"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Good evening ladies. Just a quick drop-in here as I'm heading to bed very soon.

Mrs TM, you need to go NC with your mum as she may well use your DC against you. By having DC, you're taking your attention away from your mum, and focussing on your child. That, for a narc, is something that may enrage them and so they tend to seek revenge against those who 'wrong' them. By not making your mum the focus of your attention (by daring to have DC) your mum will probably be feeling less important, and because narcs have delusions of grandeur and importance, anyone making them feel less important (by not focussing on THEM) will be someone may want to get revenge on.

The narc (your mum) can do this by cutting contact with you and then saying to others that you don't contact her. She'll do everything she can to make you out to be the bad one, with her 'woe is me' tales of how she can't see her beloved GC. Another way is if contact with GC is still ongoing. She may be incredibly nice to your DC. This is just a façade to turn your DC against you. Another way the narc, who loses attention and focus, can get back at you is to absolutely slate you and tell others outright barefaced lies. It's more than likely their 'loyal followers', ie, the people she has blinded to her own behaviour and cannot see for the narc she is, will believe everything she says.

You need to ask yourself if you want to risk this happening to your DC. Don't forget that the narc will do everything they can to make themselves out to be the good guy and you to be the horrible person.

As I've said before, the decent people will come to you and ask you for your side before making a judgement. You just need to tell them the truth because they will work it out for themselves and realise that your mum is a toxic person and not to be trusted.

Anyway, am off to bed now, but hope your good self and other good ladies on here will take care of yourselves

Night all

Hi there, marking my place as i have a very difficult relationship with my mother. Im almost certain she's a narc.
I went pretty much/NC with her last year with the odd contact in passing. But it all came to a head again recently when I was in hospital. She took it upon herself to visit without notification. Caused a huge upset on the ward in front of my friends (thankfully it was a sideroom so minimum embarassment and my friend made it sure she was swiftly sent off the ward to calm down). Oh and also took it upon herself to have a word with the nurses as she left, when she discovered my Dad was the next of kin and give them her contact details instead
I was pretty ill at the time (hooked up to nebulisors, drips etc ) and everyone's main concern was for my health.
After i was out of hospital and well enough, I spoke to her afterwards and told her her behaviour was appalling (it was met with denial no apology and the accusation that I was the one in the wrong and I made her ill!)
I guess the main reason I am posting is just for general support, I have a few friends but many have bought into her 'woe is me' routine.
I know I am only young but my health has deteriorated in the past few years, and there is a possibility of me needing to go into hospital at a later date for some more tests. Do you think it would be worth writing a short letter of some sort to notify medical staff that she is NOT to be informed/notified under any circs in the future?

snowgirl,

How did she discover that you were in hospital, who told her where you were?. Your dad?.

"Do you think it would be worth writing a short letter of some sort to notify medical staff that she is NOT to be informed/notified under any circs in the future?"

Yes most definitely but this comes back to my original question, who told her?.

Like many such disordered types, she has made it all about her. Talking to her afterwards about her behaviour was a waste of time though, these people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. People/flying monkeys who see your mother as simply "poor me" are not worth bothering about. They do not want to seek the truth and get your version of events. Such people too are usually acting in their own self interest and not in yours; they are truly not your friends.

Hi there AttilaTheMeerkat it was a friend of hers that found out and told her. I think it was done with the best of intentions. friend also thinks the sun shines out her arse and 'deserved' to know I don't want to say too much in case I 'out' myself so to speak.

That person and acted purely as a flying monkey.

He/she acted in his/her best interest rather than yours by meddling. Such a person should be summarily dismissed from your life; this person simply cannot be trusted and is certainly not your friend.

Welcome to the thread SnowGirl, good evening to you Atilla and to the rest of the wonderful ladies on here

SnowGirl, sorry to hear you've been so ill. You should write a short letter to the medical staff, making it clear that your mum is NOT to be informed of any illness you have been for in the past or will be treated for in the future. You could simply say that as you are NC with your mum due to major ongoing issues, she is not to be informed about any treatment you have received or will receive and that you do not want her allowed on your ward/bay to interact with you in any way/shape/form.

With DNR being the acronym for Do Not Resuscitate, DNI on medical note should mean Do Not Inform and should be put against the names of anyone the patient is NC with.

Atilla is right that this friend, who told your mum, is not to be trusted. Please tell your friends that your mum's friend is not to know. It's all well and fair the medical staff knowing about this, but if someone who knows your mum (but not your issues with her) ends up in the same ward, but not the same bay, then they may think it OK to let your mum know. Not saying it will happen, but I know of someone in a similar position (let's call her X) who had a neighbour of her mum (let's call mum's neighbour Y) in the next bay of the same ward. Y had to pass X's bay to go to the toilet and told X's mum about X being in hospital without knowing about X going NC with her mum due to the mum being a narc. That said, when X told Y about those issues, Y apologised and vowed to only talk to X's mum about trivial things like the weather etc. So although it's probably not very likely, it's definitely not unheard of.

