"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I do agree that it can be exhausting. I have a far more realistic relationship with my own parents and stopped seeking their approval years ago.

My DH still has the obligation part (I think he sees it as being loyal because his late narcissistic father was a frankly rubbish example) of FOG in spades; its MILs b'day today so he's gone there after work. Its very hard not to feel some degree of resentment (he can revert into child like mode in her presence and actively seeks her approval) because he thinks that her behaviour is pretty much normal.

I am going to speak to him about their weekly phone conversation (he always phones her, she rarely if ever phones here); she asks constantly how he is doing at work and asks after Meerkat Junior occasionally (he does not have much to do with her). She rarely if ever mentions me at all. Its very rude of DH and she both I think.

Thoughts are as always appreciated.

In black and white terms, someone who never talks to you, asks after you, or even brings you up in conversation with someone to whom you are profoundly significant isn't rude by oversight.
Your MIL would seem to be someone who is trying to deliberately omit you from their reality, and because it's such oddly passive aggression it creeps up on you and forces you to activly confront something almost mistlike in its insubstantialness. I think you need to consider what a "win" for you would be in this situation before or even if you challenge either of their behaviours.

I have another question, does anyone else's narc take it personally if you have a differing opinion? This weekend, my brother mentioned to my Mum that I was a republican and she started saying that I was wrong and that the Royals do a great job. I also, stupidly, brought up a conspiracy theory that I believe to be true and both my narcs lynched me for it. It has made me realise that I need to go nc but the only way I can escape them is to emigrate. If I move, I just know that my brother will find an excuse to turn up.

snowwhite my Dad is not a narc but he is always damned right. He has lots of extreme views which are quite different to mine and he can't handle the fact that we think differently. I'm always wrong (and usually I'm going to hell as a result of my views) - we can't agree to disagree.

Attila you are always so wise and supportive that I don't know how to say anything that you wouldn't already know. But I agree it sounds very unsupportive of your DH.

snowwhite my mother is like that. There are certain things that you can't contradict, mostly to do with people and organisations' place in her hierarchy of good guys and bad guys. And it's black and white - if someone is a bad guy, they can't be funny or produce good work; if they're good, all that they do is good. When we used to see her I'd try to avoid talking about these things (DP not - he used to challenge her, before he realised how futile it was) but sometimes if she was in a bad mood and spoiling for a fight she would bring something up. Tiring, and so bloody pointless.

so here i am again..... ive posted before about my mum who has always been very unpleasant to me and now my sister who i believe is very jeolous of my " good life".( its not that great , normal problems and bumps , but happy).

i went none contact after a few unpleasant occasions and i couldnt face a family day with them both so i sent an email saying how they made me feel and if we could meet , they totally over reacted and dismissed my feelings until i asked them to leave me alone.. i have periods of calm but then something will be said about me and when i dont respond an email will come asking for contact with my eldest child ( youngest is two so young) but not me....

I cant help myself and i try to explain from my point why that will not be ok and how this has happened , then i start to feel very depressed and upset , stop sleeping and cant find enthusiasm for anything , i wish they would either understand or leave me alone...
best wishes to anyone who knows what this is like

I always look at these threads and think I should post here, but I never quite feel upto it. So I'm just posting to say hi to all of you. I might feel too overwhelmed to actually go into anything personal right now, but hi.

portinastorn

They sound vile. Why did you decide to get back in contact with them? You know,, don't you, that they will never even try to understand how you feel about their behaviour? You need to protect yourself from people who make you feel this bad.

One technique I've found in my very limited dealings with my mother is imagining a big, solid wall between me and her. She can't get anywhere near me through it. That way I can put myself first, and she can't touch me.

Don't let them hurt you, you deserve a lot better. No contact again?

665 and cinnamon - thank you both particularly you 665. Hadn't thought of it quite like that before and I've given your words some thought since your posting. Its helped me a lot, thank you .

Port - I would think you are still very much in a FOG state with regards to your parents hence making contact with them (and perhaps out of some forlorn hope or fantasy that they had somehow changed for the better).
I also think that no contact would be far better for your own family unit going forward. You certainly cannot facilitate them contacting your eldest at the expense of your youngest child, they can frankly bugger off with their favouritism. They will undoubtedly also use your children to get back at you.

