"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks for the link. I really cannot go to the GP and have this on my medical record. There's far too much "stuff" my mother has influenced as is.

I'm completely isolated, and forced to put on a brave face. So much shit going on I have to deal with.

PDF was really useful information actually.

It's quite ridiculous how long I've carried all this pain and hurt for. From a very young age remembering things my mother did, ingrained in my memory, then the additional years of EAbuse, brother being (and still is) the golden child (and pretty much blanking me at the moment), then being sexually attacked too, both in school by idiotic group of girls then seriously by a man old enough to be my father.

I'm feeling ill tonight too, really spaced out, floaty and numb over my body (no, haven't taken any pharmacological agents!) was considering ringing OOH GP but what's the point? Feels like all my hopes, dreams and happiness have been eroded and stripped away by predominantly my DM.

This thread helps, I'm sorry for the waffling spam...

PDF was really useful information actually.

It's quite ridiculous how long I've carried all this pain and hurt for. From a very young age remembering things my mother did, ingrained in my memory, then the additional years of EAbuse, brother being (and still is) the golden child (and pretty much blanking me at the moment), then being sexually attacked too, both in school by idiotic group of girls then seriously by a man old enough to be my father.

I'm feeling ill tonight too, really spaced out, floaty and numb over my body (no, haven't taken any pharmacological agents!) was considering ringing OOH GP but what's the point? Feels like all my hopes, dreams and happiness have been eroded and stripped away by predominantly my DM.

This thread helps, I'm sorry for the waffling spam...

Steve glad it helped. Sorry you're in such a bad place now, I've been there over the last 2 months. I'm glad this thread helps as well, it's not waffling spam, it's how you are feeling, your feelings are just as important as anyone else's. I know writing helped me get some of it out and down so it wasn't going round and round in my head. Hope you managed to get some sleep and relief.

Steve sorry you've had such a shit time and you've carried too much pain for far too long. Waffle on! It helps.

Thanks Froggyduck and GoodtoBetter. Saturday's conversation has put me back several years in handling my feelings of worthlessness and today it's been interefering with how I am at work. I snapped at a colleague in a meeting with the boss because I felt she was doing the same as my dad - bossily telling me in a meeting how to do my job as far as it relates to her when I've already done it (but it had to be done her way). I felt like I was worthless again.

I know I can't handle talking to him for quite a while now as it's just too damaging for me. But he won't understand why and he'll be all hurt.

Froggyduck your mother sounds awful. How dare she blame you for being abused by your ex! I'm astounded by how destructive parents can be. I know what you mean about your dad being more important to her than you - my Dad always made it clear that God was more important than his children. It's bloody hurtful and the cuts run deep

Cinnamon, I feel your pain. My mum is just like your dad in that she is bossy and insists on telling me not to do this, that and the other, how to raise my DC, even down to what to wear if I'm painting and decorating. She says things like "You're Why are you wearing those tacky old things. Can you not afford anything more decent like a pair of Levis or Diesels?". This is about the scraggy jeans and top I wear for painting and expects me to afford something that would take up 2 weeks food money for us. The woman is unreal.

It's emotionally hard having a narc parent to deal with as it's so mentally and emotionally draining. Sometimes it's even mentally exhausting just thinking about how we're going to deal with them when they start on us.

Does your dad ever wait until everyone else is out of the room before giving you shit? My mum will do that. She'll be all nice in front of everyone (asking if I want a cuppa, making it look as if she is generally supportive), but when everyone else leaves the house, and dad goes to sleep, she'll bitch at me over seriously minor things and tells me I'm bringing shame on the family for swearing on social media. Thing is, my brothers do it all the time and their swearing gets reasoned away. It has actually got to the point where I physically cannot bring myself to go round to their house as I know I'll be treading on eggshells waiting for mum to make snide remarks and be generally very bitchy and scathing about me. It breaks my heart as I'd love to go round to see dad (he hasn't got long now and is deteriorating steadily), but I just cannot face mum anymore.

Sometime it get's us down to the point where we don't know what to do anymore, and as heartbreaking as it is, it feels like the only option we have is to walk away from who we are IYSWIM.

Sorry about the ramble folks, this is getting me down big time.