Anyway, I'll quit my jibber-jabber , how are you feeling? I hope you're recovering well. Nowt more boring than lying in hospital not able to do much. I'm sure you're glad to be out and at home.

Atilla is a great person for advice. SHe has helped many of the posters on here and I have found her advice to be pretty much common sense.

Hey ladies. Can anyone who's no contact tell me if this gets better, how long it took to feel better and for the sadness to lift and feel more free?! I'm glad I've gone no contact and I know she's no good for my mental health bur I just feel so so sad most of the time. I'll be laughing with the kids and then just remember and my heart aches. Does it get better? Sometimes I feel like it was better before I saw the truth, although I know that wasn't really. I just wish it didn't have to be like this, I have such a lovely little life away from her but I just can't seem to enjoy it x

Hi light
can only speak from my own experience. i was low contact for about 1 year until events meant i decided nc was my only option. it was not at all easy and caused me much pain and indecision , but as the year of nc has past ( although I have seen my so called mother at family occasions but not planned and avoided where possible)
I can see that I am more relaxed and accepting that I have done the right thing.

I still have wobbles , but they are more about regret that i dont have a family i can be close to , rather than i have failed . I am kinder to myself.

In my case yes it does get better , and you cant avoid the truth. your gut instinct will always lead you to your truth.

hang on , believe in yourself and be very thankful for the good things you do have in your life and the bad things will become a faraway memory as time passes

all the best x

Good morning ladies. How is everyone today? Got the kettle on, so anyone who fancies a cuppa can have a [smile

Light, the aching you feel is probably the yearning for the mother you should have had, as opposed to the one you got. If I didn't know any better, I'd hazard a guess and say that you see other 'normal' families interacting with each other and showing love. Is it that you feel sad that you didn't have that? If it is, then it's perfectly normal to feel this way. After all, you missed out on a lot of your childhood because of the way your mum was and how she treated you.

Where you should have been out playing with your friends, without a care in the world, you may have been conditioned to think that you were there to please your mum, and that your friends came way down the importance scale. In a way, a narc will take up 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in the lives of their scapegoats. The more the scapegoat tries to please a narc, the more the narc expects from the scapegoat and the higher those expectations are. In short, the scapegoat will never please the narc as the narc will want and expect more than their victim can give.

Will be back soon. I've just to go feed my fat staffies, who are complaining that they're wasting away

Hi port, thanks for your reply. I'm glad to hear you are doing better now. It is such a hard thing to do, it's hard to believe people think you would do it for no good reason. I've already seen my mother at a family occasion and it was brutal so hopefully I will be stronger for next one as this time the no contact was very new.

Yes I can definitely relate to it more about not having the close family rather than actually missing these people that made life hell, I feel like I tried to do the happy family thing, tried to be the loving supportive daughter/sister/auntie and just got trampled all over, as did my kids. But at the same time I feel guilty that my kids have less family now.

Yes I feel so so lucky for what I do have, I just wish I could enjoy it more and not have this poison on my head. That's what I mean when I say I wish I never had them in my kids lives, I wish I'd seen the truth and processed it before I had them as I feel like it's put a dark cloud over so much of their childhood and I feel guilty I let them form a bond.

Thanks so much for your reply and telling me it does get better, it's so hard to believe in yourself when you have been conditioned not to the way we have xxx

Morning upsidedowndog, sat here with my brew, thank you

Oh gosh yes I remember seeing normal family interactions and thinking it was all fake, seeing people on tv and thinking no one acts like that on real life, even now I wonder if my expectations are too high, she tells me that me and my husband and children live in a bubble and it needs popping. I do feel like I missed a lot of of my childhood in a mess because of the things happening at home, but them I thought it was normal life and I was wrong for being how I was, she insists I was happy little thing until I became an evil teenager though.......(depressed, self harming and suicidal one that dared question her sometimes) but I remember not being. I remember panic attacks whilst they laughed and I thought I was dying, I remember sitting with my dad's alcohol playing alcoholics (my nan and dad are/was alcoholics, my nan passed from it and was always at my house and I was always staying at hers), I remember never being home as I couldn't bare it. I wasn't happy, I was probably just easier to ignore.