I would also suggest you block all their ways of communicating with you as they are using those as a stick to bash you with.

sorry i didnt explain well , im no contact but then i get an email which i find really hard to ignore ....... because its so wrong .......... so i send one back asking them to respect my decision and explaining why i have gone no contact. im starting with a counsellor on monday , i just hope she doesnt want to try and fix things, i just want strategies to manage
love to everyone on this thread , losing family because they are rubbish is crap

I'm reading all these posts and feeling very sad about the frankly shitty parents some people have. I'm amazed at the pervading guilt from some posts: these narc parents have done an amazing job on their kids.

I'm not sure I'm on the right thread, so MNHQ, feel free to delete if inappropriate.

DM is a functioning alcoholic, DF can take it or leave it, but was absent lots due to extremely social job during my childhood, often rolling in pissed, so DM decided she could also be pissed every night. It's no fun trying to have friends round with that going on. It still goes on, 30 years later. I hate having her to stay. If I ask her not to drink, we have major strops.

As a child, I felt very ignored. She never had time to get an issue fixed for me (she was a teacher, 3 months off a year, it cost me £2000 recently, would have been free for a child). I was left home with db a lot, invariably he'd go out. I had an accident one time I was left alone while the DM and DF went to the pub: ended up with a broken limb. Fortunately, a family member phoned and found out I was alone and came to take me to A&E.

I am a sore disappointment to DM, for many reasons-my weight, living hours away, not going up enough, not being able to have DC, but mostly because I won't jump every time she wants me to. We were nc for a while, she basically ignored me because she was angry at my not going 'home' enough and my reason ie her drinking.

Both me and DB moved to the furthest possible point immediately we were 18. We are very lc, he used to be a serious wanker to me growing up, violent, of course DM disagrees, he's her golden child. Everything was my fault. She's seeing a repeat of his behaviour with his DC, tho.

There's an awful lot of emotional blackmail goes on and money used to be thrown at us, purely a way to keep us attached to the apron strings. I put a stop to this, so we would have her ignoring us and throwing major strops. DF is a massive enabler. He has never once told me he loves me.

Reading this back, I think that, compared to some, I am actually quite well off and I don't think I was an easy child by any means. I remember writing in my diary about wanting to commit suicide and eating a load of berries I hoped were poisonous. DM found this and I just got a bollocking for upsetting her.

Currently, we're managing a decent relationship, but she's trying to remote control our holidays. The DH has just said no to everything. I wish I was that strong.

Crap, sorry about the epic post, lots of resentment bubbling up here. :(

I just wanted to say that its almost a year i since i went NC and in that time there have been many occasions when i have wanted to contact my father hoping that he may have changed. I manage to stop myself by reading this thread and it reminds me each and every time that i need to protect me and my family. Thank you ladies (especially Attila) for leeping me strong.

Port,

re your comment:-
"im no contact but then i get an email which i find really hard to ignore ....... because its so wrong .......... so i send one back asking them to respect my decision and explaining why i have gone no contact. im starting with a counsellor on monday , i just hope she doesnt want to try and fix things, i just want strategies to manage "

Unfortunately your mistake here was to actually reply to that e-mail; your parents never wrote to you out of any real concern for you. You need to completely and utterly disengage from them. They were hoovering you and you replied which is what they wanted from you. Any response from you to them gives them an "in" to bother you even more, I would fully expect a diatribe of an e-mail in response. Do not read any reply but put it instead in your spam folder or even better delete it without reading, it does not need such power.

If this counsellor shows any bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment find another person to work with. After all counsellors are like shoes and you need to find someone that fits with you.

You cannot readily manage such disordered people and no strategy will contain them. Boundaries set by you to them will be ignored. These people are not reasonable and do not play by the normal rules governing familial relations so the rule book is thrown out. Self preservation and no contact or communicating with them further on your part is the only way to go.