Welcome back to the thread Steve, feel free to grab a (as I hope the rest of you on here will as well) and have a ramble. If it makes you feel better in any way, please go ahead. Actually, I was thinking about you the last few days and was wondering how you were doing, as you hadn't been on here for a while. I was hoping you were OK, but am glad you're back on here again .

I'm so sorry you're having a rough time of it at the moment. It's so hard trying to keep our MH on an even keel when trying to work through issues regarding abuse. There are so many questions you probably want the answers to, but deep down you may know it's unlikely you'll get the answers you're looking for. This could for a number of reasons. One reason could be that the person wants to hurt you even more by playing power games, knowing that your MH is at a vulnerable point (and they can use that against you). It may be hard to accept that it doesn't matter what reasons there were for them abusing you, just the fact they did it was enough. Unfortunately, as hard as that may be, we have to accept that the guilty party may refuse to divulge any information as to why they did what they did.

I'm heading to bed now as I'm shattered. I hope you all have a good night's sleep.

Oh UpsidedownDog hope you sleep well. Thanks for understanding and I'm sorry your mum is a bitch. I was going to say something nicer but I couldn't find a better word.

I'd seriously consider much much lower contact than you have. I think walking away from damaging people is pretty important strategy for protecting ourselves - a form of self-care even. It's really painful when a parent is deteriorating and you can't be with them or support them how you'd like. Does your mum ever leave the house? Can you buy her absence with sending her on a night/afternoon/whatever out somewhere and then go and visit your dad?

Honestly? My Dad is the nicer of my two parents. But he winds me up more than my mother; my mother is too detached to cause me pain (except for last summer when she hit me. That hurt, emotionally. I've pretty much given up on her).

FuckThis, a narc will always think about their façade and how they're coming across to others. They'll play the nice card in front of other people, but 'behind closed doors', IYSWIM, they'll be a completely different person toward the scapegoat. If your mum's neighbours are noticing that you haven't visited, they may well be wondering why. If you go round there again and they ask you why you haven't visited in a while, don't be afraid to tell them.

.

Thanks Arion and Cinnamon :)

What hasn't helped is seeing a counsellor in January and then the wait for a new one after he screwed me around. All the nasty feelings and memories bubbling up to the surface and then the need to wait. I really wish j had the cash to go and see someone privately.

Thanks Upside - I'm quite resigned to never receiving answers for anything. When I questioned her behaviour stopping me from going to college and university she denied it and tried to spin in back onto me. I love my dad deeply but due to disability my time getting out of the house is severely restricted - also bedbound. I don't even want to talk to mother on the phone as she is so passive aggressive and unreasonable. My father has been passively enabling and minimising my mothers behaviour for many years - he's a lovely man and I adore him. Yet he's so defensive when anyone tries to talk to him about mother. He also sees my brother as the golden child. It's a huge fuckoff impenetrable wall they have both built over the years enabling the abuse and fortifying their defences. A narc parent is bad!

I have started self harming, have done it twice just to relieve some pressie. I'm ok, don't worry. I intend to see my GP this week to explain the anxiety/panic attacks and ask for benzodiazepines to help,change my antidepressants which aren't working and change my opioids.

Huge to all of you, you're awesome.

I'm feeling useless technologically too. When I was working I was at the top of my field, yet stopped due to DW having problems with her diabetes and then falling disabled myself.

It's so hard being reduced so much financially and having life determined like this. I picked up a tech book yesterday and started trying to bolster my old knowledge. So much has changed in the field, it's almost unrecognisable. Not sure I could catch up - and who would employ someone old and out of work for so long even if I recovered.

I do have my OU degree to look forward too in October (deferred in Jan due to SLC errors) - need to make sure I've selected the right degree and hope I can have enough fatigue and pain free hours to do it.

The pain has been really bad lately,bits hard with the panic attacks on top. Hope GP csn help...

Is it possible to ever recover? I feel that I make a little progress for a while and then the tiniest thing sends me back into awful insecurity, shame, and self-loathing. People can say lovely things about me and I just can't believe them. I'm beginning to think these feelings will always be there.

I went to the GP today. She's increased my anti-depressant dosage (and considering changing them to Fluoxetine or Sertraline if no improvement) and given me som Diazepam for the anxiety attacks.

