"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

To awful the affect they can have on us. Perhaps block the numbers so he doesn't have to see anything whilst he is healing. Glad he's enjoying the kids more now xxx

Yep the last few arguments I've noticed it's not heated discussion type argument but her trying to hit me from all sides with all different tactics to try and control me. So glad I see it now even if it still gets me upset confused and frustrated xxx

WizzyWig glad to hear your DH's relationship with your DC is so much better. Sometimes pushing to do what's best for your family can become a very uncomfortable experience for a person, but in the end, the result can be that the person is mentally and emotionally free from all or most of the mental constraints of a dysfunctional family.

HelpMe, my dad has been battling cancer for the last 20 years, so I wasn't surprised when I was told that it had spread to his kidneys and then his spine. He's still in good spirits, but he's very lethargic and is sleeping most of the time. It won't be long now, so I'm concentrating on getting dad to reminisce about his life at sea. I could write a screenplay of his life at sea, as he has told us his stories so many times I still love to hear them though. He's had a good life

Thanks for the hugs BTW, they're much appreciated. I'm off to bed now, but will be back tomorrow. Take care and hopefully you'll both have a decent night's sleep

HelpMe, sometimes you just need to roll your eyes and ask yourself "What does she want now?" In the same frame of mind you would have if a friend was pestering you by texting an annoying amount of times IYSWIM. You're allowed to NOT answer her. The more you answer, the more they will try to reel you in. Don't let it happen.

Anyway, I am going to bed now.............honestly

Glad he's had a good life. At least you have lovely memories to look back on

I was intending to not get sucked back in last time but I couldn't help it. I just thought perhaps I can explain and she will see how unreasonable this is and I've not done anything to make her kick off. But instead I got hurt angry and confused as she made out I was the problem again. Seriously disappointed in myself for that especially as it now means I'm no contact again as that makes everything awkward for me. She will go along to extended family events no problem but I won't as it's to hard for me as last time I did i ended up walking out crying as she was so cold. So I end up looking like the problem to everyone. Ugh xxx

Good morning ladies. How are you all today? I hope you're all working on getting mentally and emotionally better Anyway, I got some for you along with some and for a bit of comfort and for anyone who wants one

HelpMe, you need to try and see that you are not the problem, and from what you've said, it seems like you're having a hard time accepting that. It seems like something is stopping you from fully accepting that you aren't the problem. It may well be FOG. From how I'm seeing your posts, your mum's problem seems to be that she has a big issue with owning her part in her past abuse of you, and she either can't or won't face up to that. So in order to avoid having to accept and apologise for her actions, she twists it round and makes it seem to the outsiders that you are the problem.

From your posts, I can see that your childhood memories and feelings need untangling and worked on. You need to stop fearing your mum's reactions to being made to face her part in your past. You need to work on your feelings of obligation to your mum (you don't have an obligation to her). As I said, a decent parent will bring a child into the family because they love them unconditionally and want to do what is best for them. That's it. You need to work on the refusal to feel guilty for your mum's reactions over her part in your past. They are not your reactions, they are hers, and SHE chooses to act in that way, not you. So you have nothing to feel guilty about. If anything, your mum should be the one feeling guilty for abusing you and allowing abuse toward you. Any decent mother would put their life on the line to protect their DC. Your mum did the opposite and she probably feels ashamed and embarrassed, but doesn't want to face up to, own her actions and apologise for them. Doing that would expose her, which is something a narc would possibly fear the most (that they're not the person they've led people to believe they are). That façade cannot be shattered at any cost.

SO instead of worrying about whether your mum is willing or able to accept what she did, you should simply go NC and worry about your DC and your own life. No matter how hard you try to make her see what she did, you may well never get the apologies or answers you need. Sometimes some chapters in our lives need closing before they're finished IYSWIM.

Thanks again chiggers. I'm trying so hard to its not me but I really haven't handled things well, she brings out the angry child in me and I think if I had just handled things go better or if I had done this or hadn't done that. Like maybe she has a right to be angry at me. Maybe she is just as confused by my behaviour as I am hers?! I'm so up and down i feel like I'm going crazy.

