"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Roo isn't it amazing how we all blame the dysfunctional parent (and they often are for various reasons) but we let off the enabler? My dad's violence was/is his problem but it's actually my mum's reaction that hurts more.

Tired

Do not meet your mother and ignore the flying monkeys; these people are also not acting at all in your best interest here, only theirs. They are also being manipulated and they have also not wanted to at all hear your side of the story.

Her apology is really anything but; she still refuses to take any responsibility for her actions. Your mother has made a choice (she has put her man first) and she continues to enable her H likely also through being conditioned to do so.

If she was really that bothered with your DC and you she would not be saying that you need to get over it and that you are just like your dad. She has chosen to stay with her man for her own reasons and gets what she wants out of that dysfunctional relationship. I would leave her to it as well frankly because she is not going to change.

Re your comment:-
"Also, she keeps sending money for one of my DC (pays it directly into their account). I'm not sure what I should do about this. It isn't mine but it feels like them trying to control my DC too".

I would request the bank to return the money to her account because its just another way of further obligating your children. An alternative measure is to close that account and set up another whereby she does not know the account number.

No contact is precisely that. Anything that she sends you is always returned without acknowledgement or given to the charity shop.

I would like to further clarify my statement:-

"Anything that she sends you is always returned without acknowledgement or given to the charity shop".

The first part of that sentence only applies to the money that is in your child's account. Any physical presents should be taken to the charity shop, these should never be directly acknowledged. Any cards sent should be shredded.

pebbles it really is. I've spent most of my life blaming my F and only recently questioned why my M, who everyone always says is sooooo lovely (in my opinion she's a martyr & plays the victim) if she's that lovely, why has she stayed with him for 35 years and why didn't she protect me from what was going on. I think I spent a longtime justifying that she has been conditioned due to being in an abusive relationship but that's an excuse, I was a child and should have been looked after at all costs.
I'm sorry about your grandma and hope you feel better this morning. I'm trying to find a therapist with experience specifically in domestic abuse, could you do the same? If you've not already. Also, lean on your hubby, you're lucky to have someone there all the time to support you and I'm sure he wants to help you. It's okay to talk about your experiences and lean on the people who care about you, for me it's my friends.

Hello everyone, I am very interested in any observations you may have...

I have had no contact with my family for 20yrs and for the last 15 yrs my husbands family has been my "surrogate" family if you like, we have spent every xmas with them, holidayed on 4-5 occasions and had a lot of visits and calls even though we have always lived a long way away.

So I came into someone else's family and I couldn't play by their rules and it is only after a massive row with my husband at the weekend that I realise they did not want to change, they never did and I was the "problem" in trying to make them change.

So staying at their house in winter - very col, no heating on. Three adults (me, husband MIL all cold) but FIL was always too warm, so no heating, except when he had a cold/flu coming on (you knew he was ill when he put the heating on). One time we had quite a stink as we had a four month old baby and the bedroom was about 10 degrees. One time on Xmas day FIL takes his mother home and MIL puts the heating on - but the boiler doesn't work and red light comes on - FIL is furious when he gets home.

I saw him as a domineering bully - as my father had been (though he was many many times worse). But I was coming into their dynamic and they could not/would not change it. The last Xmas of FIL (he has been dead 2 yrs) my husband was fed up because house cold and then towards the end of our visit, FIL has a cold so heating suddenly goes on. MIL will say now "he never liked to feel too warm"

So now we come to the present - BIL (so daughter's husband ) domineering bully, would not let her come with her daughter and parents to come to visit us. (Though that is not true - she chose to listen to him). After a horrendous family holiday last yr (never again) she drove her mother home and 1:30 am she "has to go home as he is going running at 6am and she needs to be home for daughter" .

MIL blames him - but her daughter chooses to go home.

So BIL for two week holiday and always:

Does not say hello to cousins (4 other grandchildren)

Does not ask them how they are, how is school, completely ignores them;

Does not ask anybody anything about their lives;

talks about himself, his running, his special diet, made up silly stories like how he could get 1.50 euros to the pound in the local currency exchange, stupid silly things that no one would believe.

What does everyone do? Humour him - ask him about himself, show an interest even though he shows utter contempt for everyone else.

The row on the weekend followed my husband saying after we had talked about our children " the basis of a good relationship is being able to talk openly to one another about things" as we had already discussed that morning that his mother always sees the worst in one daughter and the best in the other (the one with the awful husband ) and that she never was able to talk to the worse one - I said " you haven't been able to do that as a family" i.e. You have not been able to talk openly. He went ballistic.

For him to admit problems is his family is too much for him. he has always wanted me to see his family as he does, to have the same attitudes and react the same way . I lost count of the number of times I was told of his father "he is old, he will not change, you need to be the bigger person"

We cannot talk any further about his family, I will bring nothing up, I will stay out of as much as I can.

