"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I know what you mean blatherskite, sometimes posting here really helps other times it feels like no one is listening which just takes me back to real life. But it's hard to keep up with everyone and I try not to take it personally like when I try to tell my mum exactly how I feel one on one and she doesn't listen.

I'm still struggling to get my head round it all, I'm up and down, feels like grief. I saw her and was totally rejected by her, I won't go into details but it was hideous, and I think it's hit home she's never loved me. Trying to move on now but it's hard. Hope you are doing well xxx

Blather I know how you feel - not on here but I got quite into another hobby-related thread on Mumsnet and then I posted and nobody responded! The conversation kind of rolled on past me - if it was RL you'd be thinking, christ, did I just say something really off?

And of course we here all think along those lines a lot anyway, as we spent our childhoods blaming ourselves for the cold, unfriendly, nasty or violent ways we were treated. That feeling of wondering "is it me" is basically the whole root of my problems stemming from my childhood. If I was able to look at someone being unpleasant/indifferent and think, I wonder what got up their nose? and not automatically think it was me, then I'd basically be fine.

Anyway if you want to talk I will definitely reply this time.

Somer, I wish I knew how to break the NC news. We've been NC with my mother for 6 months and my 4yo twins sometimes ask about her and talk about "when granny comes to visit we will do so-and-so" (we live abroad so it's not odd for them not to have seen her for a few months). I don't know. I kind of hope that if I dodge the question long enough they will stop asking . I've no doubt in my mind that being NC is the right thing, for their sakes alone. But they are so young, it's hard to explain to them.

Blatherskite you could also ask MN HQ to move your original thread to relationships and get individual support. Can't remember where you posted orginally but it was a quiet part of MN compared to relationships.

Thanks toomuch
My gorgeous 8yo DS explained it to me and my 4 yo DD in the end

I explained that M had used lots of unkind words and I love her very much and she loves them very much but that isn't acceptable behaviour

We talked about what he would do if someone at school did the same and he explained how he would tell a teacher and if they kept on doing it he would just stop playing with them

So I've just stopped playing with them

Put like that It's a lot easier to get my head around

I think that no matter what I say, where I say it, or to whom it makes no difference.

Hearing any response at all sadly doesn't touch the bit that hurts. I don't think anything ever will.

I'll never feel worth anything, never feel I deserve happiness or to be loved.

Maybe I'm just one of those people that doesn't get their quota.

One of life's neverminds

I matter to my son. That's a consolation. I love him, he knows this and I know he loves me. He knows I try to do the best by him because I do love him.

That's something. Maybe the happiness I missed is out there waiting to give him a double dose.

Hissy of course you deserve love and happiness and there is no reason why it won't come to you. Big hugs xxxx

Somer, yes that's a brilliant way of putting it! So simple really. I sometimes think if I heard her say what she just said to me to my child what would I do? Usually confirms it for me, although at one point she did attack my son with nasty words said to me not him but still, that's when I saw how truly evil she was xxx

I'm Approaching 50

Best prediction for the future is to base it on the past. If I were right and everyone else is wrong, how come they all live happily in their groups? How come my extended family still speak to them? how come there are no consequences for them?

I think I'm a good person, try really hard to be, but it's not good enough. There really isn't any more point in lying to myself.

But thanks so much for the reply. I appreciate it very much X x

I posted a few months back, and now in much more control of how I deal with my family. My mother is a narcissist, my father acts as her enabler and flying monkey when she becomes 'devastated', for example when she didn't get a visit on mother's day last year. My brother physically and emotionally abused me growing up. They didn't keep me safe. They allowed it to continue, and even accused me of causing it. "It's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other" they used to say after he battered me, and called me vile names. Absolutely destroyed my self esteem.

I've just finished a series of counselling sessions which have been incredibly helpful and I'm in a fairly good place. I am currently very LC with my parents and NC with my brother.

I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping some of you can help me with please:

*An invitation arrived today to a family event from my SIL. There's no way I want to go and will be declining. It's likely that this will send my parents into a spin and they will be calling to question me about it. Can I prepare in some way for this, and does anyone have response examples?

*I don't feel anything for them. I'd happily never see them again. I've become indifferent. Is this normal?

Many thanks in advance for any help.

Indifference is considered thd opposite of love - not hate which still has so much passion. So I would say it's perfectly understandable and healthy for you to be indifferent. I also would disengage from your parents, you do not owe them any kind of explanation as to why you don't want to be at the event. You are a grown up with your own free will and you have no obligation to pander to other adults.

Hissy have you looked at blatherskite's thread? People there are recommending therapy. Have you had anything like this? Those feelings are not just going to go away and neither are they reality. You deserve to be happy in yourself.

Thanks for the reassurance Francis, I still regularly have those "Is it actually me and not them?" moments.

I think the "is it me?" is just sooooo ingrained for the children of dysfunction. Even with really excellent therapy and a supportive and lovely DH and my Dbro, I still really struggle with "is it me?" and guilt and so on, on a really deep level. I suppose it's almost part of me and rather than getting rid of it I think the best I can do is be aware of it and recognise the feelings and try to rationalise them when they pop up, but I can see that as a single parent it's that little bit harder. But I do find myself latching on to anything nice someone says to or about me, as a kind of validation "I AM a good person really, it's not me" almost with a feeling of surprise. I kind of store any of these little comments and think about them when I'm down iyswim. Like storing up little bits of kindness.