She wasn't really bothered what I was doing tbh, as long as i wasn't bothering her. She never got cross at me for drinking or having sex etc but would lose it if I said something she didn't like. She did not give a shit about me unless she wanted me. Still doesn't. I never really formed good friendships until I moved out though and that's probably why. Even now my best friend and person who has always been there and done so much for me and my family, my mum hates her!

Yep my mum seems to expect absolute perfection from me (whilst mocking me for thinking I'm so perfect) whilst golden boy has done some seriously fucked up stuff but it's all cool, there were reasons, it's no5 his fault, you know the drill lol!

Thanks for your reply, hope your fat staffies enjoyed their breakfast xxx

Light, the problem with being a scapegoat is that the narc, when you meet their need and achieve what they thought you wouldn't, will generally move the goalposts. This is so you won't meet all their expectations and so they can use you as their punch bag. Generally, narcs need 2 types of people. The golden child(ren) and the scapegoats. They always compare the scapegoat with the GC everything the GC is reasoned away, whereas everything the scapegoat isn't good enough and they're not trying hard enough.

The thing is, narcs are incredibly insecure in everything they say and do, so that insecurity manifests itself as vile behaviour toward one or more people. From that understanding, I actually think they need pitied rather than despised. They are mentally weak people, BUT, the way I see it, by being vile to us, they have taught us how to become stronger people IYSWIM. By going NC with the narc, we have taken the first step toward being a stronger person. Now you can say "I'll show you what I'm made of", and lay the foundations for a better life. That would wind them up something shocking and it's a great way to get your own back. Narcs generally hate to see their former scapegoat being happy. Many of these people are at their happiest when they have someone to verbally, mentally and emotionally batter.

The narc's hatred can come from being so insecure that they do no like anyone to be happy. They also tend to dislike people who can see through their façade. When you think about it, a narc's life really is pathetic, and this is why I think they deserve pity. Because they are mentally and emotionally weak and fragile.

Anyway, let's not worry about that. What are you planning for your future? Have you any plans to study at university to make a better life for yourself and your family? Do you have a job? If so, are you aiming for promotion?

Hi Stately Homers, I really need some advice. I've set up my own thread in relationships and no one has replied so far. Maybe people haven't seen it or had long enough to respond. And it is very long! Would anyone from this thread mind having a look at my thread please? I really need some advice. It's the Narc being Nice thread.

Apologies if this is against the rules or frowned upon. Just feeling so down and unsure what to do.

Light Oh gosh yes I remember seeing normal family interactions and thinking it was all fake

I remember thinking normal family interactions were middle class! (My friends in school were all a bit posher than me). And thinking that my ideas about raising children - allowing them freedom, being honest with them, helping them foster their friendships and interests - were sort of really hippyish "alternative" type ideas when in fact they're basically just you know, decent non-abusive parenting.

Keef I'll go and have a look at your post now.

Thank you TooMuch x

Hi again upsidedowndog. Yeah I can see that. I'm not even sure what she wants from me. I'm not even sure what I did wrong other than tell the truth to my brothers girlfriend when she ran away from my abusive brother to my house with her children, in an attempt to explain why my brother is the way he is (not by any means to excuse his behaviour) but his girlfriend went back and told my mum what I had said and added in some stuff for extra entertainment (I'm not sure if she added the extra or my mum did) but my brothers girlfriend also told me stuff my mum apparently said so she's clearly a stirrer....but anyway other than that I'm not sure what I did. I can only assume she thinks if she kept shouting at me for lying I would just be like ok I'm lying when I never lied?! Idk. It's strange how I'm supposed to keep forgiving and forgetting but she can't let go of any small slight thing I do. There are other things I guess she's painted me as wrong for any I can't get my head round why but I don't want to go on lol. I just worry if it's a case of people seeing things differently rather than she's a raging narc, but she does check all the boxes. The thought that I'm taking a mothers child and grandchildren away makes me feel awful as well but at the same time she's not attempted to contact me either.

Yeah I think living a good life winds her up especially if I'm not involving her in everything and it's not thanks to her etc, it seems the better my life gets the nastier she becomes. But she will go on about how well my brother is doing, how much money he's got how in love him and his gf are. She will also slag his gf off a lot though and sometimes him if he does something she doesn't like so he gets shit too.

I'm currently a sahm to 4 kids, my husband is self employed and works a lot of hours so it's easier this way, he's doing really well though and we are in the process of buying our first house, something I never thought we would manage! I'm not even sure what I want to do when my youngest starts school, all I ever wanted was to be a mum so it's scary to think about it lol xxx

Welcome to the thread Keef. Here, have a and some . Sorry to hear that you're feeling so down. I hope the wonderful ladies on this thread can help you with whatever you're having to deal with. This is the first day of the rest of your life, so let's help you make the steps forward to improving your MH and your life. You can't change the past, so you're best off looking to how you can make your future better .