It's just odd to me as she goes on about how hard it was for her being married to my dad and that she has had a hard life etc yet shuts me down if I say it was hard for me too, maybe she sees me with my happy marriage and thinks I should shut up as at least I have that and she didn't get that or whether she genuinely thinks I have no right to be affected by the domestic violence I grew up with.

I'm sure she feels ashamed and embarrassed but the crazy thing is I haven't bought it up in a long time, it's her that keeps bringing it up in order to tell me that it's all lies or I'm over reacting and that I've ruined her happy memories of her favourite time of life. I really have just wanted to move on for a long time she keeps dragging me backwards then tells me I'm. Living in the past. Confused. I guess she won't drop it until I admit I'm crazy it was all lies and tell her she was wonderful.

I have gone no contact and the crazy things is that it hurts she hasn't even tried to sort things, nothing for easter for the kids etc. My husband reminds me that it's easier this way and if she was to do it that it would only be to say look how lovely I am i tried and she ignored me but I can't help but feel hurt about how little she cares. I'm. Sure it'll get easier with time xxx

Can I ask if many of you feel that ur parents naracistic behaviour has caused your anxiety or mental health issues ?

Trying to make sense of it all - she crys when doesn't get her on way then the emotional black mail - Iv become
Very hardened to it and wonder am I cold x

Good evening ladies, hope you're all plodding on as usual while figuring out what your next moves are WRT toxic relatives. Hopefully you have that all worked out with LC or NC. Keep your chins up, it'll all come good eventually

No Wine, you haven't become cold. You've chosen to protect yourself from your mum's behaviour. You know that not protecting yourself mentally will eventually result in ill MH for you, and the far-reaching effects for your family.

Your mum sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum when she doesn't get her way. May be an idea to treat her like one. When she starts on the emotional blackmail, just roll your eyes and sigh in a bored "Not this again" kind of way. It should make her realise that it's not working on you. She may ramp it up, but stick at it and she may stop eventually. Limiting contact with her can do wonders for keeping your MH in better shape than regular contact with a toxic relative.

The narc can trigger anxiety, but it isn't necessarily a cause. The cause of the anxiety could possibly be the likelihood that abusive behaviour itself will occur or just the thought of it happening. That's when our mental and emotional avoidance mechanism kicks in and we can find ourselves scrambling for a last minute excuse to not contact or visit the person.

HelpMe going NC will hurt. Every time. It hurts because we so desperately keep wanting one last morsel of contact to see if there's any positive change in the narc, and although we know in our own hearts that it's very unlikely that'll happen, we still cling to the tiniest shred of hope. We hope they'll change to be the parent we should have had, not the one we got. It hurts because in reality, we know that the likelihood of that change happening is just an exercise in futility and wasting time.

Sometimes we have to close that chapter before we're ready and we need to do it or we won't heal properly IYSWIM.

I'm absolutely shattered, so I'm off to bed now for a decent night's sleep........hopefully It may not happen, but wishful thinking and all that

Night good ladies. Take care of yourselves and I'll be back to chat tomorrow morning

Hello. I don't post very often, but I do lurk. Last time I posted was at Xmas after a dreadful visit from the parents. I'd kind of just let their behaviour go, but I've just had another blow from them.

I'm a single mum, my ex is a deeply unpleasant piece of work. Recently my child has been incredibly upset following an incident at her Dads house. I was also very concerned about it and reported it to the school (it's been flagged by them and a child protection file has been created). I have contacted various agencies etc for best way to deal with this emotional abuse for my daughter and I am following their plans.

It's been very stressful.

My 1st mistake was to tell my mum. She's now calling me practically every day telling me that I have a duty to protect my DD.

I'm now in the position of scrabbling around for child care next week. My mum knows this, I've suggested she could help, but no it's too difficult to visit (she's 60, drives and doesn't work).

Anyway she called again this morning and has requested photos of DD eating the Easter egg that I bought for her on their behalf. Then she mentions that my niece Is unwell so she is providing childcare all week.

It's not just me is it?

