"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Vonnie, if she lives near by and can drive, she may call at your house. She may give you a knock knowing that you're in, but you do not have to answer the door to her. Even if you do, you can tell her that you're not interested in having a discussion with her, you do not want her to call at your house again and close the door. If she persists, call the police. That's harassment. You've told her you no longer want her to call at your house and she should understand that.

You are right to block her, so if you have to call the police, then tell them that you've blocked her on your phone and told her that you want her to leave you alone. After that, keep a diary handy specifically to write down any harassment incidents, the time, date, what was said and done (foot in door/shouting at you etc) and your response. Make sure you stay calm and don't swear at her.

Can you have CCTV with audio installed and inform her of it. That way if she calls and gets angry, you have the evidence. AFAIK you can record someone if you inform them that you are doing so. As long as she knows, and make sure you record yourself telling her, then you have evidence of telling her, therefore she can't deny it.

HelpMe, please don't feel guilty. Your mum treated you appallingly, and has now poisoned others against you. You are allowed to not like your mum. Just because she gave birth to you, it doesn't mean she gets to treat you like shit when it suits her. You need to let go of the person you wanted to care for you and care for yourself.

By doing this, you can get your own indirect revenge by being strong, AND, by living to a standard that suits you, you will be showing your mum that you don't need her anymore. Your revenge will be your mum being furious that you won't be pandering to her. That will be your time to step back and start healing. It'll take a long time and you may not heal completely, but once you get to the stage where you can look back without feeling guilty for your mum's actions and lack of emotional support, then you can strive to move on with your life.

Use every second to imagine that you are growing stronger. This is what I did, and although I've been feeling emotionally rough, I'm strong in the knowledge that I'll get through whatever my mum, and her flying monkeys, throw at me.

Stand tall, but believe in yourself and your abilities

It's all part of the drama triangle isn't it? Sibling A is perpetrator, sibling B is enabler and excuses her persistent lies, because she doesn't want to rock the boat (even though some of the lies are about her!). And I'm the victim feeling all useless, hurt and helpless about the feelings it's all brought out but unable to confront the defective behaviour head on.

Vonnie I totally identify with feelings being triggered even when the behaviour is not at that moment particularly awful

But scars have been left by the previous wounds and I suppose it's a bit like snapping at someone to be careful around an injury even though they haven't actually hurt you yet?

ArundelTomb I think people who damage others are always damaged people first but it's impossible to know for sure if the damage came from the sibling she alleges did the abuse.

I was a fucked up kid, I accused someone of something they didn't do. I needed to be rescued and nobody was listening. I didn't have the comprehension that my mother was emotionally abusive so I told somebody she was physically abusive, but I could have as easily said it about my brother or my dad tbh - I was a child asking for help the only way anybody appeared to listen and pay attention

I think it's quite possible it wasn't your other sibling who perpetrated it but that they've still been abused

Hi LineyReborn, no not talked it through with counsellor yet, we did some work on core beliefs this week and self-compassion. I'd said there were issues from Mum and Dad, but he deliberately kept away from those to make the session easier on me. My PHQ-9 score has spiked each time after a session, I was up to 19 (top end of moderately severe depression) and I was a lot lower score when I started. I have said I think I need to explore that though, next session is next Thursday.

You threw me a bit if I'm honest, there is so much on this thread that I look at and think how awful of the parents, so it threw me that you reacted to mine so strongly. I guess I'm still minimising, mum has affected me more with the rejection through sulking. With dad I know it wasn't right, but I minimise that it was just a kiss, just some comments, I know there is a lot worse that happens to children. It's affected me in some ways though but more a misplaced anger, I can't watch The Railway Children and I struggle a bit with things with Jenny Aggutter in as she was apparently a bit of crumpet inThe Railway Children. I know she was late teens in that, but she was supposed to be a fucking child in the story, seeing her creeps me out.

Had a name change, was helpmepleasexxx but is sounded so desperate and needy, and although I'm still feeling quite sad I am no longer in the horrendous place I was when I signed up to mum's net. Chose the name due to tangled, I'm sure you all know the similarities between mother gothel and a typical narcissist mother.

Thank you upsidedowndog, you are very right but I was referring to the guilt about talking bad about my auntie, I didn't lost respect for her even if she did me, I know how manipulative my mother can be so as much as she should have spoken to me before making judgements etc I don't blame her. Although I do feel a lot of guilt about the situation with my mother, esp the whole estranged grandparents thing, she's joined a group and let me know that she has......

I feel so much guilt about everything though and I'm working on it. I noticed once I had found out about narcissistic mothers how much guilt she puts on me all the time so it's no wonder I feel like I do.

