"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Haven't been on for a while. Could kick myself about feeling the need to post, particularly today, I was determined not to.

Recently, my mother has given me a lot of grief about the christmas card that didn't say 'love from' and the birthday card that wasn't to 'mum'...(still trying to deal with business, solicitors are at work) so I sent her a mothers day card I know I'm an idiot but in the interest of keeping the peace, you know?.. She hasn't contacted me with a thank you. OK, fine. No bother. I'd be daft to expect it.

The thing that is really horrible, she works with a number of young women my age, one of them has tagged her on Facebook in a post about how lucky she is that my mum treats her like a daughter and how you should cherish your mother because you will never have another.

I don't even know how I feel to be honest. Just very low and betrayed I suppose.

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I posted but I try to keep up to date with this thread which has been hugely helpful and comforting to me before. I just wondered if anyone had experienced their narc parent getting to a point / age where in their life where you start to question not just the usual state of their mental health from being a narc, but crossing the line to going well... a bit bonkers is the only way I can describe it with my dm?! I am trying to figure out whether my narc mother who is 77 has actually crossed the line and gone over the edge, her thoughts and words have gone beyond warped recently.

Her physical health is fine for her age, she can look after herself and my dad fine in their own large home (he is also in good health), she performs to the outside world as if she is a nice normal person and is dedicated to this act, but her behaviour and words to me, my brother and my father are beyond toxic, her memory is fine apart from the odd forgetful thing but it's only ever where she left something or she'll forget something at the shops, I don't think she has anything like dementia, she is depressed when she feels like it and is enjoying playing the victim, but can then snap right out of that state so I never believe she is truly depressed. She is full of extreme bitter anger and plots and obsesses day and night, she is acting like a mad woman at the moment with her crazy thoughts and words about us her family, she's hounding me and my brother with phone calls, texts and emails, everything is so extreme and poisonous, and this week it's come to a point where her toxic behaviour and words have been so relentless that I am questioning her sanity.

Has anyone had a similar experience or dealt with this sort of situation, and what have you done about it? Or is this normal for a narc to get worse and worse as they get older?! I have no idea how to deal with this, do I have a responsibility now she is this age to do something or is this quite normal with narcs?!

Attila yes I think fog and also to avoid getting a load of shite from other family members (flying monkeys). She also seems to have lied re seeing my sister (her golden child), she's text dd saying she's not seeing sister but a comment on someone else's fb page makes reference to them seeing each other later.

Just had a very brief text thanking for the flowers (which I know she received midday yesterday). No warmth or affection in the text at all and think she's only text at all because dd text her (I didn't ask or expect dd to do so, I wouldn't).

Dd is heartbroken at 'not having a family when everyone else does'. We only moved here a few years ago, under pressure from mum and sis with promises of plenty of support for me and dd as I'm a lp and have mh issues inc occasional agoraphobia so not easy to meet people/make friends. It's a very small town where people rarely move away and so are still very involved with their families and socialise within that.

The support not only didn't materialise, the reverse happened I was expected to provide a lot of support for sis who's also a lp. I massively regret moving here (it's my parents home town but not where we grew up, parents moved away to city for dad's job then came back when he retired, supposedly to help with his parents who were old and ill but which I don't think they did much of, it was mainly left to my dad's elder sister).

Dd is 15, going through exams and really doesn't need this crap! Mum has barely spoken to her since Christmas and dd has had surgery, various health issues and appointments and exams since then!

I'm so angry that she can treat a child this way but I don't know what to do. If I were to cut mum off the appearance would be I was being a bitch to an old woman recovering from treatment for a serious illness. It's a very small town. Moving not possible (I've tried, financially not possible but also not wanting to disrupt dds education in important exam years, but once dd done with school I'll be doing all I can to get is the hell out of here!)

And yes the combination of the guilt, sadness and anger is crippling!

Just had my M turn up at my house again, leaving gifts for my DD and cards for all dc have already opened gifts and dropped them (& the money in the cards) at the charity shop but l am raging!

I am trying to decide if the police would take me more seriously if l send one cease and desist letter first. Any thoughts?

Oh and l stopped speaking to her in October 2012, so it's not that she doesn't know l don't want anything to do with her...

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I posted on this thread, but recent happenings with my mother have given rise to me spending way too much time analysing everything to the point that I think I may need to speak to a professional.

