"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy memories are hard. I've been NC now for about a year and a half. She contacted me a few times in that period, including sending kids presents but always used it as a chance to berate me, guilt trip me and be generally unrepentant and horrible. I ignored the latest presents and e mails and now DS has had his 8th birthday and nothing. It hurts. Stupid as I wanted NC but still smarts. I find myself remembering happy times or looking at photos of the kids and thinking, how can she just dump us/them? Better this way, but still hard. Hard to get your head round.

They really are goodtobetter. I'm still struggling tbh. The bad far outweighs the good though and I need to remember that and not go back to be hurt over and over. She's saying that I didn't even try to tell her what was wrong now on fb but not even trying to contact me. I'm not friends with her btw it just got back to me via mutual people.

I know exactly what you mean by wanting no contact but it hurting when they don't bother, it's like confirmation that they really don't care and I suppose the child inside us holds on to the hope that things will change and they will love us xxx

Just popping in to say Hello to everyone and especially to those who've arrived since my last post. I've been out of the loop for a few weeks visiting much loved son.

Hi everyone. Hope you're all doing well if you've gone no contact, and for those who are intending to, please keep your chin up and plod on. It will get better.

Just had a run in with my brother. Fuck does my mum have him blinded. I've just gone through a whole host of facts about my childhood, how I was treated differently to my brothers (more harshly), how I was stupid for not attaining the grades mum thought I should get, right up to now when I told him that since I moved out of their house with my first OH at 19yo, I have never felt welcome. Even more so when I married DH who told B that he will not have anyone, not my siblings nor my parents treating his wife like shit, and that he would do everything in his power to make sure I was happy and safe. B didn't like that, and tried to make it out to be my fault that I wasn't going round, so I told him I am damned if I'm going to let anyone in the family judge me on what they haven't seen me do (phone mum, call round to find they weren't in etc).

I now realise how much emotional and mental damage mum has done to B. He just can't see that no-one is obliged to look after their parents. I told him that looking after an abusive parent is mentally draining and a choice, not an obligation for anyone. He disagreed saying that our parents brought us into the world and raised us, to which I replied:
"Parents should bring their children into the world because they love them, with the aim of having the DD/DS's leave the family home able to live their own lives. Not to bring them into the world with the obligation and burden of looking after their parents". He couldn't come back with anything to counter that. I told him that DH and I are getting things sorted so that we have the funds to pay for as much of our own care as possible, and that I'd rather go into a nursing home than allow DS/DD to look after us.

He kept going on about going round and doing stuff for them, so I countered that by telling him that I do go round and ask if there is anything to do like dishes, hovering, dusting, moving heavy stuff, sorting out anything, any shopping etc, but that mum keeps saying that

My sister has told everyone, including me (!), my first relationship was abusive (it wasn't. Nobody else thought it was abusive. And besides I know it wasn't abusive because I was there.). She's told people my boyfriend was a creep and was just using me. The relationship lasted 4 years and it was uplifting and good. I think it's her way of pretending that I'm only loveable by someone defective and creepy. She can't seem to stand for my life to run functionally. She also told me my former husband disputed paternity of our child (Err, no, didn't). I realise now that this is like it was in the good old days. Her telling my parents I'd done things that I simply had not. Her trying to secure maximum trouble for me for minor infractions, or sometimes complete fabrications by her.

How do people deal with this sort of thing? Do I challenge it? Or do I do as I'm inclined to do and just ignore it? It's hard to ignore because they are horrible rumours to spread.

I'm sorry I haven't RTFT. I NC a lot and I should have been over here a long time ago, it's been suggested to me on many of my threads under different NCs

I get hoovered by my mother all the time. I'm being hoovered now. I just read that term when looking up BPD which I'm almost certain she has and is where Iv learned some traits too. It suddenly made sense.