She tells me I make her feel exactly how she makes me feel, it's confused me for so long but I'm wondering if that just means she knows exactly how she makes me feel so says I make her feel that way to confuse me and make me question myself?

Hope you are all ok this morning

Hi Arion I reacted to that part of your story because sadly when I was a teenager my father became a serious drinker and he did similarly wildly inappropriate things. He died recently. I feel very conflicted. Anyway, you're not alone

Thank you Liney, it helps knowing I'm not over reacting.

AtLast, your mum is manipulating you into confusion, if that makes sense. OK, so I'll explain what I mean. She's very creative in using manipulation to confuse you, and she's doing that by telling you, that how you feel is how she feels. The confusion is where you may be thinking "How are you feeling the same way when you were the one who caused this?" IYSWIM.

It's hard to believe that your mum is feeling the same way as you. It's like she's on the boss being scathing about their employee and yet at the same time, telling the employee that they are feeling that too??? In short, your mum is distracting, confusing and playing you. For your own MH, you need to step back and go NC with her.

As for your aunt, I understand that your mum manipulated her into thinking you were the bad one, but at the same time, she is still responsible for her actions. You mum blinded your aunt to her own (your mum's) behaviour and used you as a convenient scapegoat. That doesn't stop or reduce your aunt being responsible for her own actions though. If your aunt didn't want/wasn't prepared to listen to your side of the story, then that is not your fault. You're not a bad person, you've just been made out to be by the person who should have cared for you.

On a positive note, this is the first day of the rest of your life, so make a vow to plough through all this crap and sort it out. Even if it means pushing yourself well out of your comfort zone. You know you will get better and no-one gets mentally and emotionally better by standing still, as opposed to working through the hurt etc.

Whatever the original reason, FTSY, it became nastiness towards you. Maybe she got 'stuck' but that's not what matters. Parents shouldn't be using their children to offload their own angers and resentments

FTSY, I don't have any answers but my mum is a narcissist who had recurrent miscarriage and I know my dad sometimes forgave some of her behaviour because of that. I don't think that's right, reallly - first of all, as someone who also had recurrent miscarriage I don't think that or any other trauma gives you a free pass to be an arsehole. But also, I've read that narcissism usually arises in people who were abused or neglected when they were young toddlers. So I think it wouldn't have stopped you being mistreated in one way or another - it might have been a different dynamic, you might have been the golden child for example, but that can be as bad in a different way.

FTSY it is hard to know, like said above it usually happens because of I'll treatment in childhood so I should imagine it would have happened anyway. I also think any decent loving mother going through something like that would end up loving their living children more?! All I know is going through bad stuff does not give you right to give other other people crap, especially your own children. Big hugs.

Upsidedowndog, yeah you make sense. For a long time I was like oh maybe we are as bad as each other and I'd try to see it from her side etc, but at other times she would actually copy word for word what I'd say to her but a few months later if that makes sense, felt like she had no feelings of her own so was using mine! But I'd still be there trying to figure out if I was treating her as badly as she was treating me, after all she really could not see how hurtful she was being, what if I was being the same.

Agree about my aunt it's just hard as she's gone now. And I do love her. I will never get over not having a good relationship with her before she passed.

I've been no contact for coming up a couple of months so just processing it all. Hopefully start to feel better soon. Thanks for your input it means a lot xxz

FTSY,

It is said that toxic stuff can - and does - go down the generations and your post is a case in point. Your mother has simply shown you the relationship she had with her own mother; an emotionally neglectful one that she simply transferred onto you.

Re your comment:-
"She keeps telling me my children will end up "in a home" due to their clothes being unironed. She used to threaten to put me in a home a lot too, but I think that was not uncommon parenting in the 70s".

Re this I hope you managed to give that remark the contempt it really deserves; what was your response to that?. I sincerely hope she did not say that within earshot of your children. As for your second sentence it was uncommon parenting even back in the 70s, these are really the words of an emotionally abusive and neglectful parent.

She may well be a narcissist in terms of personality; it is not your fault she is the ways she is. You did not make her that way, her own family of origin did that to her.

I would take your current level of contact with your mother and further lower it; she is not an ideal role model at all for you or your children to be at all around.
Its not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist in any event.

And that is why you will not turn out like your mother; you have two qualities that she sadly lacks and those are empathy and insight. You know that your childhood treatment of you was and is emotionally neglectful. I think your base fears are unfounded really.

Have you ever discussed all this with a therapist; if so it is imperative you find someone who has NO bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

I would think your children think you are fine as a mother; you likely pay more emotional attention to them than your mother ever did to you for a start.