I'm in need of validation I suppose & want a sanity check.. sorry if this is long..

So, my relationship with my mother has never been what you'd call close. We have, in the past enjoyed spa days & shopping trips together on a superficial level, the same as we've had periods of time not speaking. I now realise that the nc periods have usually been prompted by me doing or saying something to "displease" her.

We were estranged for a while about 20 years ago due to the fact that I wanted to get married after a whirlwind romance & she wanted me to wait. Being an adult, I said I was getting married (abroad as it happened) and she was absolutely invited. For whatever reason, she didn't come to my wedding (last year she said it was because she couldn't afford it but at the time this wasn't given as the reason). This caused undue aggravation as she "wanted to see her daughter walk down the aisle" and we didn't speak for some years. Things didn't ever really get resolved & in typical style, we muddled along.

When my marriage ended a few years ago, I called my mother, distraught, hoping for some support. To be fair to her, I spent a couple of days with her but I do remember her saying (whilst I was sobbing in despair) that I "needed to pull myself together". At the time I'm sure she felt she was bring helpful but now I think it's possibly because she couldn't cope this the stress of seeing me like that.

Fast forward to last year when I was diagnosed with cancer. I told my family & she immediately wanted to come down to see me. I said I wasn't ready for visits yet as was just starting to get my head around my diagnosis & needed some time to process things. My mother was crying down the phone saying she felt rejected. Our relationship was very tense for a few months whilst I had treatment and because I didn't keep her up to date with regular/daily phone calls & "keep her in the loop", she got huffy. I remember saying to her that the stress of our relationship was worse than dealing with the cancer and subsequent surgery. She told me not to be so stupid. I tried to engage with her and get her to listen to my point of view, but she just would not reason with me at all, could not see it from my point of view. To be clear, when I was in hospital, she & her husband came to stay in my house so they could visit - so it's not like they were shut out, I just wanted to deal with things privately & without drama which was the polar opposite of how my mother wanted things to be.

The "big" falling out came when I told her I didn't feel able to commit to making a planned overseas trip with her (this was originally planned for last year but had to be cancelled after my diagnosis) due to on-going health challenges. I had a call from her husband, telling me how upset she was. He said he was disappointed in me. A few days laster I got a horrible letter from my mother dragging up everything I had "done wrong" in the past 20-odd years. It was truly the most awful character assasination of me. I was devastated by this & after a few days wrote her a reply - an olive branch suggesting we met up to try to work through issues. I had the letter returned to me unopened with a nasty cover note.

So, I feel completely abandoned and I think the scales have finaly fallen from my eyes. I don't have the mother I deserve, although she thinks there was nothing wrong with her mothering (abusive father who I'm nc with & she enabled him - she didn't protect me). I was never cuddled & never told I was loved.

Thing is - I know she portrays herself as a martyr who would do anything for her children - so long as "anything" is what she wants to do. When I was ill, she told me she had similar symptoms to me & sent to see her gp. At the time, I didn;t really give it much thought - but now I think WTF? My dsil said it was because my mother wasn't the centre of attention & had to make it all about her. That's it really, everything really is all about her & at 70 odd, I can't kid myself she's ever going to change. She plays bdro & me off against each other so it's not even goldren child syndrome. Dbro is even more of a pleaser with her than I am & has a decent relationship with her - even though privately he thinks it's all madness, he won't take sides. He's self medicated with alcohol for years...

So, that's it in a nutshell - there are loads more things which I'm just remembering as I've been thinking about all of this A LOT over recent days/weeks. I sent her a mothers day card but why did I do that? Clearly I still care what she thinks. Does all this sound normal? Am I just adding everything together and coming up with the wrong answer? Is it me? I feel like an orphan & worse, seeing pics of her on fbook cuddling other people's children makes me feel quite ill.

I know this is ramble - but I really am all over the place emotionally about this. I'm nearly 50 FGS - why do I still feel like the little girl who was never good enough?

Banana - yes, yes and yes again. I understand this. Oh yes. What more can I say? Total self absorption. Total need to be the centre of attention - even when daughter is in serious need of support. It hurts. But you will survive. Really recommend getting some professional support.
Something about reaching your 50s and realising that the little girl who was never loved or felt good enough has had enough. Good for you .
Need any recommended reading?