I tried to go NC. I ended up with a 27 page book. (That she'd written to me)

And it admits and takes responsibility for enough that I feel like I should re-open the lines of communication. I feel guilty going NC if she's trying so hard

But it's just another grand gesture and manipulation isn't it? It won't last?

She also missed the point spectacularly again, to fit her "script" for me. I declared I want space and cannot function anymore in the relationship I have with her. She decided that I had in fact coded to her that I don't believe she loves me enough and need a 27 page book to be able to appreciate just how wonderful she is.

I don't know how to verbalise that thing she does, where I say something and she decides and acts as though I have said something else, and she goes through with grand wonderful gestures nurturing some imaginary daughter that fits her script.

She's a fantastical caring mother, but not to the actual me. I'm left feeling violated by things that on the face of it appear kind or out of care. I cannot appreciate her 27 page pdf'd book. Or the times she bombards my husband with texts and calls about how he should behave. Or the times she inappropriately contacts people "out of concern" for me. Or the times she turns up "to help" uninvited and won't leave my property. Or the times she sends my child gifts when I am trying to NC. Or the times she talks to MY friends about MY life because she thought it would be easier for me if they knew to support me. Or the time she's calling grandparents association to look into taking me to court because she doesn't want my child to suffer not having a grandmother and want him to end up hating me.

I wish she did it intentionally because hating her would be so much easier than being stuck in the FOG and wondering if she'll top herself if I'm not in her life and keep her grandchild away also. Also wondering if it's true as she says that my grandma cancelled her 80th birthday plans because she's so heartbroken we're not getting along and didn't feel she could choose who attended, or if it's true that my grandparents are fretting over the idea that when they die I won't be at their funeral if she is, or vice versa. (I haven't said I wouldn't attend any party or any funeral, she's just run with it and emailing guilt trips I think, and I hope, but how can you be sure??)

Butterflies LOL at the book. Does it have chapters?

It does. It's even called by any other name or dressed up to be anything. It's called "a book about my daughter"

I should have trusted myself when I thought replying and answering the questions she asks (tell me what I did so I can apologise and understand being the biggie) was a bad idea

I have just been thrown under the bus for not appreciating it. I now have 3 emails listing how ungracious I am, how controlling I am for trying to dictate that she shouldn't send me 27 page books when I request space, how terrible I am for not dealing with my issues, how rediculous I am for thinking this that and the other, it also lets me know that I am not God.

I have never suggested I am God. Bemused by her urge to let me know should I be confused about that actually. I am but a bad and difficult daughter who she sadly has to suffer because she's too wonderful not to suffer having a bad and difficult daughter.

20 mins from me replying to getting 3 pings in my inbox with long attacks.

I don't want to dance this dance anymore.

By the morning it will have changed.

It will have moved from I hate you, to How could you do this to me,

Then will come the please don't leave me I can't bear it without you, I really miss you,

Then comes your wonderful, see how wonderful you are,

Then comes oh you didn't appreciate how wonderful I said you were,

Then how dare you not appreciate it, I hate you

And repeat. I want to stop dancing this dance. She's the fucking dyson of mothers. All shiny with promise and then your sucked in again.

I will only be able to hate her until she moves on to the next part, the how could you do this to me bit.

Not even called by any other name I mean

Is there anywhere you can get support to help yourself stop engaging in a toxic relationship?

I know NC is the right thing to do, but every email/text/flying monkey and I am trapped in the toxic storm of attempting to defend myself at allegations thrown out - Iv been accused of incest, child abuse, neglect, and so on.

I can't report harassment - because I've replied and responded to it

The only time this relationship functions is when I play the role of grateful she still bothers with me in spite of me being so "difficult". The moment I stand up to it and suggest I wasn't a difficult child just a child whose needs weren't being met, or I'm not a difficult daughter, the most awful accusations fly at me.

