"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

"How can 2 people have such a catastrophic effect on our relationship with our own daughter??"

Its terrible and I have heard of that happening. Its because your DHs parents are both narcissists; it goes without saying that your children must not have any further contact with them. That pingu thing they've put up for DC3 is a part of their ongoing plan to steal the heart and mind of DC3. Its again very typical of narcissists; they are deplorably bad grandparent figures. They've already assigned them roles; their son and your two children by your first marriage as scapegoats and DC3 as their golden child.

Re your comment:-
"As for my mother, we are going to the wedding as we've all been looking forward to it for a long time and she's not going to ruin it for us. I have not been to any family events for the whole time I have been NC with her but why should I be ousted as the black sheep I have done nothing wrong".

No you have not done anything wrong but how are the wider family members?. Do you maintain relations with them?. Whose side did they fall down on; did these people become your mother's flying monkeys?. FMs only act in their best interests, certainly not yours and such people are really not your friend.

NC is precisely that, this is why I suggested not attending the wedding. My concern is that your mother will go see you and go all out to make it all about her and tear you apart even by glancing at you (she probably will not speak to you). You will not be able to tell her to F off because you may well feel emotionally cowed by and in her presence.

What was SFs response to your phone call, he seems very much like her enabler and in any case cannot be at all relied upon. He may well be as toxic as your mother is and has acted throughout out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

I hope it goes off alright for you all on Saturday; you are going to have to put a plan in place (a code word to your DH if necessary) for you to all leave if it all goes pear shaped.

hi Atilla how did you decide to handle the ignoring MIL in the end ?

sorry - of course I mean Attila my thumbs too big for technology !

Omg I've only just come across this thread, haven't read it all but found the initial post and suggested responses so helpful! Without relaying the entire story I was also a scapegoated child, labelled 'bad' and they 'must be right' as they agree everything is my fault (parents and siblings). I survive by not seeing my sister at all, limiting contact with brother and only having boundaried chats with parents eg gardening, cooking, nothing contentious. I'll never 'win' by trying to be understood so I just try and manage as best I can to protect myself instead. Thanks again for having the thread here.

665

Thanks for asking after me.

Well I have thought it through some more and have decided to continue to do the same as I always do with her anyway i.e. to keep on ignoring MIL but kill her with kindness upon any infrequent visits to her (I have noticed that if I get my greeting in first, particularly within earshot of DH, she has to and does respond in kind).

At least DH and I do not receive separate Christmas cards from her any longer (I hit the roof at DH one night about that subject some years back but he maintains even now that he did not speak to his mother about that) so that's a small victory in my mind.

justdontaskhowiam

Welcome.

so that's a small victory in my mind. I think the small victories turn out to be the things that keep us going most of all. I'm glad you have found a way to see a win in this.
just - hi !

Thanks for all the replies and validation

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

I don't know where to start. New poster to this board and the above rings true when I see some of the awful things people have been subjected to. And I am not even sure I want to go where my mind is going at the minute.

But I am feeling so very sad today after a conversation with a close family friend last night. [This person was very close to us and was a witness a lot of my things, part of the family more or less].

I think she herself was in a bad place and perhaps said a few things she didn't mean to last night, but some of what she said has kind of confirmed suspicions that have been growing in my mind about some of the dysfunction in my family as I was growing up. And a lot of it I think is feeding into how I am at present: I live with a lot of anxiety and depression, kind of swinging between the two, and I never feel "safe" or "secure" in myself or in my life. I don't know who I am.

I would have said that I had a mostly happy childhood, with things going really wrong when I was in my early teens, with a sibling 5+ years older. On hindsight, I am increasingly realising that I was the golden child and my sibling was the scapegoat and that my mum definitely had issues relating to control and boundaries and seeing her children as an extension of herself.

She had a distant father and a controlling mother herself so it was all just a continuation of a toxic situation I think. all that mattered was appearance, the appearance of success and conformity, and how things looked to outsiders. To this day I feel very unsure of my identity....as if I was somehow not let be who I was meant to be? if that makes sense? which at 37 years old is a bit fucking tragic. But I definitely spent my formative years craving approval and fearing failure/disappointing my parents. And it has left me feeling quite "stuck".

My dad, although kind and generous almost to a fault [as was mum to many people] didn't really stand up and be counted: it was anything for an easy life so mum's word ruled.

This resulted in various enormous ructions/family estrangements with my sibling, parents and I that were barely patched up before mum died twelve years ago. I was heavily involved with the caring for my mother and the situation blew apart the decade that was my 20s. I spent it in a fog of responsibility, stress and grief.

