"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks greenleaf. My DH said last night my mum could fuck off....pretty strong words from him, but I think he's right. Just watching the BBC1 programme on abuse, pretty harrowing.

I re-read my 27 page book and had a revelation - in the whole bloody 27 pages she has not one positive comment about my personality and character, everything she's positive about is an acheivement or success rather than 'me'

She's able and does comment on DBs character.

How wierd that in the whole thing she cannot find one good thing to say about who I am, only things Iv done. I don't think I have ever actually heard a positive comment on my character from her, maybe I have but I cannot recall.

She doesn't value who I am does she? Only what I am able to do

I'm proud of my child for being caring, kind, helpful, funny, that sort of thing. I feel very proud when he learns something new or achieves but that's not who he is to me, it's what he does - that's more 'normal' for want of a better word isn't it?

MissPunny, your sister is right about the tears. You mum is putting them on to manipulate you. Your mother is a cold, heartless person who only cares about herself, not you. By turning on the waterworks, she manipulates you into giving in to her. She's not displaying any remorse for failing to protect you, and by the sounds of things she was also complicit in knowing about the CSA and did nothing to protect you or report the crime.

You mother is doing everything she can to stop you from reporting this as she known she will be implicated in allowing the crime of sexual abuse to take place. You need to resign yourself to the fact that it is very unlikely you will get the answers you need or the mother you should have had. TBH, your mum is a very poor excuse for a human being.

You need to go to the police and report this, and please, please go to them as they can help you through this. You may get some answers to some of your questions. You need to stop caring about your mum as she will never care about you. As sad and heartbreaking as it is, (and my thoughts on this come from the wanting to help you protect yourself rom further hurt), you need to leave her behind. When the abuse was happening, instead of protecting you from the CSA ,as any decent mother should, your mum turned a blind eye and let it happen. I have to admit, reading your post about the CSA and your mum failing in her duty of care, made me rather angry.

Your mum is not worth a 2nd thought and by reporting the abuse, you may induce a shitstorm, but that will die down and you can let the police deal with the matter. Your GF is a vile man and could well be a danger to other people. He needs to be locked up for the safety of others if nothing else. You need to stop giving a shit about him, or any other adult who failed to listen and protect you.

After my encounter last night with my brother, I'm feeling rather tearful and flattened. Deflated would be a better description. I feel guilty for not going round to my mum's, but if I don't go round, I'll get shit from my brothers. I can't win and it seems my only option is to move back to the town I was living in before we moved to Northern Ireland. That way, I'll be too far away to be able to help. It's not that I don't want to help, but the more I go round there, the more unwelcome and critically judged I feel.

I have had many friends comment on the way mum interacts with me. They've said I'm the same loving, caring person and don't change, but mum looks and seems like she can't wait to get me out the door. One commented on mum saying that I am an embarrassment to the family as I'm on benefits, no car, no nice house in a naice area. Basically everything my brothers have. I've applied for loads of jobs and have had only 3 replies back to say I've been unsuccessful. This is out of over 200 job applications.

Anyway, I'm off to bed now as I'm absolutely mentally shattered. Good night folks

Butterflies in spring, your mum is so manipulative!!! The book is insane, I thought my mums long text rants were nuts but that's something else. Yes it's normal to love your children for who they are not what they do, but these mothers don't know us so how can they?! It's easier to list what you can do as she doesn't have a clue who you are! Anything she does say about who you are will only be a negative reflection of who she really is.

Missypunny, I agree with everything upsidedowndog said, she is spot on. You're childhood was horrendous and your gf is a danger. But please don't feel responsible for it, do it when you are ready, you need 5o get angry and stop caring, they don't deserve it.

Upsidedowndog, ignore your brothers, I bet they aren't pulling their weight anyway!? If moving back is an option then do it you will feel a lot better no doubt, plus their might be more job opportunities! I'm glad your friends can see it, really helps when others understand.

I'm still feeling sad, I just want to feel better now, when does it get easier? Also I did my ACES score and it was a definite 6 with a few more questionable ones that could bring it to 9. My dad was arrested in our house whilst drunk and police barged in and ran through the house but it was also only for 1 night, still scary though. My mum and dad have never split up properly whilst I was under 18 but often said they were and we have run away in the middle of the night whilst he was being abusive, they often talked of divorce so it was confusing. Also I think my dad is depressed and my mother is definitely not wired up right but neither have been diagnosed, would these count? I suppose I'm over 4 for definite so it doesn't matter too much, only one that was a definite no was the sexual abuse. Xxx

Hi everyone. So many of you and so much I really get in my gut. So sorry for all of us.