She's apparently called the NSPCC who want her (this is her words) to report me to social services because I'm not putting my child's needs before my own. I thought she meant because I'm "isolating him from her" (her words and they've been repeated by her parents now). I actually phoned the NSPCC myself at 4am to ask if they feel it's detrimental to do that, feeling so unsure of myself and questioning if I'm damaging him by cutting her off. I was ready to hear that they thought it was emotionally abusive to him to do so, and to give in.

But they didn't, they said it sounded like the best thing to do. And there would need to be other factors than cutting off a grandparent anyway to warrant them advising somebody ringing social services.

So what the hell has she come up with this time??

I need out, and fast. She destroys relationships around me - she did it with my father accusing him of incest with me. She does it with her parents - setting up situations that trigger me and then doing the "see, I told you she was difficult" game. She's done it with my husband accusing him of all sorts and abusing both me and my child. She's done it with friends of mine.

I'm an adult and I revert back to being/feeling like a child every time she's in contact and unable to simply walk away and be sure I wasn't selfish, or wrong for doing so.

I'm not even sure I know what healthy is, I only know that I need someone to help me recognise it and stick with it

I feel I belong in this thread. This is my story (well a bit of it!)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2607592-Sexual-abuse-may-trigger-read-with-care

Since posting that my mother has had NC with me, she evidently blames me (as has always been the case) and although she is speaking to other family members by text she hasn't texted me. I pretty much want to go NC. I'm so fed up with her treatment of me and angry with myself that I've let her manipulate me the last few years by crying every time the topic comes up and switching it to make it all about her. Angey, hurt, fed up....that's me today.

Butterflies your mother is a truly toxic, manipulative piece of work. I thought mine was a headwrecker, but yours is in a different league. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this .

You do know that all the arguing and "defending" yourself in the world will get you nowhere, don't you? The goalposts will just keep on moving, and you'll end up even more frustrated and miserable. Because that's the way she likes it.

What's great is it sounds like you recognise what's going on, and know it needs to change. You ask what "healthy" is - well, it's putting yourself and your needs first, I'd say. And in this case that probably means cutting this weirdo out of your life altogether, or at the very least refusing to engage any more in her games.

Has it helped to write all of this down here? I found journaling useful to put things in perspective, and gain a bit of distance from my mother's bizarro behaviour. You really start to see that it's her, not you.

Have you ever had counselling? It helps so much to have a kind stranger listen to what you've been through, and reassure you that it wasn't normal or right, and you were never "difficult" or weird. I must say though not all counsellors are created equal - I found two who were woefully ignorant about the sort of dynamic people like us grew up with. And they really do more harm than good, so if that's the route you go down, make sure you really do your homework, and find one who's totally in your corner.

Wishing you all the best, you deserve it.

Hi all, hoping it's ok to talk here? I've got a counselling session tomorrow (1st in 3 wks due to Easter holidays) and I feel like I'm sinking a bit mood-wise in anticipation.

This is only the 3rd session, and I've not talked about my parents yet, I know I need to raise it, but it's hard to go into the feelings surrounding them. When I've talked about childhood before it's been telling the story, not feeling the hurt.

It's lots of little things that added up to a lot of hurt. Mum was very passive-aggressive growing up, if I upset her she'd not talk to me other than the bare minimum (eat your breakfast, have you done your homework), no kisses, no cuddles. I'm a child of the 70's, only children were labelled spoilt, most kids I knew had siblings, I remember being told I was a spoilt only, there always seemed to be favourites, but I used to think how much worse it was to not have a sibling and still not be the favourite.

I remember at primary school having guitar lessons, mum picking me up and fussing over the guitar. I said she cared more about the guitar than me and she said of course, the guitar cost a lot of money. I think I was year 4 then. Dad found me crying myself to sleep that night and said she was just joking, but it never felt like a joke.

I remember her turning her face away when I tried to kiss her, I asked why once and she said I'd kissed her for too long when I was younger and wouldn't stop, and she couldn't breathe. It felt like a rejection every time though.