And because she has been gone so long, in some ways I have felt freer to live my life but at the same time, with time and distance, I am re-evaluating a lot of things about my first 25 years, and I can see that a lot of things were maybe manipulated and situations were created where truths were bent and twisted a bit. And I didn't realise it at the time because of the illness and responsibilities on my shoulders.

The result of all the dysfunction is that I have no relationship with my sibling [technically only a half sibling, his father died when he was two, mum remarried and I came along when he was 6]. To be fair, we have very different characters anyway, so we might never have been close, but I am wondering know how much was manipulated to set us off against each other from our teen years onwards. And I wonder whether or not it was deliberate or whether she really didn't know what it was she was doing.

I have a fairly superficial relationship with my dad who I do love dearly and genuinely like as a person, but who I think has the emotional intelligence of a lemon. He just doesn't get me at all.

I don't want to write off my whole childhood because I know there were very many happy times and I loved my parents....but I know there was also a big element of love and approval being somewhat conditional.

I feel really fucked up today. Sorry for the word vomit, it just all kinda fell out.

Hi all, a quick question for you:

How would you react and feel if you bumped into someone you were NC with in the street and they said hello to you? Has this happened to you?

This just happened to me. It was the first time I'd seen this person since going NC about 3 years ago. I didn't reply to their hello, I sort of did a forced smile and carried on. My stomach feels all fluttery and not in a good way, and I'm shaking.

QueenCarpet I would look slightly past them using my death stare. This happened to me last summer and I felt good because I didn't pretend and I didn't engage.

As this is my first second, see above I'm not going to say that it wasn't bad for me because it was.

Dad was by turns tender then very violent but never with my Mum and most often with me, mainly because, try as I might, I couldn't keep my big mouth shut.

Mum was a classic narc, the definition could have been written for her. She would excuse and minimise his behaviour, as a child I was once brave enough to take myself to the local Police station, battered and needing medical attention. Mum turned up to make excuses, apologies, I was 'troubled' and 'difficult'. The Policeman gave me a stern talking to and sent me home. I was 12.

I've been lurking on these threads for years but reading through sometimes just opening the threads always used to make me cry so I didn't feel I could post.

I've name changed.

The time is looming for me to go NC with my parents but I worry I've left it too late. They are getting old now although my Mother in particular is no less vicious I can see a time looming when they will need me. So I feel guilty but to quote Queen 'God knows I want to break free'.

Has anyone else experienced this? Did you stay or go?

MissRepair I wish the person hadn't taken me by surprise. Had I been prepared I wouldn't have even looked at them. I have to go out again shortly and my lovely DH is going to pop home from work to give me a lift so I don't have to risk bumping into them again. It makes me feel a bit pathetic in a way, but at the same time I know he knows if I see them again it could send me on a downward spiral.

I'm sorry the police didn't take you seriously as a child, reading that gave me chills. I've gone NC with all of my side of the family except for one elderly lovely relative. My parents are getting towards the age where they might need me, but for me it's a case of, they didn't take care of me and they don't deserve my care in return. I'm pretty much over the guilt now, but when you're in the midst of it, it's hard.

Queen carpet - this is really tough. Taken by surprise, I annoyingly either give an auto hello/smile - it's just an auto response!

I constantly have issues with bumping into family. Just the other day I saw one of my siblings, but as I saw him first, I could go elsewhere and avoid.

DH tells me to practice seeing them, practice a response/look, to be prepared. Lines like 'I have nothing to say to you' or 'I don't want to talk' or anything you feel comfortable with.

I hate the ambush of a surprise meeting.

Missrepair - it's never too late to leave. Start living your own life without guilt and be free.

I may not have any family now but I am free from the hell of narc controlling parents. My narc siblings can look after them!!

Good luck x

QueenCarpet yes, when you're taken off guard it is awful, it's just that I have a good turning people to stone face. I do know exactly how it feels not to want to go out again after you've seen someone you don't want to see.
Please don't be sorry about the way the Police treated me as a child. It was the 80s and the world was a different place then.

Thank you Carrie you are right but the conditioning is hard to shake off. I do need to get the hell away. Thank you for telling me it is ok.
It's difficult to make people understand what it's like and why like a fool I keep going back for more. This has to stop now.

Missrepair - I totally get where you're coming from. I found it very very very hard to break away.