I'm sorry for butting right into this thread but I feel so desperate and need advice about how to move forward and cope with my situation. Before I begin, please can I say thank you to everyone who has been so honest, open and kind on this thread. Reading about your experiences and the wisdom you have has honestly gotten me through the past two weeks.

Wee bit of background... DM a very complex, moody person who has suffered from depression and chronic illness for many years - since I can remember. Also a heavy drinker who turns extremely nasty and scary when drunk. Growing up, her drinking terrified my siblings and I. The next day hangovers make her depressed and despondent. DM can never be happy for anything in life, not any of our achievements, marriages, DGC's, etc gave her any joy. She is very proud of herself if she achieves anything though. Any happy event (such as those listed above) she ruins by being jealous, critical, nasty or simply showing no interest at all. Usually a drunken outburst, nasty text/email will come before or after these events. Every event has to be carefully executed as to try not and upset her. She is lazy and blames everyone else for all of her problems - she will not seek help no matter how much I have begged her. I truly want her to be happy.

She is extremely jealous of my in laws (normal, excited and involved GP's). When DS1 was born, there was an emergency situation. My in laws (without us asking) arrived at the hospital to be there for my DH, who was stranded as his car was left at MIdwife Unit whilst he got in ambulance to hospital with me. DS eventually arrives safe and sound and DH phones my DM with good news. She is drunk and he can't get her off the phone. Next day DM arrives at hospital by taxi ( costing £70 although in laws offered to pick her up but she refused). She was hungover. No help to me and baby after section, I didn't expect her to be much help but thought she might be happy to be a GM. Even blamed me for trying to have a natural birth, I should have gone straight for epidural and wouldn't have needed a section?! Months following birth, she visits maybe once or twice (lives and hour away) but mainly me driving down to keep her involved. Still quite sore from section but wanted her to bond. Then comes her usual nasty text saying the in laws have taken over. All hell breaks loose. She never says anything upfront and is very throwaway and cowardly. Thing is, she never got off the starting block re being a GP and deep down don't think she really wanted to. She makes no effort with anything/anyone but wants the same rewards as someone who does.

DS1 now nearly 3 and I'm 33 weeks pregnant with DC2. My whole experience of being a mother so far has been marred by my own mother's manipulation and my worry and anxiety that another outburst is happening. It's just soooo hard to explain. My whole life it's like I've felt guilty about having fun or good things happening to me.

Have been so anxious,since I found out I was pregnant, about this next birth and juggling the aftermath and my DM's moods and needs. Fortnight ago, I drove down to speak to her face to face as desperately don't want a reoccurrence of last time. I said that whilst I was in hospital maybe it would be best that in laws come to look after DS1. Reason being I could be in hospital a few days with section, my DF will be working, my DM will just sit there and not do anything with DS (didn't say this to her) and expect my DH to wait upon her. Also other private reasons like I'd be happier for DS to be looked after by in laws as they have and want a relationship with him and they will be a good help to DH. I stated if she wasn't happy with this to please say. I also said she would have priority in visiting, the in laws would be away by the time I got home with baby (why should I have had to say that?!) so wouldn't be getting all the first days with DC etc. I basically said to her, face to face that I wanted her to be happy and enjoy the time. My heart was on my sleeve.

6 days later, I get a horrible email saying how heartbroken she is that I have chosen the in laws over her for the birth. She brought up loads of stuff from months ago, blaming me for all these things I have done wrong. One of many being, I wasn't grateful enough for DS Christmas presents. I was very grateful, I always am with her as know what she's like. She got steaming drunk at Christms and ruined the atmosphere but nobody pulls her up on that. She said I loved the attention I get from DH's big family (my mum has alienated all her family and has no friends) and also changed with the attention I got at DS birth. I was in a tramadol haze and can't even remember first few months. She ends email by saying she won't take any criticism, our relationship is over and 'Good luck with the birth' . Also says I'll always love you and my DS. I'm such a mess as thought everything was talked through. Although I did have a niggle another storm was brewing.

I usually reply to these emails with a counter attack but just had no emotional strength to do so and I have also learned I can never win with her. I have tried and tried with her but nothing I do is enough. I just want a quiet life and to not have this heavy, anxious heart anymore. I want to have my baby with no drama surrounding the event. I want to enjoy my family.