I remember her having a cold and being cross at me passing it to her. I hadn't even had a cold but she said I'd probably brought it home and not caught it myself. She did the odd days as supply teacher when I was in primary school and hated being ill as she said the children already had their normal teacher off and they needed the continuity. It always seemed like the kids she taught were so much better than me.

I can remember at secondary school bring home a report card of A's and B's for attainment, with C's and D's for effort. She said she'd rather they were the other way round, that I was trying hard rather than being bright but bone idle and lazy.

I went on an exchange year after A-levels, you needed references from school and parents, there were interviews. They sent mum's reference back and said she needed to re-word it because it was too critical and no one would want to host me. I spent 10 months over there, I came back on a weekday and was really surprised when mum had a day off school to come to the airport to meet me home, I thought she would just wait till she got in from school that day.

The worst was probably when I moved in with DP, (now DH). We moved in together in September and we wanted our first Christmas in our own place. My nan was still alive, Boxing Day was always hard for her as that was her Wedding anniversary. I said we'd come up for Boxing Day instead. Every phone call from then on was emotional blackmail, you don't believe, you could do Christmas any day, you could cook Christmas dinner the weekend before, the amount of times Dad has driven down to collect you on Christmas Eve (working patterns) and now you do this, it could be your nan's last Christmas and you've ruined it for everyone, I can't believe you're so selfish. I ended up with stomach pains that kept me awake at night, dr diagnosed colic and gave me medication. We went up for Boxing Day, afterwards she didn't contact me for nearly 3 months. Their Wedding anniversary is March 25th so I contacted them, no phone call from them, my birthday is 31st January, no call, no card. I did get a belated card and present when I saw them in March.

She's mellowed a lot now, or I just hold them at arms length. They don't really know anything important about me, as she'd either have judged or worried and been all upset through worry.

It seems such small things compared to what most of you have gone through, but it's still affecting me.

Through it all, I had Dad, I was always a daddy's girl. He always seemed to care and I can only remember him losing his temper on a couple of occasions. It was always mum who got mad, not Dad.

He drank too much though. We used to go to France in the camper van each year and they'd bring back boxes of wine and different spirits like Cointreau. I can remember an almighty row because mum had finished one bottle of something like Cointreau and had gone to get another bottle from under the stairs, every single bottle they owned had been drunk in secret and put back so mum didn't realise until she found they were all empty.

I can remember him being drunk at a party, and he tried to stick his tongue in my mouth, nothing more than that. I know it happened a second time, but I can't remember when, just that he was drunk. I can remember him telling me I 'was a bit of crumpet, like your mum' and hating it. I didn't want him to see me like that. Again, he was usually drunk when he made comments like that. All growing up he seemed to be on my side, but it then just seemed like a lie, that it was only because I looked like a younger version of mum.

I remember growing up without a lock on my door and getting undressed under my clothes. T-shirt off quick, then nightdress on, then bra off under my nightdress. I didn't want dad to walk in and see me, I didn't want to see something in his eyes that shouldn't be there.

And apologies to anyone in the golden child/scapegoat relationship, I don't mean to minimise how awful that must have been, just normal sibling rivalries.

Butterflies, I get where you're coming from. I've just had my brother over last night garbling on about how I don't appreciate how much mum and dad sacrificed for us etc, etc, and how I should be ashamed for not helping out more. I told him that when you become a parent, you sacrifice what you can to make sure your DC are fed, clothed, clean, happy and what not. As a parent, I am not prepared to put my DC under any obligation to look after me in my old age. A parent should save what they can to pay, as much as they can, for any care needed when they get older. An adult DC deciding to look after their parents is doing so out of choice.

I go round to my mum and dad's and I feel so unwelcome when only mum is there. The atmosphere and looks she gives me feel like she can't wait to get rid of me and the kids. When I go there, she never offers a cuppa or anything, but as soon as my brothers arrive, they get offered tea and cake/biscuits. DH, myself and the DC only get offered in front of everyone else so mum doesn't look bad.