I didn't mention the self harm. Every minute is emotionally excruciating at the moment. Had to speak to my mother today. I let something slip and she validated two things for me. It's never been so exactingly clear how little she cares.

Cherry, it is possible to recover, but you may have to push yourself outside your comfort zone to do so. This is make you very uncomfortable to the point of tears, but it can be well worth the discomfort. I found that pushing myself outside my comfort zone actually liberates me and allows me to be free to constantly evolve into a better person. My mantra for this is "I WILL get through this". I've repeated this so many times now that have become a stubborn mare (my fat staffies have taught me a thing or two about determination, stamina, patience and stubbornness LOL).

When people pay you a compliment on your politeness/manners/kindness etc, it may make you feel uncomfortable, or even strange, accepting these compliments, but when they come from friends, it says that they know what they're talking about. By that I mean that they know and understand you better than so many people, so they have at least some authority to say these things. I doubt your friends would pay you a compliment if they didn't believe you were a decent person. As for those who made your life a misery, you don't have to have anything to do with them. You can't choose your family, but you can choose whether you associate with them.

Steve, if you're going to see your GP, it may be helpful to ask about Pregabalin (Lyrica is the brand name). It has helped me immensely. I suffer from excruciating back pain and anxiety, due to mum's treatment of me as a young child. This drug helped my pain to a great extent (not fully, but enough to carry on with my day-to-day life as a busy mum of 2) and if my dose was put up, I would literally be pain free. It would be worth asking about it.

It's lovely to hear that your intending to do an OU degree. It'll give you something to aim for. I'm already enrolled with the OU studying Psychology, of all things LOL. I just want to help people, and having worked in may care homes and EMI units, it was very rewarding to just see a smile on the resident's faces. I loved that and no amount of pay could compare to it. Knowing I made someone happy, even momentarily, was so good and made the job worthwhile.

I hope you get your meds sorted and are more pain-free for a long time. It's ridiculous the anxiety people can induce in us, just by being nasty. By default, we love our parents, but as we grow, understand more and mature we see them for who they really are. If they're nice people, they'll be firm but fair, and if they're not, then they could either be mentally ill or just plain nasty by nature.

Anyway, I'll stop waffling and go to bed and leave you good folks alone for a while . Good night all. I hope you all sleep well tonight

Thanks UpsidedownDog.

I think maybe some of how I feel is down to recently taking a few emotional risks. They've actually paid off, but I feel so vulnerable. I can hear voices from the past in my head all the time telling me I'm ugly, no one likes me etc.

DH and I have got a great circle of friends around us now, and they've actually taught me what family should look like, and really encouraged my confidence. I worry that I'll lose everything I've gained. When people tell me I'm a good mum, I look nice, they love me etc, my head says yes, I receive that, but my heart won't believe it. I had counselling last year which helped so much, I seem to have hit a rough patch. Thank you for taking time to respond.

What a great idea this thread is. When it's your own childhood, everything that happened is like a confused mess in your head, because it's so difficult to look at it objectively.

I've realised that my parents were completed absorbed in ther own lives and problems. My Dad had manic depression (in the days when you were told to 'pull yourself together'), he was an alcoholic (but would never admit it) and life throughout my childhood consisted of cycles - domestic violence followed by periods of guilt and promises, followed by building tension and domestic violence again.

My Dad was angry, controlling, unpredictable and irrational. My Mum could not cope with him so I was constantly dragged into their arguments to be a witness for her, when my dad could not remember what happened the next day. "What did he say? He said xyz didn't he?" "How did he say it to me?" "What did he do to me?/You saw him to xyz didn't you." "What did he promise to do?".

When he'd been drinking we'd be treading on egg shells. I could not sleep. I stayed awake all night believing anything was possible - he could kill my mother or come and kill me. I feared for my life. We would plan how she would leave him, then when they made up it would all be swept under the carpet, like it never happened.

To me my Dad was a stranger I dreaded coming home. We never had a normal conversation. He never said ANYTHING nice to me. He barked orders and interrogated. TBH I just wished he'd die or go away. We have a better relationship now, but he still has drinking issues.

As an adult I look back and realise my Mum was very selfish. She never encouraged or supported hobbies. Didn't turn up to parents' evenings, concerts or awards ceremonies. Or if she did, she would make it clear it was in protest and leave as early as she could (often in the middle of it). She was jealous when I went to University. She thought she'd lost the best years of her life with my Dad and felt bitter about it. When we were young she used to go on about how she was 'trapped' and it was out fault because she could leave if she didn't have us kids.