To make things even more confusing, she texted me a few days later as if nothing had happened! I was angry at this point and reminded her that she had ended our relationship via email. I asked her not to text or email me. I got a big MMS back but luckily my phone couldn't download it. I then blocked her number. My DH and DSis begged me to tell my DF about latest outburst. I did and this upset me even more as she had already gotten to him and he was completely with her. In the past he has at least acknowledged her behaviour.

Did I do anything wrong? I feel like she has just flung me away like she has done with nearly all her relationships, jobs, responsibilities. I feel so hurt, shaky and confused but also so free as I don't need to be scared when my phone bleeps.

So sorry for mammoth post. I don't know where to go from here. My precious baby will be here in a few weeks and I have all this hanging over me. DH has been great, as has this thread. If anyone has any advice please say, even if you think I wouldn't want to hear it .

Many, many thanks

saw counsellor today , she was great , got it straight away , recognized the complexity and is going to work on improving my resilience .
totally got how my childhood was abusive and how i had tried to fix it in adulthood , but that sometimes things are so broken they cant be fixed and trying to do that is to cause more injury ...... i feel like i am on the way ...... getting angry ....... not feeling so sad.
have a good evening lovely people x

Just wanted to send to everyone and thank you to everyone who made me realise I'm not alone. I've been thinking back to my teenage years and how my mother became jealous of me, for example, if I wore something low cut, I would be made to cover up immediately as 'I can see everything Snow's got' and it wasn't true, all you could see was a little cleavage.

So, my last session with counsellor was on Tuesday, just gone. Stuff with my Dad had been going through my head all over the weekend and I really wanted to talk about that to try and lighten the emotions of that load. It was tough talking about it, after if done my counsellor asked how I felt from talking about it, and what I wanted to get out of raising it. I said that everything else I'd talked about had been easier afterwards, lighter and I thought that would be the same. We talked a little bit about emotions but he didn't take me back into the feelings of when it happened, like with previous things.

Then he talked about how I could report it to the police, now or six months down the line if I wanted to. Then he talked about DD and if I thought she was at risk, was she ever alone with dad, were either of them ever alone with dad. He asked how I felt about what he was saying, which was really scary. He said about the duty of care, and his responsibility, which I know he went through in the first session, I just never expected it to apply to me, and my family. He said not to hit the panic button, that he didn't think there was a risk.

I felt OK on Tuesday, I told DH what counsellor had said, I went dancing, I felt OK. Then Tuesday night I couldn't sleep and Wednesday I was really on the edge of tears at work, but then we got busy so that helped. I went in to help in nursery in the afternoon and just burst into tears upstairs, I just couldn't stop crying. I had to say I couldn't help. Got mopped up a bit by people at work. Then Thursday I had a really strong anxiety response, kept having to go to the toilet, felt sick, had to lie down in the afternoon. I still feel really on edge and close to tears.

I just feel like the rug has been pulled out from underneath me. I was always convinced I'd had a bit of a crappy time, but it was small things, they'd just added up and I'd been over sensitive and I was frustrated that I'd over reacted and was still affected. But I was never abused, I was never touched, I was never raped. But then my counsellor said about a report to the police, so the subtext is, that I was abused. I'm just really struggling to get my head round that. To have that spelled out to me. I've kind of had two conflicting thoughts in my head, in that if DH tried anything like that with DD, he'd be out of the door so fast. But with me, it was 'just' a kiss, 'just' a few comments, 'just' the way he looked at me sometimes. And he was drunk, and wouldn't even remember.