Good - I actually started writing kindnesses/ compliments in my journal and found it's really helpful to refer to after an encounter with my family of origin.

Sorry to just barge in but I'm having a blergh moment. I used to post on here a while ago but lost touch with if after the security stuff last year. Suffice to say the stately homes thread hugely opened my eyes to my dysfunctional family and to the fact that my F is a narc. It helped to to finally stop engaging with him. NC for years v low c in recent 18 months with everyone.
Cut to now F is celebrating significant b day. I was invited in a way that let me know that not going is big deal. I'm not going for variety of reasons including its v long way and I have serious care responsibilities. The birthday was yesterday the big show off party on the weekend. And I'm scared. I know I'll be made out as the big disappointment failure child and it's hard. If I was there it'd be awful in some way too. I'm worried about the flying monkeys and worried sbout if they don't come as it'll be confirmation I'm really truly out. When I write it down I'm not sure what my issue is. I guess I feel when I speak to them that it's a parade of family life and togetherness that I'm not part of. But j never was even seen I was there so there's no difference really. I guess I called and felt like I was told of everyone who has made the effort to fly out as a way of pointing out how lacking I am and I feel a bit awkward thinking of the various family friends being told how difficult and selfish I am. I just need to breathe and remind myself that it would be awful being there. Either I'd get the same drubbing or I'd get held up as some proof of how great my F must be given xyz accomplishment reflectingela well on him. Either is hideous and I come away from being there feeling totally emptied out.

Sorry I use this board to vent - it helps me feel less crazy.

Just looking at most recent posts it's exactly that feeling. As I sense them all congregating I feel the 'it must be me' getting stronger because I'm the odd one out.
But I'm not. I know that. Just some days it gets hard to know that.
Wish you all strength and peace

I'm sorry. I'm not helping am I?

To answer questions, I have had therapy, I've done domestic violence group and I've done the freedom programme.

The last 2 were for the ex, the laid therapy was initially for the abuse, but also for the family shit.

I've faced the ex last summer and the damage he did/does has knocked me back.

I watched a programme the other night about domestic violence and seeing one of the victims be supported and helped by her family has just hurt.

Life's not fair. So why should I expect anything? I'm not hopeless, I still have some kind of Lottery Winner hope somehow, but I'm finding it harder and harder to have faith in the future.

My ex is such a wanker, arses about with money etc, I spend at least 10 days willing the petrol in my tank to get me to work and the £10 in my purse to see me through.

Still, it makes him happy eh?

I can't afford to go back to therapy, and tbh I'd be paying him to tell me nice things, doesn't mean he means them. Doesn't mean I'll believe any of it.

lasttime you made your choice for good reason. If any flying monkey comes to you, you just tell them this. Tell them too to get a hobby.

There are no more flying monkeys for me. Those that came I told the truth to.

But they all listened, open mouthed... And they all carried on as before...

Hi hissy thanks I've been spending the day reminding myself of this

I'm not sure I understand your situation fully hissy but I think you are comparing their outsides either your inside. You can't control how other people perceive your situation. If you keep doing that you keep engaging and trying to win an impossible argument with someone manipulative and without conscience most likely so you'll lose because they will stoop lower. It's not fair but j find all you can do is let it go and try to fix the damage to you by yourself and with people completely outside the situation. People with NPD are pernicious and if you have any dealings either them try to just fade from their view and interest

nobody ever holds these people to account, I'm the one on the outside.

They carry on their lives as usual, no apology, no repercussions or consequences.

I pay therapy, I'm the one who's broken.

As I say. Fair? Na...

Cherry I feel quite indifferent these days too. I just view them (M & SF) as two unpleasant people, like I was watching them from the outside, like two strangers, unpleasant strangers.

I do feel angry at myself a lot though. Like why I just accepted their behaviour until I was 42 (I've been NC 18 months now). Why did I allow myself to be such a doormat and didn't defend my husband or my children. I know all this stems from my upbringing and their dysfunctional ways but part of me thinks that since I'm an adult, I should have had more backbone.

And sometimes I also think that maybe it's me and I should have just tried harder with them. Just understand their odd ways and ignore the barbs. Maybe I'm just spoiled and selfish, just like my M use to call me.

I have no dealings with any of my family these days. The odd text here and there with sister, but the trust has gone.

If I knew of a person whose mother had moved house and not told her where... I'd think less of the mother.

Helipad, you don't just develop a backbone, and not when your forbidden from having one.

It wasn't in your parents best interests to see you strong/happy.

If I knew of a person whose mother had moved house and not told her where... I'd think less of the mother.
That's what I hope with the woman who bought my mum's house, but I'm not sure. I know what you mean about the trust being gone with your sister though. Even if I ever got an apology (and I won't) from my mother, it wouldn't really make any difference cos I couldn't trust her an inch ever again.