No, it's not you longdays. It's definitely not you. She's rubbing your nose in it about the childcare - I've seen a number of crazy abusive people in my life do this at times. If you look closely you can catch them watching for your reaction. And regarding the situation with your daughter and your ex, I would guess she's just loving the drama and having someone around she can point to who's definitely behaving worse than her.

she called again this morning and has requested photos of DD eating the Easter egg that I bought for her on their behalf

That's awesome. 100% of the return for 0% of the effort. Reminds me of a disagreement over wedding photos between my narcissist mother and FIL. DH and I were like "wait, was it not us who just got married?"... I often think that I could send my mother a bunch of photos of the kids every 3 months and she'd have all the advantages of a relationship with them with none of the drawbacks of having to actually meet them in the flesh (and us of course - now that we've married, had children, and between us collected as many degrees as we're ever likely to get there are very few opportunities to show us off any more so she can't be bothered with us).

*

Anyway I hope you all had a passable Easter. We had the inlaws here [sigh]. We've been invited to a landmark celebration of theirs, and DH has been asked to "reconcile" with his brother, who went NC with us a few years ago, not sure why. We were both pretty happy to leave him to it and I'm sure he was as well. Their family dynamic wasn't the healthiest, and while I don't think DH did anything wrong, I totally respect the guy's decision to go NC and sort his head out. But FIL of course wants everyone sitting side by side grinning like puppets. Oh well.

I'm really sorry if I've missed anyone out, the thread seemed to have had a bit of a flurry over the weekend and I struggled to keep up. I also feel like I'm rubbish at giving advice, so I am kind of scared about what I may have replied being the right thing. I know where this comes from, it's just not easy to break the am I doing things right thoughts.

I've had no direct contact with my Mother since the beginning of last week, but she's contacted my DH. He'd rather she didn't but he also wants to not burn bridges at this point. I'd rather she didn't either, but it's small steps I think. My DH is being amazing about all of this, I think he saw a lot of the behaviours before I realised them and was happy to give her the benefit of the doubt for a while, but he's pretty mad about a lot of it too. She's under the belief that my DH is being forced in to this by me and my 'condition' She's using emotional blackmail, and also is not in the slightest bit listening to what I have said and so far it's coming back to her. It's like it always has been, when I discussed my mental health diagnosis I got her things, when I asked for something I got made to feel like I was the bad person for asking something really very innocuous and then I was told I was in the wrong for whatever. I can't remember the last big family event I have gone to with her where I haven't in her eyes done something wrong, i.e. something that doesn't mean she can show herself off to people. She wants to be the centre of attention. Her vanity and selfishness have really been something I've tried to ignore, but as she isn't respecting what I am saying at the moment it's making the NC a bit easier and confirming my beliefs that I am doing what I need to do. The other day my DH got a message which once again questioned my parenting abilities, basically because I'm not doing what she thinks I should be doing, it's all just confirmation of what I had suspected.

helpme thank you again. If the stuff we’ve had from her in the past 2 weeks has anything to go by your prediction that she will not change has been proven right away. I feel a lot better without the contact directly, my husband still has messages from her which both of us would rather not happen, and she’s just confirmed the reasons why I need this break in the things she has said.

Millstream Yes, I agree with others in what they have said. It was abuse, and it definitely could have had an effect on you and how you were brought up. I suffer from a personality disorder which lead to self harm and depression, all sorts, I still get this now, but I’m only now getting the help I need to work through and learn the coping mechanisms and things that I wasn’t taught as I was growing up.

greenleaf while I’m only in early days of NC after realisation of what I had been through and the toxic nature I absolutely feel liberated to know what it all is.

ncpg I too have an all smiling and ‘wonderful’ mother in everyone’s eyes, except to the people who are close to me and can see through the fakeness and shallowness of her. I think the realisation of having children and not wanting them to have a similar upbringing can be tough at times because I think it makes us realise what we actually went through. I know I do not want my children to ever feel the way I have been made to feel. I can imagine it must be very difficult right now for you as you feel you need to take that break but are also caught up in it because of your dad.

chiggers you have said a lot that rings true to me and my mother. all smiles on the outside but not a nice person underneath. She does a lot for her benefit and to better her image as opposed to doing for others.

wine you aren’t cold, you are protecting yourself. My upbringing has had a massive effect on my mental health, some of which is being thrown back in my face at the moment with ‘my condition’ being used as a form of punctuation for why she believes I’m wrong to want a break.

longdays It’s definitely not you. as toomuch said it’s all about the drama, my Mother is a big drama lover and makes big points of bringing up how awful x y or z is or how hard she is having it, or how so and so got through stuff despite whatever. It’s tough.