I can refer back for another 6 counselling sessions, but there has to be a 3 month wait before I do. I'm just in shock, but the thought of working with another counsellor and building trust again just makes me feel so emotionally tired. A big part of me wishes I was just still in denial as I felt so much better before the last session. My parents are still alive, I can't not see them. There is no fear, but definitely obligation and guilt, Mum was very good at guilt trips. I feel like a child again, like it's just happened. I'm so confused, and tired and sad and I just don't know what to do with myself. I want to cry but I'm scared of not stopping.

dear flowers , i could have written your post , except my so called mother (scm) doesnt drink but will wade in with her nastiness and jealousy when ever she could , she ruined my first experience of being a mother and has tried to ruin my second child arriving, except this time i was ready for it and i have cut contact.

i had emergency c with my first and didnt heal for 3 months , she refused to help ( against medical advice ) and recounted tales of other peoples recovery -" oooh she was flying a plane across the pacific 3 days after her c - section ," things like that .

its not been easy , i have tried for years to fix it , however i am now coming to realise with counselling it cant be fixed and wont be fixed - that brings its own grief. what i do realise is that although she had contact with my dd for 8 years , she was not a great grandparent and is not greatly missed.

i was very concerned that my scm would turn my daughter , as it is i have a beautiful relationship with both my children and i wouldn't want any negative person affecting my family.

i went through years trying to explain , pleading and begging but we never spoke the same language, please dont make that mistake .

A person who is allowed to behave badly will always behave that way unless they decide to be different. I would think in 5 years time how will she behave in front of your children towards you .... it doesnt stop in my experience.

my advice would be , now you are a family make very strict guidelines for what you accept in front of your children , they are very perceptive and dont miss much . also look at the good people in your life , your in-laws sound great and very deserving of the title grandparents , concentrate on them , babies grow up very quick , dont miss it because someone else is stealing your time x

good luck and much happiness with your new baby

btw , i wasnt allowed good things to happen to me either , if it did i wasnt allowed to celebrate , it took me a long time to realise i was worth anything to anyone .

I'm going to tentatively post here. I once posted under a different screen name, but then wasn't in a head space to continue with the thread. I hope I am now.

I have a lot of trauma, and issues, that I have been working through for a while, and it's only on the last few years - last year especially - my trauma has been at the forefront of my mind, and I seem to be slowly facing up to the fact that everything stems back to my parents, and their treatment of me. I'm waiting for specific trauma therapy, but have done a selection of others, along with doing a lot of work by myself at home with books and research.

I'm still in a very messy place, working out where I go from here. I feel like accepting how much of it was toxic and dysfunctional means I need to work out immediately where my boundaries move to, to protect myself and DS. I've already been distancing myself because of other situations but get a lot of emotional blackmail from my mother for doing so.

From the outside my family, and my childhood, looks peaceful and ideal. But the realities are so different. There was years of 'small stuff' which added up, but the key moments I flashback to (emotional flashbacks; diagnosis of CPTSD) are cowering waiting to be hit (always downplayed as me being dramatic, I was only 'smacked' when I'd been naughty enough), being thrown against a wall once, and my father leaving when I was ten, telling me he was leaving because of me.

I have had the typical (as mentioned in the first post) "I apologised, what else is there to say" response when I've tried to discuss it, along with "I came back, what's the issue". But it is a huge family secret, I'm forbidden to mention it, I doubt many people know it even happened. Which of course adds to the cycle of shame and blame that continues to destroy me, nearly two decades on from the incident. The real icing on the cake is that when he left, he disappeared off around the work for six months, and we met him in a city for a few nights, when he ended up coming home with us. So whenever I've tried to discuss it, along with the above, I've been reminded I got a lovely holiday out of it, and so it should no longer be an issue.

I don't know quite why I'm posting. Maybe because I'm finally so sick and tired of the trauma that I'm getting ready to face up to even the really difficult bits. Maybe because I almost want confirmation that what they did wasn't okay, that it wasn't normal. Maybe because I'm finally understanding why I've 'let' people treat me like crap all my life. Maybe because although I know they will never take responsibility for what they did, I'm tired of banging my head against the brick wall of trauma. Maybe because I'm bloody terrified of damaging my son, even though I have done everything possible to parent in the opposite way - and yet he's being referred to CAMHS because he's struggling so much already. I don't know.

Thank you if you've got this far. And thank you to all of you for sharing your stories - I'm inspired. x

MrsBFlowers, now is probably not the time, but do you think you could go nc with your DM? She's an alcoholic, I have plenty of experience of this and unless your DF intervenes and she decides to sober the fuck up and start giving a shit about others, then nothing will change.