Goodto better and helpmeplease - I've felt so much like that last month when my narc f had his enormous birthday party. I feared both the flying monkeys for not going and the feeling of everyone accepting I wasn't going and not caring. It made me wonder what my issue was. And then I realised I feel sad because I feel there's this lovely warm family gathering and I'm not included. But jn fact the is no lovely warm family gatherING but just my weird ass family bitch fest and I know why I'm not going to that. What I'm really sad about is that I dint have a loving family. Maybe that explains how you feel let down when people accept your nc? Your sad because it's clear what you never had. Not that you lost something.

Butterflies - your mum sounds truly epic narc. If trying for nc lands you jn this drama spiral can you try to dial down any drama. I read once that narcs feed on the drama so it can be effective not yo give them any and then move off to find a better drama supply. So basically just hmm your way through any contact. Dont tell her anything important to you. Only viable for limited amounts of contact or you'll go jn to permanent stasis but could work to just throw her off you. Simply don't give her reactions. I'd she starts deliberately triggering you for drama remember appointments and leave. Needa a clear head and an understanding that you cannot get anything out of talking with someone.

I'm struggling these days with the mystery of how my mother felt about me. She died over a decade ago. I always felt we were close and it was my F whose the narc. But I've been puzzling over the way I was sidelined as a child. It's very odd and makes me feel like a wrong thing. Sometimes I think my mother saw me as bring like her and she didn't like herself v much. So she treated me as a confidante but then also disparaged me. In neither did my treat me as her daughter whom due loved. Not being loved as a child has left so much damage. Some days I despair at it. I'm always having to deal with my poor self esteem and actively self nurture. I find it so easy to slip into treating myself conditionally

Butterflies - my parents the same. Everything conditional on achievements. It's like am sn accessory to show how good they are. 27 pages wow. My father once wrote me a 4 pager and I just remember cringing at the tone of it. Like the king praising a servant.

Lasttime, yeah I've been feeling like so what is it you want then? Maybe it is you with the problem as they clearly can't win etc. But it's definitely the feeling of sadness that I'm never going to get this loving supportive family that I need and want and the not bothering after I've gone no contact just confirms it. I realised she's only seen my kids once in nearly 6 months as well even though we've only been no contact 6 weeks, she really doesn't care.

Gosh those are confusing feelings, it's a hard being critical about someone who's passed, it feels so wrong. That doesn't sound like normal motherly love though. I felt my dad was the problem for a long time but now I realise I was being manipulated by my mother. Have you seen a counsellor? It might be worth going through these feelings properly

upsidedown thank you, it really does help to get a "normal" perspective. I get sucked back in with a few tears, excuses and religious comments. I'm a very strong person and I hate bullshit, which is why I'm so cross with myself for not realising my mother's tears all this time have been manipulation. I just thought she couldn't cope, was weak etc but a few things have come out recently and I see her so differently. My GM was a very manipulative lady and ever since I told my mother about the abuse she has blamed my GM saying she begged, insisted and cajoled to have us on sundays, she has never once taken responsibility.

What grates is that during the time of the abuse I was showing clear physical signs of distress - I was having panic attacks and had two that I recall at school, the teacher called my mum in. I had frequent headaches. I also had frequent and horrendous stomach aches that felt like my insides were being ripped out. With the panic attacks I had no clue what they were, she never told me, (I thought I might have asthma) and when I asked her what was wrong with me she hissed 'oh you're just being silly'. I remember it so clearly. With the stomach aches I would lie away all night in agony on my own. She didn't check on me, I took care of myself. I was 7 for goodness sake!! Wtf?! I've got my own kids now and I just can't fathom that coldness.

upside I can see why you would want to move. It's a catch 22 as if you don't go your brothers get at you, and if you do, your mum treats you badly. I think in your shoes I would put up a distance barrier. I'm sorry for all the pain you're in.

butterflies I'm still baffled by the book. Get rid of it, it's her mess, not yours, and you don't need to read that shit again. Your so-called mother is the narc to end all narcs.

to all, this family stuff is rubbish isn't it.