What a lovely safe haven this place is. Nobody in RL really gets what I'm dealing with - even my fabulous DH, and the couple of counsellors I've seen. You lot do though. to all of you.

longdays so sorry about your mother's reaction to what happened to your DD. I agree it's all about the drama, but I'm wondering if, beyond that, you feel too that your mother is actually getting a kick out of your distress? In fact, do the rest of you feel that too?

I certainly think there's big old helping of malice in my mother's dealings with me.

My eureka moment came a few years ago when I had treatment for breast cancer. My mother - of course - couldn't get enough of the drama. But then things started to get even weirder. Just a week after my surgery my parents had arranged to come up to see me and DH, to help at home while I recovered. They kept us permanently on tenterhooks - scheduling and cancelling trips - changing their plans at the last minute. We didn't know whether we were coming or going. We were permanently off-balance.

When they finally did pitch up, my mother picked the most almighty fight with me and DH - entirely unprovoked - to this day I have no idea what triggered it. They both stormed off - next day I got a text saying they thought it best we cut contact for the foreseeable future. I was totally bewildered.

My mother and I exchanged emails over the days that followed. Each of hers more head-wrecking than the last - self-pitying, hurtful, gaslighting crap. I found the emails again recently, and could weep when I see the contortions I tied myself in trying to reason with her, and unpick what had happened. I now know that was her plan all along. She just loved the idea I was upset and confused - I had a hideous illness - talk about kicking me when I was down. I remember the look on her face when she launched into her tirade - it reminded me of something from my childhood - it was gleeful. She was enjoying it.

Does this strike a chord with anyone? I remember a pp here had a similar story about her mother's behaviour after her (the pp's) husband died suddenly.

No wonder no-one in RL really gets what we put up with. It's so beyond the norm of good family relationships that it's unfathomable.

Thanks for reading. to all of us.

Thanks for the replies. green I think you're right. She probably is getting some enjoyment out of the situation. She loved it when I was in the middle of my divorce. It's such a head wreck.

I want to go no contact, but she just ramps up the phone calls. Then gets my sisters (flying monkeys) in on the act and as a last resort my dad then ends up texting me. Aargh,

I'm going to have a good trawl through this page again, there are so many dysfunctional parents out there.

Good evening ladies. How is everyone here? I hope you're all doing as good as possible for your situations.

Green, your mum is keeping you, as you put it, on tenterhooks and part of a narc's plan is to keep their scapegoats in a state of limbo. My mum did similar, but when I realised what she was doing, I played her at her own game, went along with her plan (pretending to be anxious, uncertain etc), but my plan was to make HER think she had control. When she bitched at me about something minor (can't remember what it was as it was pretty insignificant), I told her that I would let her turn up when she wanted and if I was out and about, she could ring me to let me know if she was coming round. She then realised that I wouldn't be putting my life on hold for her, and that I certainly wouldn't be dropping everything to pander to her whims.

She did ring me one ay when I was about to go in to see my GP, so I told her politely that she'd have to wait until I get home from my appointment. Well, that set the fireworks off and she exploded telling me I didn't care about her (I do, just not her fecking behaviour) and that I was a useless DD (I offer to pick up some stuff for her when I'm shopping, but she refuses saying she's alright), as well as saying that she wished I'd never been born (I'm well used to that now, so just roll my eyes at her and think "Yeah, and...........your point is???).

She then tells everyone that I went shopping and never offered to pick anything up for her (totally false as I ask every time I go shopping), that I don't care about her and more. It's like dealing with a stroppy, lying teenager, then it turns into dealing with a toddler when she has a tantrum over stupid things.

Sometimes, I wonder if narcs are able to express themselves effectively and actually understand the effects their actions have on their family, friends and the wider community.