I came to his family with my own terrible background and firstly thought how normal they were but I see a lot of dysfunction. i now finally realise it is not for me to change the way they see things.

Thank you for reading

YouKeep, firstly, you need to protect your own and your family's MH, even if that means you go NC. You have your own family, so your duty is to them. Your mum/sister/IL's etc, have become your extended family and are now secondary to your DH and DC.

Apologies for the quick post, I'm heading out and have had a fair bit of housework to do before I go out. Will be back later (around 3.30pm-ish) to post another response.

Take care of yourself and your wee family.

Youkeep

What upsidedowndog wrote.

Your DHs inertia when it comes to his own dysfunctional family of origin is simply hurting him as well as your own self.

For anyone going through counselling at the moment to try and make sense of their families behaviour i send you my hugs and total respect.

Today i revealed that my only support growing up was my "boyfriend" someone who "looked after me" and "protected me" from the chaos of my family. He was 18 , I was 13, he wrote to me after seiing me around ,finding my address and we bonded over a shared love of art. we were together for 4 years and he practically lived at my family house , invited in by my parents . we never had penatrative sex ( sorry if tmi) but lots of fooling around and oral along with other stuff i dont wish to disclose, i was never into him that way but went along with it , i dont count him as my first love.
I ended it when I was 17 because he wanted us to marry , i didnt , my parents said nobody would love me as he loved me ! I wanted to leave home and re-invent myself free of my past.

My counsellour today has pointed out that my parents had allowed a paedophile into the home and not protected me. i was under the age of consent and he should have been reported by my parents for wanting a relationship with a minor. Has asked me for his details so he can be checked out.

I understand what she is saying and i do agree , but i cant help feeling responsible. i used him for support , he used me . This is not getting easier at all.

Is anyone able to recommend resources for counselling? I've made a call to napac today and they gave me a couple of numbers but the only one I was able to get through to were MIND and there's a 17 week waiting list for counselling

Roo

I would have a look at BACPs website.

www.bacp.co.uk/

Hope that helps.

Port

You were not responsible for what happened to you; the fault here lies solely with the perpetrator i.e. this at the time 18 year old. You were but a child. He took your trusting nature and need for support and totally abused it; he had power and control over you and used you for his own purposes.

Thank you

pebbles so sorry to hear your story. It's great that you had the love of your grandmother

Can you follow your sister's example and reduce contact or even go NC with your parents? Would your DH support you in that? Then you might be able to start to heal.

Lots of people use alcohol to numb themselves and avoid facing their feelings. If you feel you're harming yourself and your loved ones by drinking, have a look at the DRY thread in Relationships. It helps many of us to stay sober. Yes the feelings don't go away and you have to deal with them in the end, but they are definitely more manageable once you get out of the bad drinking places.

I'm in a really bad, dark, place at the moment, mentally shattered with my toxic mother twisting her callous knife deeper every opportunity she takes. I've had panic attacks with my limbs moving involuntarily and have fallen numerous times this past week. Have been taking higher than prescribed doses of opiates to try to push through the pain but nothing is helping, it's all so intermingled - my entire life has been fuck up after fuck up and it's too hard.

On the positive side I finally have a date for counselling - couple of weeks or so.

Best wishes and hugs to all

Port I'm really sorry that happened to you. Your parents should have protected you and didn't.
I hope that your counselling can help you to find some inner peace with it and help you to realise that you were in no way at fault.

Steve I too suffer from anxiety and panic attacks and found that CBT really helped me. It's not something that ever goes away but I can now manage it. It does get worse at times but I just have to remind myself of what I learnt through the CBT and can get through it.

Do you mind me asking if the counselling has been arranged through your GP or are you having to pay for it?

I too find myself in one of the darkest places I've been in for a long time. I realise I just can't be on my own. Obviously I do have to be on my own most of the time but when I am all I want to do is cry.

This week I've been feeling incredibly guilty about everything. Like you Steve my life has been fuck up after fuck up and I feel incredibly guilty for my children as I could have done so much better.
DH and I are facing financial ruin, we are hanging on by a hairs breadth at the moment, it's just an unforseeable future. It takes very little to make me feel like I'm going over the edge. Yesterday it was because we had a letter from our county council stating we have to pay for Dd1s school transport as of September when she starts year 12.

Everything is building and building and it's all going to come to a head at the weekend. A double whammy.

On Saturday we are all going to a family wedding. My mother will be there. I've been NC with her for almost 6 years. I know she's going to try and pick off DC's 1 and 2. Luckily DC3 doesn't remember her and DC 4 is only 18 months. I don't know how I'm going to handle it.