Thanks so much for your reply white. I know I'm brooding on all this at the moment...bordering on obsessing if I'm honest. I have a couple of books but can't seem to get going with them. I'm skimming the pages looking for things I can relate to... Searching for validation again.

I've put up & shut up for most of my adult life & tbh my health scares last year together with getting older has made me reevaluate my relationship with my mother. I'm scared of what it may mean long term as far as nc goes, but as my lovely supportive dp said, I've done nothing wrong & don't deserve the treatment I've had. It's all so bloody sad.

Books can perhaps only do so much. Your dp is absolutely right. You have done nothing wrong and don't deserve the treatment you've had. If it's any help, I talk to my inner little girl. I tell her how strong she has been for so long, but she doesn't need to be strong anymore because grown up WHKK can look after her. I tell her how wise and kind and clever grown up WHKK is, how much she has achieved in spite of her upbringing. I tell her it's ok to be sad and to cry and to be angry. To feel all the emotions she wasn't allowed to feel. I tell her that she doesn't have anything to feel bad about. She doesn't have to forgive and she doesn't have to forget. But she does have to be gentle and kind to herself. I don't know if this makes any sense banana. But know that I am validating everything you say. You don't have to do anything that you don't want to. Be the mother to yourself that you deserve. And grieve the mother that you didn't get. Don't be scared. Ask yourself what it is you want. Knowing that the mother you deserved isn't the one you got. Ask yourself what you need to help you feel good about yourself. Knowing that the validation you seek from your mother isn't going to happen.
Look to your future. Think about yourself. And your lovely dp.

Don't really know where to go or what to do, or who to talk to.

It's probably a combination of things, Mother's Day, women's day and my own Mortality

I walked past a cemetery, saw a headstone. Beloved wife, mother, grandmother, sister, daughter.
Or something.

I may not have all the titles down correctly, but you get the gist.

My sadness is who would I be? Nobody's wife, nobody's daughter, nobody's sister.

I was all these things, but hey are all gone.

I'm a mother, true, but God knows if I'm any good at it.

I'll try and Buck myself up.

Hissy

Sorry to read you have felt like that, hope you feel a bit better today.

Mothers Day is also known to me as "Clinton cards day"; to me it is meaningless. Am thankful that my own mother does not like that day either.

I have also found myself becoming more aware of my own mortality but I am not afraid of that.

You are a fine parent to your son; you set and show him a good example unlike your own parents who failed you utterly.

Successful hack?! What is that?

Anyway, yes Banana everything you say resonates with me, this is the second post I've read today thinking that sounds just like my mother, even down to her attention seeking over your health problems. I'm in my mid 30's and have a 5 yr old dd but still feel like there is a little girl inside me trapped by my mother's ea behaviour, still swinging between seeking her approval and rejecting her toxic behaviour. I would definitely recommend professional help, I had CBT a few years ago and it really helped me come to terms with things and grieve for the mother I should have had instead of the one who I was given who has punished me all my life.

I have to say I think treatment needs topping up at times, I'm now in a place again where I'm finding things very hard and am about to start CBT with the same counsellor again. I can't go no contact with my mother where we live in the same village and for the sakes of my dd, father and brother, so for me I think I need to keep seeking help dealing with things, I have read some books but found CBT hugely helpful and being able to sit in a room telling a professional everything, no holds barred, was so cathartic, I felt emotionally purged during that period and a huge weight lifted from my shoulders.

Has anyone ever been for counselling WITH their mother?? My therapist suggested I try and bring my mother to sessions and I have to say I could easily get her there, she would love the attention and drama (whilst still blaming me for everything of course!). I think it would just be too much to go through though, and doubt very much she would listen to anything or take anything I say seriously, she would just play the victim.

I assume it means 'gimme all your money' :) MN will zap it soon I'm sure.

Moochy if your mother is still bullying you please do not take her to counseling with you. You would lose that secret safe place with your therapist as it would be forever invaded, scorned and belittled by your mother. Sometimes therapists do not understand how truly toxic a parent can be. That time is forvuou to heal, it should NOT become all about your mother.

That was supposed to say "for you to heal".

Moochy

re your comment:-
"I can't go no contact with my mother where we live in the same village and for the sakes of my dd, father and brother"

These are not good enough reasons frankly not to go no contact.

What current level of contact do you have with them; I would further lower it.

