and therefore less good at the conversation bit! But the more I think about it, I work in a customer-facing role and usually have no problem at all making conversation with all sorts of people, the more I wonder if it's something inherent in her that she is very difficult to make conversation with, if she is so-minded not to make an effort, which is how it seems here. Bit equally I wonder if she is anxious and struggles....again I am making excuses!!

[whitehandledkitchenknife]

Lili - I just want to second and endorse what Toomuch and Attila are saying here. I am in awe at their abilities to pinpoint so eloquently what is going on.
You are fortunate that both you and DH have an awareness of something not right and can work as a team.
The scapegoat role is something I am very familiar with and I would add just one extra thing. Be very aware if DH's family attempt to separate him off from you and try to put you into the role alone. Any attempt to alter the family dynamic away from their 'norm' is likely to be met with an amazing array of tactics to get him (especially) and you back into line.
It may well be that DH will need to be prepared to do the lion's share of directly defending your little family, as intervention by yourself is likely to be pounced on and attacked, because you're not 'family'.
Don't make excuses for her. Her anxieties are not your problem or your fault.
I too work in a front facing role and, as I'm sure you are, am good at it.
My MIL is a real piece of work, who has controlled her children in sneakily appalling ways.
It's taken me 30 years to get DH to see what is going on. I would not want anyone else to go through what I have.

[Lilipot15]

I just wanted to say thank you for the replies. As I explained above I was worried in case DH saw my first post as he is so private and I think he may know my username as normally I post about less personal things like baby sleep and the Archers!!

The replies have been very helpful. The more I consider things the more I remember things that MIL has said (or not said) and done that are really odd. And whilst we all may say clumsy things at times. some of the things she's said should have been followed up by a "gosh, I can't believe I just said that...what was I thinking....am so sorry if I caused offence". But as someone pointed out above she won't think she's said or done anything wrong.

We're both feeling quite emotionally drained. I realise how I am so exhausted, spending time with someone who rarely smiles, gives no warmth and pretty much acts like I am not there. Still it could be a lot worse as we don't actually need to see them much. Thanks again and when I can I will work out how to make change and see if I can post a more succinct version of my first post in case it may help anyone else.

[howcanikeepdoingthis]

Thank you so much white.

I can identify with a lot of what you asked. My identity when growing up was founded in being successful. I dramatically bombed out of a career in medicine and have carried the feeling of failure since then. I never feel good enough. Countless examples of things my parents said to this effect are held in my memory. I daren't share them as I'm scared my mum may see. Is there anyway to move on and feel differently about yourself. I want my girls to believe in themselves but I don't think I can ever be the example.

[jenkait]

Hi there!

I wrote on mumsnet a year ago about my toxic mother and got some very good advice that made me think. I was thinking what to do if I had a child, should I let the child see my mother so they could develop a relationship (not for my mother's sake!! for my my child's). I have been thinking about what people said and it was very enlightening. Honestly I thought everyone would tell me "OF COURSE you should, it's only fair to the child." I was surprised and actually relieved this is not the case. This was my post (it's long!)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2412940-horrible-past-with-mother-how-do-I-handle-a-possible-future

Well, at the moment I am almost 7months pregnant, and I had decided to hold back and see what my mother did, and ONLY let her see the child with my supervision (say at a park with me reading nearby) IF she acknowledged how she'd messed my siblings and I around in those early years. Honestly I doubt she ever would so this probably still would never happen! BUT...something just happened three weeks ago that solidified my NO, NEVER will she ever see my child, for my child's sake!!!!

In my original post I wrote that when my grandma broke her hip last year, she let me know what happened and maintained a civil conversation. That had given me hope! What I hadn't included was that in 2014 when my grandma was hospitalized for fluid on the lungs she DIDN'T contact me...and when I asked her what ward at the hospital my grandma was in. She refused to tell me and said, "You're a nurse, you figure it out!" Well I can't go looking at hospital records to find a family member, or I'd get fired. A friend of mine who works at that hospital ended up going early and looking in all the rooms for me and finding my grandma for me. Yes, this is life with my mother!! The other thing to add is that within weeks of writing that post, my sister contacted my Dad and they have been a maintaining a relationship since!

So last month, my sister (Sister) was hit by a car on a Tuesday (see botton: SHE WILL BE OKAY!!). I didn't find out until the Friday though, as my mother had told Brother and Grandma not to tell me or our Dad. I had been calling Grandma all the Friday and she wasn't answering, and I coudln't decide if she had her TV headphones on or if she had fallen and broken another hip?? When Brother finally told me it was via a text message at 9pm at night, that eloquently stated, "Sister was mowed down by a drunk driver on Tuesday and is in the ICU". Remember I'm 6 months pregnant at this point, I almost went into labor!! He added they'd thought she'd died at first(??!) I said "why didn't you tell me?!" He said, "Mom said not to! But just so you know, I told Mom we should've, I didn't agree with this at all!!" I said, "Why didn't you do what YOU thought was right?" he had no answer. My grandma was very apologetic she didn't tell me, but she's 90+ and lives with my mother and mom could make her life miserable so...I wasn't happy but yeah. I did say to Brother, "Well if nothing else it's been made crystal clear to me that Mom will NOT be seeing my son!" His reply: "Fine by me, I am so sick of this family and it's stupid f-ing secrets." So he gets it, but you'll notice he's not out of our mother's grasp is he!

I didn't want to beleaguer my poor sister with the subject, she was totally out of it at first, even trying to give me directions to the hospital (where I was used to work, etc.) The only thing she did say was "Oh, I didn't think people wanted to bother you because you were pregnant". ??? Well Dad isn't pregnant! And if you want to be gentle with a pregnant person you don't send a TEXT three days later!! I'm not sure if the thing about Mom not seeing her grandson came up or what, but later my grandma (who believes what my mother says) told me, "Oh it wasn't your mom who didn't want to tell you! Sister didn't want to tell you OR Other Brother!" I said, "But by Friday Other Brother had already visited twice with his girlfriend, so...someone DID tell Brother and Other Brother, and not me, so that CAN'T be true!!" Gotta ove how my Mom was then throwing Sister under the bus! FWIW, Mom had already gone phone shopping to get my sister a new phone (hers smashed in her pocket) before allowing Brother to tell me.

...This all sounds so completely ridiculous when I write it out... But there you have it, folks! Mom just made the decision SO EASY for me... After everything else she's done, if she'll ALSO not tell me when a family member is seriously hurt and in the ICU...she's not seeing her grandchild!! At least I have some clarity now. Thanks everyone for reading.

**And while I'm writing to mumsnet about what affected ME, of course the most important thing is my sister's experience!! (It's just not relevant on the stately homes thread.) Sister has a broken back, both sides of her pelvis broken, and a broken shoulder in 3 places. Luckily no head of spinal cord injury, and she has already taken a few steps. She WILL be okay! It's just going to take time, but the dr said she should recover. Also, the driver was drunk, she was in a crosswalk, and it was witnessed by numerous people, including an off-duty police officer, and the person has been charged.