I meant to say that it seems to me that narcs may be emotionally stunted IYSWIM. By that I mean that they seem to have extreme mood swings from being incredibly nice (in order to reel the scapegoat back into their role as whipping boy) to incredibly nasty and vicious.

I don't know. It's just something I think about, but can never find an answer to. Or maybe the answer is clear and I'm just not seeing it.

Hello lovely ladies (and gents),
Thank you to everyone on this thread for opening up like this, I am a long term lurker (among many others I suspect) and it's amazing to find this community of others going through similar issues. I feel very very sorry for anyone being in a situation to deal with toxic parents, and I feel even more sad for the child versions of us.
Chiggers, I have been wondering too about whether these parents have any emotional understanding of what is going on. Do they truly not see the hurt they are causing and accept some of the blame, even if they would not admit it out loud? When they say hurtful things, do they really believe them? Or is it some sort of mental condition that makes them blind to feeling bad?
The answer is important to me. I would consider going NC with my narcissistic mother if I knew for sure she was truly evil and meaning everything she says (that my choice of DH is rubbish, that I don't live my life the right way, blabla different variations of what an idiot I am, of course never explicitly phrased so explicitly). But if this was due to a real mental disorder, where she is in some sort of zombie auto pilot driven by ghosts of her own past and truly believes she has never done something wrong, would it not be really cruel to just walk away? Could I live with her thinking I abandoned her "for no good reason"?
Or is the answer irrelevant, whether they understand the emotional hurt they cause or not it does not matter, what is important is that it makes us feel rubbish and the only priority is to put a stop to it.
I don't know, just because my emotions were not important back then does not mean I can dismiss hers now, I want to be the better person here. Or maybe I am completely under the spell of the fog here. Confusing..
greenleaf sorry about the cancer, not fair you had to deal with the family drama on top of it :(

Good morning ladies. Anyone for a

MissZ, I think some narcs are incredibly intelligent, know exactly what they are doing and use their intelligence to manipulate people to get what they want. There are some who could well be mistaken for narcs when in fact they could be clouded by FOG from their own upbringing IYSWIM. It can be hard distinguishing a mislabelled, but genuine person from a true narcissist, IYSWIM. At least to the untrained eye. To really see a narc, you need to be outside the situation to observe the behaviour of everyone in that situation. That is the proverbial 'taking a step back' and seeing the bigger picture. This is also something that many people within their situation, like ourselves, don't necessarily see because we're in the thick of it.

That's why I generally say that people on the outside can see things that us folk on the inside may not see. This is also because the outsiders are generally neutral and the perceptions of those people on the inside (family, other relatives etc) can be skewed toward one side or the other BY one side (usually the narc having been very clever in manipulation). One of the best ways to get family, friends and relatives to see how the narc acts is to arrange to meet up with the narc and the relative(s) and ask the relative(s) to just watch how the narc acts around you. Ask them to do it a few times so they see more detail about your situation. It also helps them see the bigger picture and then they generally ask you what it was all about, so you tell them the truth. Meeting up with the relative first and asking them to stay at an audible distance to hear you talking to the narc, will allow them to see the narc for who they really are. The relative will eventually see that everything you are talking about with the narc ties in with what you've been saying to the relative, and proves that you are telling the truth about the narc.

Telling the truth about a narcissist is not enough. Sometimes you have to engineer meet-ups so that others can see for themselves what the narc is really like. It may make them realise that they have been manipulated by the narcissist, BUT, there will be those who would rather stick by the narc through loyalty to them or because they realise that they have been fooled and don't want to admit it (pride).

Long, narcs love and thrive on drama, and as master manipulators, they will generally use any situation or set of circumstances to make things about them. They are incredibly weak, insecure, pride-ridden people. By this I mean that they have a need for constant and OTT appraisal, but are too pride-ridden to admit that they are weak people. I think it's possible that they don't know, and understand, how to socialise, so they do this by engaging in good causes (volunteering/working with vulnerable people etc) and manipulating people to think they are the bees knees.