Your mother was not a good parent to you, she is and will be a crap example of a grandparent to your child. She is also seeing all too clearly how you as her mother are being treated her. You really cannot afford to let your most previous resource i.e. your child be similarly and emotionally harmed by such toxic people like your mother. You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, your mother is no different.

You think your father and brother have considered you at all in all this?.
What roles have your brother (probably more favoured) and father played in your family of origin?. I would think that they have also played their parts to perfection in your family of origin's dysfunction. People like your brother and father (particularly him) have acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Your dad has clearly failed to protect you and your sibling from her mad excesses of behaviour. He is really her hatchet man here and probably also needs someone like your mother to idolise as well.

What is your own role here as well as your mother's in your family of origin? I am wondering if you are perhaps the scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

I would think seriously about now finding another therapist and preferably now someone who has NO bias about keeping families together. Bringing you and she into the same sessions is not just a bad but absolutely terrible idea on this therapist's part. People like your mother particularly if she is a narcissist in terms of personality can and do manipulate therapists all too well and she would likely either not attend or just use the session as a stick to further bash you with. Whatever, it is not going to end well for you so do not put yourself ever through a joint session with her.

You do not need your mother's approval any more, not that she would ever give that to you anyway.

Hi Moochy (and other homers).

The thought of trying to get my mother to engage in joint counselling is statistically less likely than an alien invasion of planet Earth! As you've rightly said re your mother, she'd love the attention & drama (true of my mother also) but I could see her actually getting up & walking out if challenged, such is her belief that it's everybody else in the wrong.

I find it astonishing that in all the years that she's fallen out with countless friends and family, she's never asked herself whether it might be in fact something she's doing wrong rather than her belief that it's everyone else?

She has often said "what have I done to deserve all this" and "was I that bad a mother?". She absolutely believes she's in the right ALL THE TIME.

I find myself having imaginary conversations sometimes where I say it how it is. If I ever said these things to her face, my behaviour would no doubt be hailed as disgusting and I would be a terrible daughter for daring to speak to her like that. A few times I've merely tried to reason with her, she's suggested that I'm talking down to her like an employee and who do I think I am....

Sigh.

Banana- I could have written that about my M!

Years of falling out with friends and family for the most trivial of reasons and never once questioning that it might somehow be her and not them.

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry ......

Ps Moochy - please don't let your M anywhere near your counsellor. That's your time and your space and certainly not hers!

Struggling lately. I just feel lonely, not helped by the fertility problems.
I just wished there was just one female family member I could talk to :(

Me too loonley. Feeling very, very alone.

Been to CBT earlier today and have just felt tearful all day

hello
Can anyone who has gone NC give me any tips on how to explain this to an 8 and 4 year old?
We've been super LC for nearly a year so it won't exactly come as a shock but help from anyone who has been through this would be very much appreciated
Thank you

I'm grieving for my DM, while she's still alive.
NC, she has serious MH issues, which meant after 20 years I had to just cut off from her before I also broke too. You can't help someone if they won't help themselves. When you've tried and tried and tried and tried, but nothing changes, you retreat into self preservation.
My little DB is seriously fucked up because of her. And even though I know I should be sympathetic because she's ill, I just want to fucking shake her back into normality.
If you had a broken leg, you'd put a plaster cast on it to heal. So why is it okay for someone to walk around causing devastation with a broken mind???
Mental Illness is a cunt, and I miss my Mum.

I'm not sure this thread is helping me. Feeling very much like I'm crying out for help in RL but no one is listening and it feels much the same here. It's fair enough and I'm not blaming anyone or being critical as that's the way these threads should work but I feel like I have absolutely nothing to give right now and I know it's selfish just to be here to take.

I'll try to come back when I'm feeling a little stronger.

Blatherskite you're not being selfish, it's a support thread, you're allowed to not give a lot when you are in need. I'm sure when you are feeling stronger you will help others too. I'm not sure what your toxic situation is (mine is my mother, now NC for over a year) but it's hard. I hope you can find a bit of peace or come back and chat. There have been a lot of new people lately so it can feel a bit like shouting in the darkness sometimes, but it comes and goes and other times the thread is slower. Have you had you're own thread about your situation? I don't really use MN except for a quick look at SH, so probably missed it if you did.
Hope you have a better day today.

x