Saturday is also DC3s birthday. The IL's have sent DH a text asking if they can give her their present. DH has ignored. Do you think they honestly expected DH to reply with a 'yes of course, come over to our house' or a 'yes we'll drop her off to you'?
I'm on tender hooks waiting for them to turn up on our doorstep again, last time they didn't just dump the presents they had the audacity to knock on the door. I'm dreading if I'm here on my own. I hope they come whilst DH is here so he can open the door and tell them where to go, it will be better coming from him.

Bearing in mind that we live 2 miles down the road from them (on the same road) and they still wait for DC 3's school bus to go passed their house everyday so they can stand in
their garden and wave to her, there has now appeared on the roadside next to their drive a human sized Pingu the penguin (they've obviously made it out of wood and painted it) with a sign on it saying in huge writing 'Happy Birthday DC 3'.
These people are stark raving mad aren't they? Which really doesn't fill me with confidence as I just don't trust what they will do or how far they will go. It's like they are trying to groom DC3 but what for?

Hi, first post here, I hope no-one minds me launching in with a long post. There's a particular aspect of my childhood that's playing on my mind a lot, and I'm hoping for some views on it, if that's ok. Love to all on this thread, it's so hard dealing with this stuff, isn't it?

Is there a name for this? A and B are part of the same household. A is the father and B is the teenage daughter. Whenever B has any problem or issue in her life, or is moody or upset, A starts to get angry and upset towards B, storming around, yelling, saying spiteful things to her, sulking, giving the silent treatment and starting arguments, criticising her at every opportunity. A claims that this is because he loves B and therefore gets so worried when B has problems. He tells her that hers are not the only feelings that matter, that of course he is upset too because he loves her, and that she is responsible for making him upset, and selfish to object to his behaviour. He subjects her to lectures and tirades about her character flaws and about how much he suffers through the worry she causes, and tells her she should be grateful that he cares so much.

He claims that he is suffering huge worry and distress over her problems and doing everything he can to support her, and uses this to elicit sympathy outside the home, not mentioning how he is treating her, only how exhausted he is from all the worry and distress. People assume that he needs to offload to them because of all the support he is giving her.

She suffers from untreated depression for many years, and because her parents 'love her so much', they can’t bring themselves to admit that anything could possibly be wrong, let alone get her any professional help other than one trip to the GP when she is nearly 18. Every time her depression gets bad or she has anything difficult to deal with, she has to deal with her own feelings, her parents' rages and tirades, the guilt of thinking she is making her parents suffer, and their accusations of not caring about their suffering. Her original problem pales into insignificance in comparison with their emotions, while they accuse her of blowing her own problems out of all proportion and making everything about her, and give her no choice but to believe she is the source of all the stress in the household. He is moody, volatile and demanding towards all members of the household and claims this is because he is so worried about B.

It’s the claiming that the abuse and neglect was because he was so tortured by worrying about my problems because he loved me so much that I can’t get my head around. Is there a name for this?

Part of me still worries that this might be true, that the reason their behaviour makes no sense to me is that I am morally defective, toxic and pathologically selfish. Can anyone can cast any light on why people behave like this?

Thanks for reading this.

Not sure what the technical term would be amikatari, hope someone else can help there, but "total shit" comes to mind. Have you ever talked to a professional counsellor about it all?

Hi Merd, I'm in counselling at the min. I think I do need to discuss this aspect of it all with her some more. Thanks though, that made me smile :)

amikatari It sounds to me like your father is a classic narcissist. Making an issue out of your teenage feelings (which were perfectly normal) into his own 'problems' and creating a drama in order get attention and have the focus solely on him.

I hope your counselling brings you some peace of mind.

Hi mampam

Do you really have to attend this wedding as a family; sounds like a DFS (disaster from the start) for you all frankly. No contact is precisely that and your mother is going to be there. That is very good reason not to attend anyway.

Your DHs parents are just as dysfunctional, perhaps even more so than your own parents are.

May I ask why your DH is still receiving text messages from his barking mad parents?. Did he not block their number from his phone?.

Unfortunately you did not move far enough away from his parents, you're still in their orbit and two miles is not much distance wise.

My guess as well is that his parents have chosen your DC3 to be their golden child; this is why she is getting so favoured with the Pingu statue and their sign. May I ask roughly how old DC3 is; is she teenage or younger?. I would also think his parents are setting you up via her to be doing something really nasty (on the lines of trying to steal her heart and mind away from you as her own parents).

I would not stay at home on Saturday waiting for them to show up; I would be elsewhere and certainly not at this wedding either. As it is her birthday is there something nice you could do as a family instead; a picnic at a local country park for instance, a meal at one of her favourite restaurants?. Anything but waiting for them or attending that wedding.

amikatari

Your father reads like a classic example of a narcissist and you have grown up within a narcissistic family structure.

Its a hideous situation for you and I hope your counsellor is helping you through the fear, obligation and guilt.