I'm starting to sort out our shit so we can move 350 miles back to the area we were in before we moved to Northern Ireland.

Arion

You say the things your parents did seem small, but they're not. There must have been very many of them, and the intent behind the behaviour is far from a small thing. I can identify totally with that overriding feeling of just not being quite good enough, and not important enough, and being totally invisible as a person in your own right. It's crushing.

It's great you're trying counselling. Have you found someone you think you can work with well?

Best of luck with your next session

Upsidedown - I wouldn't bother arguing with thr brother. Practise saying things like:

"I'll give what you've just said some thought when I'm feeling a bit less stressed." or

"I value your point of view. I'll give what you've just said some thought." Etc

Butterflies - you sound thoroughly fed up. Try not to give her so much of yourself. You sound as though you need some space from her. Get a second cheap phone and tell her that's your new number. Can you ignore the emails? tell her you're cutting back your internet use because it eats too much of your time and breezily say so don't be offended at all if I don't reply.

Butterflies your mother sounds dreadful. The toxic manipulator to end all manipulators. I know if I asked for NC for a while I'd change my email address / get a second phone (or block her number).

The 27 page book is just...well....I'm actually lost for words.

Arion I think counselling will be very helpful for you. Its very painful but it needs to come out. I found journalling helped me when initially working through the CSA I suffered. I wouldn't tend to read them back as that still hurts now, but just writing was helpful. Your experiences aren't minir, they all add up to things being very shitty for you.

Thanks greenleaf. I'm kind of stuff at about age 8, it feels like it's all me that didn't match up to expectations. I can look at other people's experiences and see that the parents were at fault, but with me, I blame me. How awful must I have been for my own mother not to love me? It's good to be told that it's not just me. i just need to start believing it.

My therapist seems good. I've had therapy before but it didn't really sort anything. He's already said 'no narrating' and I realised that's what I've done in the past, just told the story rather than actually felt anything. It's scary bringing up that emotion that's been buried for so long. I don't know how long I've got either, it's a referral through the NHS so I think sessions might be limited to 6, I don't know that that will be enough. If he did private referrals I'd be quite happy to pay to have more (and we have medical insurance through DH's work), but I think he only works through the NHS.

To give a brief overview of my situation my childhood looked like this:

Very controlling, physically abusive father. We got hit a lot, for everything. We were part of a very insular religious group which I can only term as a 'cult' in this day and age.

Mother was emotionally absent, unavailable and cold. One of my older sisters did the majority of the work in raising me.

Mother's parents (maternal grandparents) were also part of the religious sect. GF very abusive towards grandmother and just about everybody. A nasty, horrible, verbally and physically abusive man. He would pinch us as kids, his nickname for me was 'Little Bitch' (which is going to out me to anyone who knows me in RL but I don't really care anymore), and said GF also sexually abused me. We were forced to go there after sunday mornings at 'church' for lunch. He would slag everybody at church off all the way home, he would have terrible road rage and scream and swear at other drivers (especially embarrassing when he once stopped the car and got out to shout at someone). We would be bullied, pinched and generally harrassed by him. After lunch he would do the dishes with my GM and they shout at her the whole time. We witnessed physical violence towards her and I remember often finding her tucked away somewhere in tears and trying to hide them from me. The things that went on in that home when we were there were never talked about. I begged my parents not to send me there anymore, I remember crying and begging, but my father shouted at me that I had to go as my mother needed a break from us kids.

Aged 17 I left home and went to live with the sister who raised me. My mother had very little to do with me during those years although my father did consistently make efforts.

I told them about the CSA a few years ago. I also confronted GF by letter. I didn't see GM again and missed saying goodbye to her on her deathbed because GF wouldn't leave her side or let her go to a hospice 'because he didn't know what she might say about him'.