I don't know if you have thought about this, but I have never come across a narc that has a degree in psychology or has volunteered/worked in a psychology-based position such as Samaritans etc. Most narcs I know have generally been in positions such as care assistants or other jobs that require them to LOOK like they actually care. I have also noticed that, due to their emotionally and mentally weakened state, they tend to very subtly bully and manipulate certain people (the scapegoats) to feel better about themselves. After all, what better way to feel good about yourself than by having an emotional and mental punchbag that keeps coming back, as and when required.

Sometimes going LC for a long while (make sure you're always busy, except when you feel up to dealing with the narc relative/friend) can give you the space needed to strengthen your emotional and mental resilience, which in turn allows you to feel more able to deal with them. Always use any spare time to do just that, even if it's just a few seconds. It only takes a few seconds to tell yourself that you ARE a strong person, and you CAN get through this

Green I think they enjoy seeing you weak as they then have the chance to reel you back in as if you were a child again. Bastards.

Chiggers I've read somewhere that people with NPD are likely to have had abuse or neglect at the age of about 18m-2y and it results in them basically not progressing past that age emotionally. I can see that - kids at that age are small, merciless dictators, no empathy at all. Of course with love, a kid learns that they can still exist and be OK even if they have to wait their turn to get on the swings... that's what narcs miss, I think. They think that if they are not the winner of everything, they disappear.
In terms of the hoovering (being just nice enough to draw you back in), I think it's like this: in their toddler mind, they are the centre of the universe and so everyone should love them and do things for them and expect nothing in return. Except their life experience tells them it's not like that, so, afraid of being left all on their own and being totally unlovable and cast out, they demand constant demonstrations of love. So if you put in the smallest boundary ("I can't get your shopping, I need to go to the GP") they go absolutely mental. My own mother's thing was to be like, "fine, I will never ask you for anything again ever, we are no longer mother and daughter, I must be some sort of monster for asking you to do this tiny thing for me". But actually, they need us, because who the hell else is going to put up with this shit? So they will reluctantly embrace reality and be charming for precisely the amount of time it takes to reel you back in, and then the world can return to its rightful state with them on top and you kowtowing. Usually with an extra serving of nasty, to punish you for leaving the fold and making them be nice when in their heads they were the wounded party. You probably know all this though.

MissZ I think there's two questions you have to think about regarding your mother and contact. One is, OK, will she suffer if you go NC? And the other is, does that suffering justify you continuing to subject yourself to her abuse?

On the first one, I've asked myself that a million times. I put myself in her place, I'd be gutted to lose contact with my kids. But she's never liked me. I started grey-rocking her when I was still living at home, so I'm a shit source of narcissistic supply, and so she has no fun being around me. I'm a good source of bragging material as I was reasonably successful in my career and my kids are quite cute, they're bilingual, we live in a big house abroad etc etc. But as to actually hanging out with us - she's got about 2 hours of civil chat in her, then after that it's all bad behaviour and attempts to set me against DH and the girls against each other. And I think that that is the need she has - to be the winner of this shit game, to have the rest of us fighting and sad and to feel superior to us - well, she might be sad if she doesn't have that need met but I'm not throwing myself, my DH or my kids under a bus to feed that unhealthy need. It would be different if she was lonely, bereaved - but those are feelings you have when you lose someone you love, and she never loved us. (Love is an act coming from a feeling. Caring for your people goes hand in hand with feeling close to them. You can't love someone and abuse them at the same time).
We went NC in September and when I imagine her I see her angry and scheming. She'll be waiting for us to have trouble and need her help, for my marriage to break down or my DH to lose his job or something, so she can sweep in pretending to help, and then she'll have her revenge. I believe she dreams of revenge. "God's slow, but he's sure", she used to say, and "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord" - and since she thinks and thought that god is on her side, what that means is that she will wait till the day she dies to find a way to get her revenge on me. Well good luck you old witch because you don't know where we fucking live.

The second question is easier. Regardless of what your mother feels, should you continue to suffer the abuse in order to make her feel better? No! No no no! Nobody deserves to be abused. Just because fate handed you the losing lottery ticket of a rubbish childhood and a narcissistic mother, doesn't mean you have to be responsible for her.

All the stuff I've ever read suggests that narcs don't ever get better - because they don't want to. They have a nice life, being perfect, blaming everyone around them for every single bad feeling they ever have. Why would they ever give that up? So all you can do to make them feel nice is sacrifice yourself to be their narcissistic supply. Well, bugger that. You're worth more than that.