Light, one of the problems (among many with narcs is that they like their scapegoats to slate them then have them come back to try and find out what they did to upset the narc. Many victims inadvertently apologise for things they have absolutely no need to apologise for. It's one form of classic narc manipulation. It's the narc conditioning the victim to appease them and so the narc has 'won' IYSWIM. The narc will continue to win until their victim stand up to them and tells them "That's it. I'm not taking any more of your shit. Good bye", or something to that effect. The shit will hit the fan, and the flying monkeys will be enlisted to try to hoover you back into the fold to play your role again. You don't have to let it happen. You can let the narc know that if they and their flying monkeys contact you, you'll be getting the police involved. When you intent to tell them, make sure you record yourself telling them so you have evidence against them if they persist. Don't forget to inform them that you are recording the conversation and every one thereafter. That way you are allowing them to decide whether they care enough about their behaviour to adjust it for the recording and they are aware that they are being recorded. It also covers your back as well.

Anyway, am off to walk the mad mutts (my male staff has pulled a muscle, so will have to just walk him until he heals), but will be back soon.

Take care y'all

What is it with my brother who has decided we are ok as a family, not that dysfunctional because our parents are not criminals or paedophiles...so that's ok then...never mind that our parents were neglectful, bought alcohol and fags with their limited income instead of clothing us, keeping the house warm. Scared the absolute shit out of me when they woke me up with their frequent violent, alcoholic arguments. That my mother is insanely jealous of my father getting any positive attention.
I thought I was over this shit, I seriously thought I had dealt with it, forgiven them, moved on. My parents have been though another crisis which has required all my siblings to pull together to help drag them though it. They all seem completely deluded dsis starts rabbiting on about what great parents they were and how we should all club together to make their last few years all about luxury and love and I explode, I can't cope with the hypocrisy. But I feel mean spirited towards the 85 year olds who gave me life. My Mum seems to have forgotten everything she has done - she has rewritten history in her head. I feel so angry with all the enabling bullshit, actually I feel annoyed that my siblings are pretending that everything was fine, that we had a great childhood and I'm being unreasonable dragging up the past. I just want the anger to go again.

Sorry I should have introduced myself....rather than going straight into rant mode, but I have written my post below so many times in the last few weeks - it felt like I had, I've just never posted it.

I don't think I have to worry about that upsidedowndog, not heard anything from them since I told her I was done. The thing with my brothers gf was over a year ago, she just bought it up recently as a reason to argue with me, apparently she couldn't get passed the anger of my 'lies' along with dragging up a lot of past stuff such as my depression as a teenager just to tell me it was a joke. I feel stupid for getting sucked into the gfs shit stirring but I thought I was helping idk. So much I can see I did wrong and would change but I guess they'd just find something else to throw at me. I just wish I could be sure I'm doing the right thing as losing a child really is the ultimate punishment. I couldn't bare losing one of mine. I don't even know what I think anymore my mind is a mess. Xxx

That's the thing though she can still be angry about my 'lies' (truth that she doesn't like) over a year later but I'm supposed to forgive things, much worse things straight away without remorse or apology.

Hi stately, any chance you are the scapegoat? Children in dysfunctional families have roles in the family and therefore can have what seems different childhoods I guess. My brothers are in my parents pockets (although one appeared to start seeing it but then stopped talking to me) I'm the only one that sees things as dysfunctional so it seems xxx

Atlas I think I am the scapegoat atm because I am refusing to comply with the majority and I suppose I have realised that I no longer care as much about what my siblings think of me and that is bringing a lot of feelings to the surface. Maybe my anger is about my siblings rather than my parents....they're desire to pretend it didn't happen, their fear of my parents dying and feeling guilty about the end.
I just want the end to come - I know that sounds awful but I've had enough, I want the end to come, I want the end of the need to communicate with my siblings. I want to live in peace.

at last I don't think losing contact with an adult son or daughter is as much of a big deal for narcs as for other people. Or at least, they miss you from r different reasons (miss the narcissistic supply). I agree that losing contact with a son or daughter with whom you had a close loving relationship would be tragic, but frankly none of us had that relationship, we were either ignored or actually emotionally exploited to shore up their huge and fragile egos. They had the chance to have a loving relationship with us when we were vulnerable children, they didn't want it then, they can hardly complain now.

What also comes across in your posts is that you're trying to figure out what combination of behaviour will make her be nice to you. Forget it, you're the scapegoat, you can't do it right. The more perfect you are, the more annoyed she gets as she is unable to work out her negative feelings on you.