Where I am at now is that my mother is the same emotionally unavailable person and has done everything in her power to stop me doing anything about the CSA. When my GM was alive I was told GF would kill her if I confronted him. I was warned of his violence, that he would be violent to me, that he would beat her etc. When I confronted via letter she was furious with me - never openly - those words were never said, but the day afterwards she came down looking immaculate and did her ice maiden routine. The 'north wind' as we jokingly call it (my sister and I) was blowing hard at us for several months afterwards.

My parents gave me the strong impression that once GM had died they would sever ties with GF who is obviously so vile to everyone. He is poison. He's like a dickensian villian. I can't begin to describe him really other than to call him evil.

They haven't severed ties and have continued playing nice. Another sister had had enough and basically confronted my parents constantly for about a week about it whilst staying with them. Her husband confronted GF and said they would no longer see him anymore because of the CSA which he denies.

What's biting my arse at the moment is the fact that I have been blinded by my mother's tears for years. She is a really cold person, but in this regard, any and every time it has ever come up she cries....so in the four years or so since I told her, she has just cried about it and no conversation or confrontation of her shit parenting has ever happened. She cries, I feel bad. The End. And it wasn't until my sister told me that this is total manipulation and what she had done to my sister that whole week that I realised it for the first time. And I'm SO ANGRY with myself.

I have always seen her as weak, which to a degree she is, or appears to be, but then I think back to growing up and all the cold, unfeeling things she would say to me and how nasty she could be and I realise she wasn't weak. She's adopted this 'sweet little lady' routine which is precisely what my GM did, all the while controlling others around her. Whenever as a teen I didn't want to visit my GPs she would say I should do it or my GM would think I didn't love her.

I could write pages here and I'm trying not to but I just need to vent as I am so angry right now.

Since my sister confronted her two weeks ago - which was actually nothing to do with me, I hadn't asked about it, it was just that my mother kept asking my sister to visit GF and she didn't want to (GM died 6 months ago), my mother has had nothing to do with me. She is giving me the cold shoulder. We don't talk often anyway, but there is always a deliberate chill at time like this.

Anyway, I just had to get this off my chest. I have finally realised what I total manipulator my mother is and I'm seething.

Thanks for validating me that she is actually a toxic manipulator. I needed that recognised. If she's shocking on the stately homes thread I suppose it's no wonder I'm left shell shocked and wondering if I'm mad. Iv told various people what she does before and it's like they don't quite believe me, does anyone feel that? Where you wonder if people think you must be making it up as saying it yourself you realise how rediculous it seems

I know what happens I think, I know what I should do - it's the actual doing it and escaping I find hard to follow through with. I need to work with a counsellor, I do have some access to therapy due to my OCD but should probably find one just to help me find freedom emotionally from her seperate to that.

Arion I can certainly relate to that feeling of failing to live up to expectations. Just the quiet disapproval, and indifference, and sly digs. On a rational level it's very clear that we weren't to blame, but on a deeper, emotional level it's hard to truly believe that. I hope you get there. It's great you've found a decent therapist - but yes, 6 sessions will likely be nowhere near enough.

MissPunny Words fail me. What a hideous experience. Have you ever spoken to the police about your grandfather? They now take historical child abuse very seriously indeed. Even if it never resulted in a prosecution, would it help to have it on record? And yes, your mother's tears are a load of manipulative crap. I'm so sorry.

Butterflies Oh yes, I recognise that feeling of not being believed, and the desperate contortions we go through to convince people that actually it was that bad. I'm very wary who I talk to about my toxic family now. Too many people making excuses for them, and minimising what happened .... It's really not helpful. .

And MissPunny I'd say angry is good. You have every right to be angry at the toxic shower of shits who made your childhood so miserable, and continue to hurt you now. I found a good strong dose of fuck 'em massively helpful in breaking the ties with my poisonous lot, and moving on to healthier things.