Also yes chiggers I will have one of those and is there an emoticon for [paracetamol] as the bloody weans have given me the lurgy, again. Is it nearly summer yet?

Hi all, just thought I'd join in as I'm fairly sure my DM is a narcissist and my DF is very much her enabler.

My story is that I'm now 47 (yikes!) and it took until about 6/7 years ago to realise what was going on.

In my case my childhood was largely fine. I was always aware that DM had bad moods and got annoyed more than my DF so was always a little more careful/well behaved with her. But she was warm and affectionate and I remember many hugs. I do remember a priest for some reasons visiting our school when I was about 8 or 9 I think and having a chat with each child and him asking me was I closer to my mam or dad and I said my dad and that was probably the first time I really acknowledged that I liked him better. He is a very gentle man and I always felt sorry when DM was 'giving out' to him, she treated him like the village idiot and as a child I used to try and distract her when she was having a go at him. I suppose I always just thought she was a bit of a nag (horrible word I know!). In later years I found out that he would throw me under a bus if it gave him a break from her (he once told her something I had said to him about 'the world doesn't revolve around mother', obviously she went nuts. I never confided in him again.

As I grew up things got more difficult. There were regular icy silences (she specialises in the silent treatment. Any little thing could lead to it, often I wouldn't know what I had done. There was be silence for a couple of days (she would mutter the odd few words like 'your dinner's ready' that sort of thing but wouldn't speak, would ignore me if I said 'goodbye' leaving the house etc which I found really upsetting.

After a couple of days she would eventually get me alone and say "do you want to know why I'm upset/annoyed with you?" and I would say 'yes' and she would proceed to tell me how I had upset her (it might be something like I rolled my eyes when she asked me to do something or sat on the bed after she had made it) I was a good quiet kid, always nervous of confrontation and really didn't do bad things. She never kept these 'talks' to just the issue that had arisen, she would then go over my whole history of upsetting/annoying her going back years. Sometimes I tried to defend myself but she would say "who do you think you're talking to" or if I tried to walk away it was "don't you dare walk away from me"). Once she was finished she expected me to just get over it eg when going to bed I had to give her and DF a kiss goodnight. After these talks I wouldn't feel like it but if I tried to go to bed without kissing her it would start off another tirade.

She is very much of the mindset that now I am grown up it is up to me to keep in contact with her and DF. She would never phone me ("we're the parents, we don't have to") but would sulk if I didn't phone at least 3 times a week. She liked to visit without phoning first, I stuck this out for years but one evening myself and DH were planning on going out to dinner (on a sunday) when they arrived - when I told her that she sulked and left. She seethed about this for years and later said to me that I "got up in her face" and told her she couldn't stay (complete BS).

Every now and again she would text "ring me" and I would of course call immediately. She would then say she needed to see me but to leave DH at home. Many times I did this - it was always to have a 'chat' about how I had upset her. Once time she did this in March and it was to rant that while I had spent Xmas day with her and DF, I then hadn't seen them for a little over a week, until after New Year. I reminded her that both DH and I had been very sick with flu and hadn't left the house for a week but that she could have called to me. Her response (completely illogical) was that she wouldn't dream of visiting when we weren't well!

Other things - one Mother's day my sis (golden child) and I decided that rather than book a restaurant for dinner we would do a really special one in DS's house - flowers, champagne, DM's favourite foods (she's a v fussy eater) etc. She was ok throughout the meal but was v quiet in the day's afterwards. Eventually DF told us that she was very disappointed that we didn't bring her out as all her sisters had been brought out by their adult children and she had to admit she was only given dinner at home.