What level of contact do you have if any with these people these days?. No contact is definitely an option for you going forward.

Portinastorm - It's interesting that you don't count him as your first love. I feel that means the relationship was abusive. As well as illegal.

Hi nampam,

Yes, was referred for initial CBT by GP last year, saw a counsellor once and didn't feel comfortable opening up - which is the whole point, right? So been waiting for an alternative for quite a while.

As the days meander by and time ticks by so rapidly, I look back at how little I've accomplished compared to what I should have achieved.

My M.E. renders me bedbound, and using a wheelchair. Every day is fighting searing pain and numbing fatigue that sticks like tar. My mother told me yesterday that I "need do more, need to push myself, I'm so lazy".

She's had mental health issues since as far back as I can remember, her slicing a curtain to ribbons with a chefs knife when I was very young is one of my earliest formative memories. My DB is seven years older and has admitted he's been affected by our lives as kids, I grew up into depression hitting in my 20s, many factors, and have seen my mothers MH wax and wane, more waxing these past ten years, and my DF enabling her.

I just hope my biggest fear isn't realised. I've been under the pump with solid persistent high levels of stress for 25 years, and something has to give. My biggest fear is becoming my mother with her MH issues. I guess the alternatives are counselling working or eventually everything putting me in a box.

Sorry I'm so dark and bleak, it's just so hard right now and no outlets outside of my DW.

amikatari - I'm not a psychologist or anything but it sounds like the father is a narcissist. I've put some names of dynamics/narcissistic traits in brackets for you (). Blaming the daughter for his own inability to manage his feelings (scapegoating) whilst not offering any support (lack of empathy, your feelings are not important/dont exist, its all about him - he needs to be centre of attention). He may be assigning his own flaws onto you by saying you are selfish and going on about your flaws - are the flaws he talks about his own flaws too? (projecting). He needs sympathy & attention from everyone and uses the worry you cause him to get that (victim mentality). I'd look up covert and overt narcissists and see if either of those descriptions fit. Also look up scapegoating in the family. I don't think you were the cause of these emotional outbursts, I think he would have behaved like this anyway but it was convenient to blame you as it makes him look like the victim otherwise it would be obvious he was the cause of the problem. this is called scapegoating

Hi Attila
No we did not move far enough away but we had to do what we could at the time which was get away from them quickly and find something affordable which difficult in the area we live in. So here we are and we just have to make the best of what we have got.

DH and I both thank our lucky stars each and everyday that we no longer live next door to his parents, for all our problems, they would be 100 times worse if we still did.

DH has changed his phone a couple of months ago and I don't think it occurred to him that he would need to block them again.

DC3 will be 6 on Saturday and yes she was very much the golden child. DC's 1&2 are from my previous marriage and although DH treats them and loves them as if they are his own children the ILs would never accept them as grandchildren. Since we have moved they refuse to even acknowledge DC 1. MIL has always had a problem with DC1 and I suspect it's because she is a girl. I always got the impression that she was jealous of me because I had a daughter. DC3 is a girl and MIL once let slip in front of both myself and DH that "she's like the daughter I never had". DH and I just looked at each other and it has always made me feel very uncomfortable.
DC 4 is a boy and all they ever did was insult him (pretty sick considering we left there before he was even a year old). He was too pale, he needed to get a suntan, he was too heavy to hold, his nappy stunk, his ears were too big and needed pinning back etc

ILs had already stolen DC's heart and mind whilst we lived next door to them. It felt like we were raising their child. We were putting in all of the hard work whilst they reaped the pleasure.
They would let her do what ever she wanted, eat lunch or ice cream at their house at 10am in the morning, fill her with biscuits when she got home from school, every time she stepped outside the front door they would be there encouraging her to go with them so I'd spend half the time calling or looking for her rather than them just getting DD to let me know she was going out of our garden and would be with them.
It all got so bad and they undermined us as parents so much that DD would question DH and I because Granny and Grandad had said something different.

Yet the ILs would have no qualms about frightening DD with their stupid stories. They would find it funny that one of their stories had frightened her so much that she had been up crying all night. I do however think it was funny to them because DH and I had been up all night with her.

Within a couple of weeks of moving both DH and I noticed how we had begun to get our DD back. It's fantastic she's such a great kid.

How can 2 people have such a catastrophic effect on our relationship with our own daughter??

As for my mother, we are going to the wedding as we've all been looking forward to it for a long time and she's not going to ruin it for us. I have not been to any family events for the whole time I have been NC with her but why should I be ousted as the black sheep I have done nothing wrong.

I spoke to my SF last night and told him I won't stand for her pestering my DC and I will not put up with her shenanigans.

I know my mother and I know she won't like to cause a scene and show her true colours in front of others. I'm quite prepared to tell her to F**K OFF if necessary.