Punny, I have the support I need back in the town I used to live in. When we go back over there, we're staying put. I'll go to N.I for a holiday, but I won't be visiting my mum.

There are many things I remember from my childhood that I feel sad about. Once, when I was around 13yo and suffering from excruciatingly painful periods for a while, I asked her to come with me to see the GP. She refused saying that she had other things to do. I went by myself and was in tears. The GP was livid that mum wouldn't go with me. He visited the house and asked to speak to dad. When dad found out, he was furious and asked why mum hadn't gone with me when I NEEDED her. She told dad the same thing she told me. Ever since then, I have found it impossible to be open with mum and just engage in small talk, chatting about the weather etc. Now mum wonders why I'm not open with her and I can't be arsed to tell her why. Because she let me down many times when I needed her, rarely listened to me, dismissed my feelings and made me feel like I was an inconvenience.

I have to admit that I'm tempted to jus put out that I'm moving 350 miles away, just a few minutes before I go. Then again, I may not even say anything except to my close friends.

Am off to bed now, but will be back tomorrow at some point.

What do you do when one sibling claims they were abused by another sibling and that sibling claims the other sibling is lying.

I'm coming back to the thread, tomorrow or in a few days, just feeling rather shell shocked still and in need of lighter topics. I hope everyone's doing okay and thank you for all the advice yesterday

I feel terribly confused and upset.

I'm not sure ArundelTomb, who do you lean towards believing?

Can you ask the NSPCC for advice?

I lean heavily towards believing the sibling making the allegations is lying (she has also made a lot of stuff up about me that she persists in spouting, even after she's been appraised of the facts). But I feel unable to completely close the small element of doubt. Who would want to be the sort of person who disbelieves another's childhood abuse?

A very tiny chink of me wonders if it's possible it explains her very difficult early relationships? And her bullying/attempt to control me, her over invested-ness in my relationship with my first boyfriend, and the constant invasion of my privacy in our childhood?

I can't entirely decide if she's malicious or maladaptated to the point of derangement. I struggle to conjure any nice memories of her growing up. She never behaved like a sister towards me. I grew up baffled, never really knowing what it was about me that ignited her visceral hatred.

I first felt her hatred from age about 4 or 5.

Can anyone help me please?

My husband comes from a seriously weird family. I'm sure his mum is a narcissistic & his dad enables this. We are mostly nc with them because of the way they have been these last 20 years.
My husband seems to have escaped from most problems (his siblings not so lucky!) but my main causes for alarm are his lack of listening (he will have used this to escape his mums incessant talking about herself) and his inability to apologise even though it's blatantly his fault.
This is so annoying as he always turns it round to being my fault. For example he forgot to buy me a birthday card so instead he starts shouting & ends up swearing at me on my birthday! No apology whatsoever.
I can largely deal with this as I often preempt him blaming me & turn it into a joke sort of saying how it could be my fault. But sometimes I'm not in the mood.
He broke our Hoover the other day by chucking it across the room, and accidentally slammed it into my favourite piece of furniture denting it badly. He didn't realise he'd done that & when I pointed it out he didn't apologise & again he swore at me when I told him how upset I was. Should I be more understanding?
At the moment I just feel angry & hurt. Fortunately it doesn't happen that often. Tia.

Hi snowinsummer,

re your comment:-
"I can largely deal with this as I often preempt him blaming me & turn it into a joke sort of saying how it could be my fault"

Stop doing that as of right now. Its not helping you and its not working for you.

The only level of abuse acceptable within a relationship is NONE. His family are dysfunctional but this is no reason or excuse for his actions now and in past years towards you. It seems like you have become conditioned to his abuse within the home.

What is he like with other people; I daresay he does not act like this in front of work colleagues and any of your friends. What do your own family think of him?. Does he come across as plausible or all sweetness and light to those in the outside world?.

Did he blame you and your actions for throwing the hoover across the room?.
Why is his actions any of your doing or fault?. This is all of his doing. You are not responsible for him or any of his actions although you perhaps think that you are.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What is keeping you within this?.

He is doing this of his own volition. Has he ever broken his own things?. Come to think of it breaking your items, not apologising and swearing at you could in a wider context equals emotional abuse and domestic violence. Such behaviour from him is abusive and rooted in power and control. He is abdicating responsibility onto you for his behaviours. It also does not have to happen very often either; the cycle of abuse is a continuous one and your H may well do the nice/nasty cycle very well. His actions are all about power and control.