In fact I don't think I would have done it if it weren't for my DH, and if it weren't for my narc family pushing me just a step too far. We had the most horrendous row (them shouting at me in front of my children - making us all cry) and then that was the perfect excuse to stop all contact.

Otherwise it can be hard to walk away. And it was hard anyway. They kept pushing for a reason as to why I was 'punishing' them.

When it's always passive aggressive behaviour, it can be hard to call them out on it. It can always be explained away, or dismissed, or even gaslighted completely. But a full blown row that got really nasty (brought on by me not doing as they wanted) - well that was so welcome to me, and gave me the excuse I needed IYSWIM.

I felt very fragile at the time, but now 2 years on, although I have the dread of seeing them, looking at threads like these really help me to realise; a) I did the right thing b) my family were worse than I thought and I had every reason to go NC.

I still have issues, I still get nightmares. And you're not a fool going back for more. I feel like an idiot with it taking till my 30's to realise what was going on. I also went back to an abusive relationship over and over, and I like to think I'm quite an intelligent person!

But it's nothing to do with that. They are so clever and manipulative, you can forgive yourself.

I hope you can find it in you to stop contact and do what you need to do to set yourself free

MissRepair I really hope the police would be better at dealing with this now but who knows. I really hope so though. I was truly horrified to read that they treated you so badly. I mean whether they believed the story or not it sounds like you were physically injured. You'd think they would look at the evidence that's right in front of them.

When I was younger my school noticed something odd was going on so decided to involve social services. Except they had developed such a trust of my mum that the head of year pre-warned my mum that they were considering calling SS! what fools. Within in weeks my mum had made her excuses and moved me to a different school. New school obviously hadn't seen any of the things the old school has witnessed so didnt involve SS. That was the 90s. I hope these things have changed but I bet there are still many teachers who would fall for my mums act and would tell her about SS. It was done in a I'm-so-sorry-I-have-to-involve-SS-but-I-have-no-choice way. My mum was very convincing and had put a lot of effort into looking like the most admirable member of the community so how could they not believe her!

Carrie yes it feels like an ambush, that's exactly the right word for it. I came out of a shop once and caught a glimpse of my mother out of the corner of my eye and managed to quickly dodge into another shop before she spotted me. But today, with this other person, I had absolutely nowhere to go: ambushed! Thanks for the advice on practising what to say or do for if it happens again. I will do that.

Hey I've read the OP and a few posts and would like to join.

Growing up my mother had mental health problems (she still does) and basically if she did anything unreasonable my dad would take me aside and say "you know what shes like it's better to go along with it". But I knew that wasn't right.

I don't remember a lot that happened because if I didn't write it down immediately I would forget. I do remember that once I boiled a kettle after 9pm like I had done for weeks but mum charged at me saying that was breaking a rule now and slapped me with no warning.

Another time my dad came home from work to find me arguing with my mum and he pushed me over on the stairs and had his hands around my throat. Then asked mum what the argument was about. Then said I was in the wrong cause he told me not to ever argue with her.

Another time when I was 16 I was locked in the house by my own for my birthday all day with the TV and computer disconnected. Because I had asked mum to wish me a happy birthday because her doing so was the requirement for getting my presents. And because I had asked I was ungrateful and she wasn't going to let me have any presents.

Now I am an adult who is 32 weeks pregnant and thinking more now about my relationship with my mother and how it's influenced me. She is still very controlling and as she is now saying she can't leave the house due to her mental health problems I have to travel several hours to bring baby to her - she used those words too - I HAVE TO. And I don't want to. I find it very difficult to even have a conversation with her as she refuses to acknowledge the damage they've caused and she thinks she is excused by saying she had problems. Equally though I do want a relationship with her but my OH says perhaps I'm wanting what isn't possible and need to accept a purely civil relationship.

Pinkladyapple you should not do anything you don't want to do. You are pregnant, probably very tired and anxious about becoming a mother and finding your childhood situation very triggering at this time. She is already putting conditions on how she will see her grandchild, you must make all the effort, essentially. Oh great, so much for help eh? You don't owe her anything, and if you are worried about your obligations to her just remember you have none. Your obligation is towards your other half and your child, they are your next of kin now, not her.