Your mother gave birth to you but you are not your mother; you and she are two totally different people. She is very much a product of her own emotionally neglectful upbringing and decided to do the same when she had you because it was all she knew and never sought the necessary help for her problems. Instead she blamed you which was utterly wrong on all levels.

Finding this thread has really moved me. I recently 'diagnosed' my DM as being a narcissist and myself as the scapegoat (although one of my other sisters assumes the role at times too). It has been such an eye opener for me and helps me to understand our dynamic and stops me from being too affected by her actions, even though I do slip sometimes!
Thank you all for sharing your stories... It has really helped me to see that I am not alone and I now have a stronger idea about how to continue to manage our relationship.

My main worry is that I am now pregnant with DM's first grandchild. I worry how DM's behaviour will manifest towards my LO when it arrives. She is already going to miss the birth as she will be away.... She won't cut the holiday short as she is "already only having 5 weeks instead of 6 due to unofficially adopted Golden Child's (long story!!) wedding". My youngest sister aka Golden Child 2 doesn't see why I would be upset about this, despite many people telling her they too would be upset.

Now DM is kitting out her house ready for when my LO arrives so that she can have the baby "at least one weekend a month".
She is very disparaging of my relationship with DH, who is an amazing husband but doesn't have a very good job (DM's opinion, not mine) and although she is mostly polite to his face, will make sly digs and thinly veiled negative throwaway comments about him/us.... The latest being about our "lack of quality of life" due to us not having foreign holidays (she goes away 2/3 times per year).

I don't want to limit contact before she's done anything, but at the same time, I am worried about the potential effect of reducing contact in the event of her being the DGM from hell I imagine she will be.

Apologies for the long post!

Mrstickle, if I could change anything I would have not had my mother in my kids life from the start.

Mrstickle,

What FTSY wrote in her reply to you in its entirety. Honestly the best thing you can do for your as unborn child is to not allow your mother to have any contact whatsoever with him/her when he/she is born. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and your child will be used as narc supply by your
mother and scapegoated similar to how you yourself have been and still are.

She was not a good parent to you and narcissists are deplorably bad grandparent figures to their grandchildren. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparent figures. Do not subject your child at all to her, she will use your child to get back at you. It is also painful to watch a narcissist interact with a grandchild mainly because there is no interaction, its like watching a re-run of a tv show you have always hated. Exposing your child to such emotional manipulation is really bad, your job amongst many here is to protect your child from such malign influences. You must never leave your child alone with her for an instant if you want to consider yourself a responsible parent, the emotional damage to your child will happen right in front of your very eyes.

Re your comment:-

"I don't want to limit contact before she's done anything, but at the same time, I am worried about the potential effect of reducing contact in the event of her being the DGM from hell I imagine she will be".

You probably think that as well because you are frightened as to what her reaction will be. She is already trying to do stuff that you do not like or are concerned about.

Look at the current level of contact you have now and further reduce it. She is already starting on your child via you by stating that she will have your child for at least a weekend a month. You are going to have to be firm and say no repeatedly to her demands. Low contact often leads to no contact; ultimately you may well have to go no contact with your mother (which is something I would suggest you start laying the groundwork for now).

This link could also help you as well. Do take heed:-
www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissistic-grandmothers/

MrsTickle, I second all that FTSY and Atilla said, and would add that narcs don't always behave in exactly the same way with grandkids as they do with their kids, which can blindside you. For example, my mother (partly to gaslight me, I think, i.e. "look how lovely I am with your kids, you must be misremembering your shitty childhood" and also partly because she knew how fast her arse would hit the kerb if she was ever less than lovely to them) was ultra-nice to my kids when they were little, sickly sweet really. Lots of attention and presents and stuff. As it turns out, it was a prelude to picking favourites and trying to triangulate between me and DH on how to look after them - once that shit started I came on here, and went NC. I also am one of the people who wish I'd gone NC before the kids were born. I wish I'd gone NC as soon as my dad died, TBH.

FTSY your mum sounds just like mine - the large family, the crazy work ethic, the endless housework. She also sets great store by appearances and often talked with pride about how well put out I looked going to school. Never mind the fact that at 15 she was still not letting me buy the clothes I wanted - main thing was, I looked good from her point of view.

My mother has in the past said that people who had a rubbish childhood should just forget about it and get on with it, and she was full of delighted disdain for my uncle when he went for therapy. It's part of the thing of believing that they're 100% emotionally healthy and their only problems are caused by the people around them.

I struggle with my kids as well. I just can't relax around them. I do think though that we as children of abusive parents who are trying to recover, tend to have quite a negative view of our own parenting that is probably unjustified. IDK. I look forward to my kids getting older, as I'm better with older kids. I just try to have patience with them. I think we do try harder and like Atilla says, we have insight and empathy, so it's not all bad.