"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My sentence should say:-

This also includes you NOT reading any of her communiques/demands sent to you.

Ashes I can’t imagine how hard that must all have been I'm sorry I can't advise but I do send heaps of support.

Lasttimeround the thing I'm finding incredibly hard is that because I foolishly moved to be near my family I don't know anyone here except my family or people who know me through them. My mh issues and not working mean it's hard to meet and make friends. I was going to say my family are well known here what I really mean is a lot of people know them to say hello to but don't know what they're really like and as we on this thread know all too well families like this are very good at portraying an image of being hard done by lovely people with an awkward horrid family member (in my case me) who expects too much/has a skewed view of their childhood when they in fact were wonderful generous loving parents (yea OK then!)

Pleasemrstweedie my mother has a birthday soon too, I have no idea what to do, as I said upthread I sent her something for mothers day but did so out of fog and resented it. I've bought nothing so far and don't know what to do. It does really sound as though you are better off without her in you and your daughter's life. I fail to see how a child can be responsible for the breakdown of a marriage.

Aworldofinfinitepossibilities was going NC an active decision or out of avoidance? If you are certain you want to be NC then I agree its best to just block and be clear as I have been with my sister and I've followed attilas advice and told flying monkeys I'm not interested in what she's doing and nor do I want her knowing about me. Once I had been clear on that they stopped trying to tell me stuff and I hope are not telling her stuff about me.

I'm finding it more difficult with my parents. I'd happily go NC clearly with father if my mother wasn't still married to him. Although she is frankly making me feel like I want to go NC with her too. It's my daughter that's preventing me from doing so. For years I saw my mother as a victim and martyr but in the last year or so I've begun to see that's a role she chose to play and that's just as toxic and manipulative as my father and sisters behaviours.

My mother also seems to genuinely think I will feel guilty if my father dies while we are NC and it's got me thinking well she knows me so maybe she's right? Second guessing myself. But she's also coming at this from a perspective of she's never cut anyone out of her life not even my father despite quite extreme dv at times.

Please please someone advise or say if they've been through similar? Anyone been NC and then the parent/family member died?

ashes my god, what you have all managed to survive.
I think you're absolutely right about the NC. Ultimately you need to look after yourself, and if your brother wants to deny how things were for you that's his problem, not yours. NC will be better than any contact - you are clearly a strong person to have got through everything, and your life can only get easier if you remove yourself from their negativity.

mrstweedie it sounds like your mother decided that rather than face whatever happened in her marriage she would just heap all the blame on a third party - you. No wonder she doesn't want to talk to you - that would make it much harder to maintain that lie.

aworld it sounds to me like you feel that you have to give your mother a sort of fair hearing where you go into all the instances of abuse and tell her how it made you feel and so on, and only then are you entitled to reduce or cut contact. I think you are being unfair on yourself if so.These are the people who were abusive/neglectful of you - they're not emotionally healthy and rather than respond to your explanations by listening and trying to understand, they're likely to deny, minimise and gaslight till you feel far worse than before you started. They probably know fine what was abusive in your childhood, and if they don't know their behaviour was abusive that's almost worse because how can they change if they don't know they did anything wrong? I think basically what I'm trying to say is that it's not your job to educate them, you have enough on your plate, and you should take the steps you need to to keep yourself and your DD safe and happy.

Fup I'd be interested to hear too if anyone on the thread has been NC with someone and they died. I think it's one of those things people say to you that is obvious bullshit but sadly the only way you can prove them wrong is to bloody wait until you're all old, so you have to trust your own judgement. In any case I won't regret it if only for the fact that I'm keeping my kids safe from my mother. She already had her golden child and scapegoat all picked out when I went NC with her. Not that I'd begrudge my DD1 being anyone's favourite anything but it's not love, it's just putting you on a certain square on their bloody chessboard.

Did you see that homelessness documentary on BBC1 this week? There was a lady from Croydon who'd gone NC with her abusive mother at 40 and I think her mother had died. She expressed regret about a lot of things but not about the NC.

@aworld I am also an aspie, in my case it's a brain damage thing but also a genetic trait. My mother, see my post above, has it along with my brother to a lesser extent. She refuses to even deal with it and actually told me she was happier when I didn't have a diagnosis (but then she is a narcissist). If I were you keep it to yourself, make it your strength and use what you excel in to whatever gives you comfort.

Keep your power, don't give it away and give your family another reason to belittle you.

Thank you, guys, I really appreciate the kind words. You've validated my NC decision, even as I feel like they deserve to know why (they don't). I'm going to just let them get on with their lives and concentrate on mine and recovering as much as I can.

Just realised what my 'stately homes' is. My dm told me that she fed me, kept me clean and kept a roof over my head against all odds. Not even aiming high with her reasons she isn't a shit parent is she. We often didn't have food in the bathroom didn't have a door (fun in my teenage years and I'm pretty sure it was broken in one of my dad's drunken rages) and the house was council so given to her by the council.. plus those are basics of what you need to keep a child alive.