If she wants no communication, fine, give her that. Change your number, get a new email. If your DF won't support you when your DM is clearly the aggressor in this, then you may have to make a hard decision. He can't be the buffer for evermore. His life is probably made easier by ignoring/excusing her awful behaviour and he may have to make a decision between the two of you. It doesn't have to be forever, but I'm not sure I'd want her round my kids. She's not a good example of a gm. Can you bear to go nc, even if only temporarily (as you don't sound ready to go the full monty)?

Thank you for your reply Portinastorm - your story does sound so like mine. The sad thing is that it's probably just one example of many over the years for you too. I think the fact that its about our own motherhood journey now makes things so different. Like you, I felt I couldn't even mention I was sore after the section - like I was to just 'get on with it'. I know I'm not an attention seeker but she made me feel like I was. I'm glad you seem to have found a good counsellor. I have tried one before but then things blew over again with SCM (I'm stealing that!) and I didn't go back. After I have had this baby I am going to find one and really get my head clear. It's all so complex isn't it. I feel in such a guilty, confused limbo at the moment about the NC thing but on the other hand the thought of seeing/speaking to her sends my heart racing!
Wish you lots of strength.

Gide, you are so right. I think I was expecting my DF to really listen this time and give her the kick up the ass that she has needed her whole life. He does just want an easy life and also likes a drink. He knows that we have all gone through and he has been on the other side of my DM's abuse many a time. It's like they want to live in their own bubble and can't handle going outside their comfort zone one bit. They will be quick to judge anyone else though. I feel like I am on a DM free, blissful holiday at the moment but there is a whole lot of anxiety, nerves and guilt about what's going to happen..... Thanks for your reply. I hope you are in a good place right now?

Gide, you are so right. I think I was expecting my DF to really listen this time and give her the kick up the ass that she has needed her whole life. He does just want an easy life and also likes a drink. He knows that we have all gone through and he has been on the other side of my DM's abuse many a time. It's like they want to live in their own bubble and can't handle going outside their comfort zone one bit. They will be quick to judge anyone else though. I feel like I am on a DM free, blissful holiday at the moment but there is a whole lot of anxiety, nerves and guilt about what's going to happen..... Thanks for your reply. I hope you are in a good place right now?

You've hit the nail on the head, your DF is an enabler, he too likes a drink and they like the life they've created for themselves and don't want it disrupted. Your DF will side with her, because she's trained him up to be her sidekick and to protect her. You'll get the whole guilt trip thing and doing yourself because he is-unbelievably-defending her even though she's been appalling to you.

I'm walking the ledge with my DM: it would take very little for me to tell her where to go but it would mean nc with my DF, who sounds like a carbon copy of yours, makes excuses, blah blah, plus it would be very hard with the rest of the family as they live in each others' pockets. I've shown DM that if she goes too far, she will lose communication. When she tries her mind games, I don't allow it.

What do you want to do, MrsB?

I want to be free of her. She brings nothing positive to my life and I could accept that - I just can't accept the hurt and manipulation and constant need to make me crumble every few months. My everyday life is happy and content apart from this big cloud which I can't explain, but it's her. I feel like I need to say that unless she makes changes I can't have contact. I know she won't change though. I told her in our last big blow up in January that the whole family is going to be ruined if things don't change but she just can't help herself.

On the other hand, I feel sorry for her as she had a bad childhood and has a narc mother (who hasn't been in touch with me since all this kicked off but she's very old and wants an easy life too - understandable). I don't know if the guilt would be worse than the 'living with the toxicity' if you know what I mean? It's the ripple effects and repercussions of cutting off - don't know if I'm brave enough but for my own mental wellbeing I might have to be. I know in my heart I have tried and tried with her and I think that would help me be easier on myself if I did go NC. I don't even care that I'd be painted as the awful, nasty daughter who doesn't let her see the GC because I know the truth. I also worry so much about death, ill health etc on either side. Life is short, but that could be an argument both for and against NC. Ahhhhh.....

That's good that you are strong with your DM and she knows the line that can't be crossed. I hope she can manage to stay behind it.