The last of these 'chat's that we had was the worst. For the first time DF joined in (usually he made sure not to be there or just sat silently, occasionally agreeing with her). This time he had a full list of my 'faults' ready - it was like he had been cataloguing them for years. Everything he could think of - sometimes I sat on the sofa beside DM and didn't chat enough (say, if we were watching something on TV), sometimes I would text her, she would respond, then I would text back (when I should have phoned rather than continuing to text), how when she had asked me to do something for her one time, I had paused before saying 'yes' (I had to consider another arrangement I had made), how after our last 'chat' I had waited 5 days before phoning her again (it always took me a while to feel ok after she had spent a couple of hours telling me how I upset her). He pointed out how many times I had visited their house in the last 6 months and how many times they had visited mine (not enough obviously). he reminded me that they had given me some money as a wedding gift (many years previously) - all their gifts had strings attached. it went on for several hours. He admitted later that they had ganged up on me by ensuring that DH wasn't present. After that meeting I told them I would never engage with them in such a manner in future.

When I was about 40 I went to a counsellor for a while - for the first time the word 'controlling' was mentioned. I started doing some research and discovered the word 'narcissist' - like many of you it was completely eye opening.

I sobbed throughout the first 2 sessions, realising that I am actually scared of her. Years of walking on eggshells, trying not to annoy her, watching what I say (she doesn't like to be disagreed with). I felt like I folded up inside when I was near her, I couldn't be myself at all and sometimes I actually shivered a little if she was physically close to me.

For the last 5 years I have been very LC. I wrote them a letter telling them what I was doing and why and while it was quite traumatic it was, and still is, the best thing I could have done for me. I didn't have any contact for 5 months and when I did eventually phone DM, predictably, said I had destroyed her and the family, that she could no longer sleep, that she was ill because of me. She said things were not as bad as I said, that I was always difficult to talk to, that I used big words to confuse her (!), that I was too sensitive for my own good. She didn't remember much of what I spoke about, insisted DF would never have said the things we both heard him say, and then said she had her own problems throughout her life and things were not easy for her. She begged and pleaded for me to visit them and it was incredibly difficult but I said that in future I would see them away from both our homes and that my DH would always be present.

I'm mostly at peace with my decision although guilt rears its head regularly enough as they are both in their 70's. My sis retains a good relationship with them and stunned me a couple of years ago by virtually turning into DM and telling me I had completely over-reacted and was deliberately hurting them and that I had exaggerated and blown everything out of proportion. She suffered to a degree from them too but was now even more of a golden child than ever (they spend a lot of money on her in the last few years) so while I have a relationship with her it has been damaged because she tried to completely invalidate me.

Anyway, I am seeing them for dinner on Sunday (which always stirs things up a bit for me) but they are always pleasant and polite as we are in public and DH is there) - that will be it for another 8 weeks or so and that suits me just fine.

Thanks for reading if you got through all of that!

memyself welcome! Your mother sounds like my mother. My god, the utter trumped up pettiness of her "complaints" about you is so ridiculous and also eerily familiar. I tied myself in knots for years trying to perfect my behaviour and avoid censure but they have these bad feelings, they're going to act them out somehow, and if you won't oblige by doing something bad then by god they will find something to blame you for.

I think there's something magic about 40, there are tons of people on this thread and in RL that I've heard of who saw the light age 40. I am 40 this year .

I liked what greenleaf said about distancing yourself by becoming a disinterested observer of the behaviour. It works for the length of a meal anyway!

Thanks for the welcome toomuchtooold! It's good to have found this forum, so many stories sound so horribly familiar.

You will see that I changed my username - the one I chose initially sounded horribly narcissistic and I was embarrassed when I saw it!

They do say life begins at 40 - in many ways it did for me and I'm glad that's the same for you too.

I remember reading somewhere that it helped to visualise a glass wall between yourself and the DM while in her company and this helps me feel detached from her although even after all this time my stomach still sinks when I see her...

memyself Your mother sounds grim, and horribly familiar to anyone on this thread. Well done for being LC but sounds like you need to disengage from her still further - what a load of petty rubbish, messing with your mind. Think what's best for YOU and act on it - you owe her nothing. (This is a revolutionary concept for people who grew up in families like ours.)

toomuch the observer mode is wonderful I find, because our parents (mother especially in my case) are fascinating monsters. In fact at Christmas, visiting them, hubby and I loaded pictures of Jane Goodall with clipboard, observing chimps in the rainforest, onto our iPads, and in moments of frustration and stress, shared them with each other to get back on track

Hope you all have a great weekend.