I'm starting to become more clear headed and less Oh but what if it was me. And the suicidal feelings are gone.

Ashes, what you have been through is absolutely horrific. Huge hugs. Good luck with nc, here's to a more positive future xxxx

Fupfamily I have a real life friend who lost her mother and only felt relief, although she was still low contact due to wanting to see her dad, but had it not been for him would have happily walked away no regrets xxx

Hi all in here

I'm an old mumsnetter who hasn't been on here for quite some time.

Before I had my children I used to look in on these threads and think it summed up some of the things I had experienced. But I think I was 'dealing' with things to an extent where I was OK, or maybe I just didn't want to face things.

As my children grow I have found myself unable to deal with the controlling behaviour of my Mother, and recently have taken the step to take a break from things. This is obviously not being received well. I've had the can't you see what I have done for you, can't you see that I love you, care for you. And now my sibling has taken to sending messages basically telling me I am horrible.

My time growing up was pretty $hit, I had an emotionally abusive step father, and lived my teenage life in fear of doing the wrong thing. We went through a pretty horrendous few years and did come out the other side.

However I thought my relationship with my Mother was OK until I realised that I was being treated like a child and as soon as I tried to challenge that or make my own decisions on things I was belittled. If I said no I had to have good enough reasons, or rather reasons that were good enough in her eyes, my opinion was not valid. Things I have said in the past were taken and used kind of against me in other things and it got to the point where I was limiting what information I was giving because I didn't want it used in that way. Things have got worse and I reached breaking point with something a few weeks ago and took the step to reduce contact with a view to taking a break. The break is having to happen now and I'm now getting all the emotional cr@p and me me me stuff.

I wrote a load of stuff down the other night, just because the straw that broke the camel's back seemed to be an insignificant thing, and some of the things I am writing seem petty, but it's the gradual build up and constant lack of respect, belittling and control that is why I need to do this. A few months back I swore at my husband saying I don't care if I don't *** see her or speak to her again. Kind of gave her a second chance and once again she continued her behaviour, which has become detrimental to me and I do not want it to affect my children.

Twigs the final straw s always something so insignificant if viewed in isolation, but I think the smaller things are what show us just how long the lengths are they I'll go to hurt us.

Nobody makes the decision to break lightly. Your decision is utterly valid, and you know this... Although you'll have t remind yourself of this every single day pretty much.

((Hugs))) be strong, it will get easier

Twigs I think the reason we break with them over small things is that we are so skilled at managing the big things and what happens is you're tying yourself in knots, as usual, so as to keep them happy, and then there is something on top happens and it is just the last straw.
We broke with my mother after she came over to "help" us with moving house. We were understandably busy with the move and our 3 year old twins and managing their emotions about the move and so instead of treating my mother with kid gloves we just treated her like a normal person. She spent the remaining 3 days of her trip acting up.
They have no sympathy for us. Don't have any sympathy for her!

Sorry that sound really harsh. I mean, no sympathy for the bullshit guilt tripping behavior. I think on some level I do have some sympathy for my mother but if she wants to get better it will be without my help, that's clear.

OK I'm probably going to sound like an attention seeker or crazy or something but am i purposely being ignored on this thread? Please by honest? My common sense tells me that it's just a busy thread and you can't answer everyone and its nothing personal but I've posted a few times and asked a few questions with no replies apart from my first post. But then there's my doubt and anxiety telling me that you all think I'm the problem really but don't want to say......

Twigs I agree it always is something small that is the last straw. Only so much you can take..... people that love you don't treat you like that.

helpmeplease

Listen to your common sense; you are not being ignored. This is one of the most supportive threads overall on here and I have been on MN for some years now. Fear, obligation and guilt always kick in with people who have toxic family members. The family members who caused you to think you have a problem are infact the problem.

This thread can alternate between busy and quiet due to the number of people posting on it. The Relationships board threads also move fast and this thread can go up and down like a yo-yo as a result.

I hope you have a Happy and peaceful Easter.

A

Hi help me I just flicked back through several pages and can understand, when you have been posting a lot of stuff, how you might feel ignored, especially as it is painful to do so. I think the issue is you are posting statements, not questions..so if you could see us we'd be nodding sympathetically. But jumping in with a comment on a statement kind of invalidates the statement, and validation is what this thread is about. If you ask a question you will almost always get an answer unless it's mad busy and it gets swamped, but just ask again. ..as Atillathemeercat says.

helpmeplease sometimes posts get a bit lost when there's a lot of traffic on the board, don't take it personally. Keep on posting, it's a great thread...sometimes it's just a bit busier than other times.
xx

Thank you for taking the time to reassure me, I knew I was being silly as feeling ignored is definitely a trigger for me. So hard at times to not think I'm the problem as you all know. Need to learn to listen so my common sense rather than my anxiety lol!

Yeah I can see how it's more statements than questions, there was a couple but easily lost and weren't important questions. I also nod a long but don't say sometimes so I really should have seen that.