Oh and I am often told how great our childhood was because we "went on lots of lovely holidays".....!

UpsideDown - I'm already on a slew of medications, including Pregablin. I take 600mg a day of it. I suffer from severe M.E, it renders me bedbound and with excruciating pain in every joint, GP said I'm in the worst 5% of all cases and the worst she's seen. Bit of a nightmare really, and the fatigue is ridiculous!

Am looking forward to the OU degree, I've signed up for Computer Science. Before my DW started suffering problems with her T1 diabetes during pregnancy with DD I worked as a successful web design consultant, contributed to books and technically reviewed some too. Was a shame to give it all up (DW suffered numerous problems over the last 16 years after gifting birth), then I became bedbound six years ago. Am wondering if I should stay with my usual field or go for something new!

My mother prevented me from going to college and university, she controlled so many things from early age until I left home at 20, she definitely an EA narcissist.

Thanks for your posts,city great to talk to someone and have the support network there:)

Hi, I have posted on these before under a different name. I've been wondering how do you set boundaries with a narc? My narc brother phones me daily regardless of what I'm doing and if I don't answer he rings until I do. Even when I go to see my parents he will ring and they put him on despite my pleas that I want a break from him.

Setting boundaries with a narcissist is hard.

Narcissists typically have poor boundaries themselves; they like to win and maintain power, and they don’t like others setting boundaries on them. They even feel above the boundaries of the law — they don’t follow court orders and they find personal boundaries easy to violate.

How does he know you are there when you visit your parents?.

I would block the number being used from your phone and mobile; your parents (his willing enablers) are not going to listen to you either. I would also seriously consider reporting this to the police because of his harassment. Malicious or abusive phone calls are a criminal offence, under section 43 of the Telecommunications Act, 1984,. Alternatively, The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 covers many forms of harassment involving persistent contact that causes distress.

Thanks Attila. He usually rings my parents and asks if I'm there. He has actually worried my parents once because I didn't check my phone until the evening and he called my parents and told them I wasn't responding so my dad was made to drive to my house as they have a spare key to check I hadn't had an accident. As the family scapegoat, I was blamed for this.

I presume either one or both parents meekly reply that yes his sister i.e. you are in the house. He has really done a number on them.

Your dad made his own choice to drive over to your house post your brother's demand; he did not have to do that at all and not surprisingly you were also blamed.

Your parents enable the dysfunction to continue and are really still dancing to their golden child's tune. You are still very much the scapegoat for all your family of origin's inherent ills.

How much contact do you have with your parents these days; I would further lower all forms of contact with them and certainly report your brother's harassment to the authorities.

My mum is also a narc and my dad enables her behaviour. My brother and sister are pretty much the golden children who do wrong. I never call my parents and they never bother either.

Just reading through the thread: and to everyone on here - it can be really hard and exhausting to just get up and fight your mentality and your feelings day after day. We all deserved so much more.

Snowwhite my mum is a narc and my dad an enabler too. I agree with Attila that you need to consider dropping your contact with your parents. You don't need to be there when your brother rings. Ever.

What would you lose by reporting your brother to the authorities for harassment? I presume you've already asked him not to bother you so much and he's not listened to you.

Ooh SeriousSteve - the option of continuing Computer Sc or going for something new sounds exciting! If it was something new, do you have something in mind?

UpsideDown just realised I didn't answer about whether my Dad is nice in public but not in private. No - Dad is a funny case in that he's such a people pleaser he'll be 'lovely' to everyone, although in reality he doesn't realise it's just talking about himself the whole time. He imagines himself to be someone much more supportive and thoughtful than he really is. In reality he's a self absorbed enabler who holds dogmatic and bigoted views, and imposes them on other people.

It's my Mum who is the narc. She doesn't bother being nice in public though if she's not in the mood. She can be bloody charming when she wants, but that's becoming rarer. She's usually just a grumpy narc who has a narc rage if you disagree with her. She hit me with intent last summer (she's had her fist in my face before but had never actually hit me). She's old and weak but it was the final straw for me. I cried for weeks.