I also do not think you need to be more understanding either; have you ever asked him previously to leave the marital home?.

Good morning ladies, anyone for a ?

Arundel, I personally, would speak to both siblings, but I wouldn't say to either of them if I had spoken to the other first. It may be possible that the abused sibling (let's call the abused A and the 'abusive' sibling B) has told another trusted family member, possibly an uncle/aunt/grandparent/cousin etc, so it may be worthwhile finding out if they have and who it was they told. You should also look back and try to remember if anything B was acting strangely, like they were

I got speaking to dad last night and told him about the barmy I had, what had been said, how I was dismissed as being dramatic and that I was hoping to me back to the town we lived in 350 miles away. He said, and I quote:
"Dog, you need to go and be with the people who will support you through this. I'm worried about your DD being in a country like this that thinks nothing about taking away the right of a female to have a termination if she wanted it. I'm worried that if DGD (DD) wanted to get married to her female DP, that she can't because a bunch of religious bigots aren't prepared to afford her the right to have all the legalities we have with ordinary marriage. I really do not want you, DH, DD and DS to live in this backward country anymore, so once I pass to the other side, please go back to DH's hometown where you'll have the support network you need and people who respect you"

HelpMe, you don't need to worry about being critical about someone who has passed on. If they were nasty, then they deserve to have the truth told about them. I despise all this "If you have nothing nice to say about a dead person, don't say anything at all" crap. Does that mean that person A is not allowed to talk about how person B (deceased) treated them when person B was alive? Fuck that for a game of soldiers, I would talk about it anyway. The only respect I'd have for the person is to not talk about it at their funeral, but I wouldn't stop someone else talking about the person being a nasty piece of work.

Narcissistic mother, decided to limit my contact with her massively last year after she basically kicked me hugely when I was down after the breakdown of my marriage. I won't go into to it all now.
She sometimes calls me, I never answer.
But, even seeing she is calling leaves me cold and can change my mood so much.
Even if she doesn't say anything horrendously passive agressive. I still end up feeling very angry with her.
How do you guys deal with these feelings?
I really struggle at times with the whole you should be kind to your parents bit, but what if they have done nothing but bully and emotinally abuse you all your life?
The whole thing of if she can't control you she will control what others think of you, is so true as many family members don't bother with me now.

Vonnie

Keep on ignoring any call; do make full use of caller identity and consider also blocking her number from your landline (same with mobile).

Re your comment:-
I really struggle at times with the whole you should be kind to your parents bit, but what if they have done nothing but bully and emotinally abuse you all your life?

Then that so called "rule" does not apply, Being kind to parents only really applies if they have been kind to you in return.

Family members who do not reach out and seek your side of the story are not worth bothering about either. Such people tend to only act in their own self interest, they are not your friends here.

"HelpMe, you don't need to worry about being critical about someone who has passed on. If they were nasty, then they deserve to have the truth told about them. I despise all this "If you have nothing nice to say about a dead person, don't say anything at all" crap. Does that mean that person A is not allowed to talk about how person B (deceased) treated them when person B was alive? Fuck that for a game of soldiers, I would talk about it anyway. The only respect I'd have for the person is to not talk about it at their funeral, but I wouldn't stop someone else talking about the person being a nasty piece of work"

I fully agree with these comments that UpsidedownDog has made here. It's also the rewriting of history and relationships that grates as well.

Upsidedowndog and atilla I completely agree, it's just hard. Well harder than if they were living. My auntie was a flying monkey for my mother and made things worse said she lost a lot of respect for me despite never actually asking me about things and said some nasty things as well but now she has passed and I'm quite a cruel way I find it hard to say anything negative about her, I feel awful just posting this. It actually feels better to me to think good things about her and remember what she was like before my mother got into her head. But tbh I'm so stuck on wanting to be a good person and that's probably why, my mother definitely plays on my need to be a good person.

Anyway I wasn't saying she was wrong to think badly just saying I understand it feels wrong hard but that she still doesn't sound like a good mother xxx

*and in quite a cruel way

Arion What you're describing about your pissed dad and his letching is seriously disturbing and he was wrong and he let you down in a massive way.

Have you been able to talk about it with the therapist, or have you not got that far yet?

Thank you Attila. Have blocked her mobile now and don't have a landline so at least no surprise calls from that.