Don't worry I will continue to post it has helped a lot reading the stories and seeing the similarities and feelings less alone.

Thanks again for reassuring me on my little wobble, means a lot xxx

Hissy thank you :) I’d not thought about it like that.

toomuch thank you as well. I think you are right about big things and little things. Combination of both and a growing rise of little things.

helpme I’m sorry, I’ve not read your posts, I just jumped right in and blurted a bit. It is hard when we are opening up and feel nervous about doing that, I know I can feel a bit worried if I’ve said a lot. It seems very good in here and I’m glad I have others to talk to, although it’s such a rubbish thing that so many people have gone through stuff.

Actually it probably wasn’t all that little, but in comparison to some of the things I’ve heard from her and if I said it in isolation it doesn’t sound big. But I had my Mother guilting me and basically wanting to use my children as things to show off and big her up. I am not having that. It massively highlighted how selfish (and vain) she is and wanting to use my children in those efforts, I’d been asked a couple of times about something, my DH was asked and our reply wasn’t accepted, then the thing that hurt me most happened with what she said. My wishes were not respected at all, my feelings were hurt.

I was talking to a friend about it and said that I will either miss her and recontact or I will realise that I’m actually happier without that contact. I feel mentally lighter having made a break.

Unmumsnetty hugs to all, and thanks for reading

Oh don't worry twigs it was just a little wobble.

Try and stay strong on the break, I felt guilty and tried to fix things only to get kicked down again. It's never worth it, they won't change xxx

Ashes your story is horrible, your mother is nothing but a sadist, I hope you realise that you do not owe anything to her.

As I've said before, I've been NC about 18 months. She hasn't tried to be in touch at all during this time, apart from one token birthday card (for me) that was sent soon after our bust up (which led to NC from my part). What I've heard from my other relatives, I gather that she's not in the good place at all. But rather than trying to build bridges, she chooses to be professionally offended. Which is fine by me and I prefer NC, just an observation that's all.

However, a very old childhood friend has now tried to contact me through Whatsapp yesterday and today. She still lives in my home village, on the same street as my M. They do not mingle or anything but for some reason alarms are going off in my head, I'm wondering if for some reason she's been sent to contact me. Maybe I'm just paranoid and all she wants to do is a catch up. Or she's come across my M on the church circles (that's the only connection I can think of between them) and now misguidedly is trying to do the right thing.

Helipad

I would ignore any overtures from this friend because this person could well be a "flying monkey" acting in their own interests rather than yours. I would also be wondering why this person has chosen to make contact now.

I would also look at removing yourself from apps like Whatsapp as well.

Firstly thanks to helpmeplease and others who responded to my queries.

Helpmeplease I name change for this thread and while it's relatively easy I worry about forgetting or forgetting to change back so tend to avoid it. I did see and read your response to me though and please know I am thankful.

Mothers birthday been and gone, sent a text but no response. Even my dd starting to lose patience with her.

Definitely understand the 'last straw' thing it's like our guards are up we're prepared for the big shit but the smaller shit catches us out! Our armour isn't on.

I've also had the 'you never went without' crap (in reference to helpmeplease saying you were hammered with 'you had a roof over your head' etc) no we didn't go without basics, essentials but we socialised with other kids in the same economic situation as my parents but because their dad wasn't pissing the money away they had nicer holidays, more days out, even better groceries than us (is my mother would be buying budget range and they'd be getting branded) now I know that makes me sound selfish and materialistic, but it's more it was embarrassing and awkward because other families didn't understand (maybe the parents did I don't know) where all our money went! We didn't go overseas on holiday supposedly for other reasons but I think it was because dad wouldn't have managed 4+ hours without a drink.

This is a busy time at Stately Homes.

Mother's Day and then Easter; traditional "family" times, often used by estranged parents to ignore NC and send chocolate for the kids.

So many of us have posted of late this thread has gone a bit turbo.

So helpplease I'm sorry if you felt you weren't heard, but you most definitely were, I agree with the asking questions suggestion.

I also found that replying to others helps you understand your own situation sometimes.

Ashes my heart aches for the poor little girl that you were. Your parents are monsters. If your db has dc, he needs to understand the truth about granny and grandpa I think, but I think it wouldn't be believed at this juncture.

Remember that your db has made the decision to shun you, so his do lose contact with you because of his decision. One day perhaps they'll contact you when they are old enough..

For everyone else, sending huge love and virtual chocolate. Hug yourselves and remind yourselves how strong you are and how much love you truly deserve.

Honestly, don't worry, I can see how silly I was being now

No it doesn't sound selfish fupfamily, I know what you mean, tbh we were lucky to have food in most days, I'd go to others houses and be surprised at their full cupboards but she always had a few quid for cigarettes! And my dad was always at the pub.

I doubt my mother will bother even trying sending the kids anything for easter she's too busy with her brand new golden grandchild to worry about the 4 she has over here....enjoying the peace though tbh. Hope you all have a lovely easter xxx