If it helps the shit hit the fan with my mother 18 months ago when she said "When are you coming up for your Christmas presents?". This is the retired person with a car in the driveway. I am the underemployed skint person, working full time including weekends, non driver, exhausted with dermatitis on my face, unable to afford the £30 train ticket. I got the presents in the end, good job I didn't go up there because it was 4 baked bean cans wrapped in paper with raffia round them, and something else that she "couldn't sell at a craft fair". Something in me went "NOPE". Went NC and I am much happier. Please don't travel to her if you don't want to lovely. You don't have to do anything this person wants you to. She is just a person and there are 7 billion others, you have the power.

Thanks to everybody sharing their stories on here, I have lurked for quite a while. If I have self-sabotaging thoughts or question my sanity I always remember this thread and know if I were to voice my feelings I would have understanding. I'm not out of the woods yet because I have married into a family where MIL is a narcissist and the FIL an enabler. Luckily my husband and I are aware of the dynamic and we are making strategies to avoid much contact with them. I have also spoken to my SIL as I am aware that the MIL is trying to play us off against each other, she is being scapegoated and I am being painted as the new bright and shiny DIL, at least to the SIL. When I am alone with MIL she is a right old cow. Luckily due to my experience in having a batshit family, the world was put to rights over a bottle of prosecco with my new SIL. Lesson: don't be isolated. See the game and how to intercept the play. Make allies.

dogdays Thank you for summing it up so brilliantly but simply - I don't have to. My OH has said I need to either go NC or just be civil to her. He's also made matters a lot less complicated by saying he does not want to bring baby and he's quite happy for me to tell my mum that OH is also refusing to go. There are safety concerns as my parents are hoarders, besides my relationship with her.

What hurts me is when I tell people that my mum is mentally ill people sometimes act sympathetically towards her, even when I say that I suffered a lot of emotional abuse. When the fact is I was a child/teenager and she has repeatedly refused to get help. I visited a few months ago and commented on the state of the house (have you seen that hoarders program on channel 4? imagine something like that) to her, she went quiet. A few hours later my dad took me aside to say "whether it's true or not you can't comment as it will upset your mum" so he is still enabling her.

I'm going to look up some of the books/sites mentioned in the OP. I think I need to recognise I need to do some self-help or ask my GP about counselling.

dogdays I'm glad that going NC has worked out for you as well with your mother, and I'm sorry you've been unlucky with your MIL. It sounds like things are on the up though - that's good, and something to focus on. Having a supportive OH and an understanding SIL are important allies. You have given good advice there.

I understand completely what you're saying about other people not getting that parents can abuse. I feel I limit my communication about this to just a chosen few or on boards like this. It can set you back a long way if you meet people who say "Well she is your mother" and things like that. These people are enablers too. I think if you have the support of your other half to go NC then you should consider it. At least you are not fighting the tide there. Read as much as possible, it really will help. I don't pretend to know what you're feeling as I am not a mum and left it a bit late now, but I have seen the effect on my sisters of becoming mothers and I think that once the baby is here then you will protect it and decisions can become clearer. My sisters said they stood for abuse themselves but once a child was involved they became dragons. You need to feel safe as a priority, if you don't feel safe then your child is not safe. Protect yourself at all costs, be evasive with regards future plans, don't commit to anything. I'm sorry about the state of your mother's house; as above, so below it seems. It is a good enough reason never to go there if you don't want to. Just kick back and relax for these final weeks, just have some mental time off, you don't have to make a decision about her for a long time yet.

Thanks for your good wishes, I am all over my MIL though she doesn't know it. I can be sneaky in private and fake in public too. :)

Hugs to you!

sorry to jump in at the end here

I cant write down my story as its all too jumbled up in my head

I just wanted to ask, has anyone here gone NC and had absolutely no family left apart from dh/dp and/or dc's?

I'm at that stage. I had gone NC/very low contact, but the people I have gone NC with are my only surviving blood family members. I need to keep them at a distance, a long distance and I have, but its left me feeling very lonely and isolated. I have literally no other extended family. I have some good friends and I love dh and the dc's, but having no other family in my life for the first time in nearly 50 years has made me feel lost. I dont want to keep having a relationship with them as it all comes back to hurt me time and time again, but theres a part of me forever longing to have some sort of family back and its hard to equate the longing with the reality.

My head is a mess.

Please can anyone give me any advice, thanks.

Just to add, I feel bad for my kids. They have no one except us who sends them a card at Xmas/birthdays. Well not no one, just no family. I write them out cards from the ones I've gone NC with and put money in it for them just so they think they still have aunts/uncles who care about them (my parents are dead). As I know they'll get nothing if I leave it alone. (I never let a birthday pass for my nieces and nephews without sending a card and a gift voucher). I'm the baby of the family.