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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Love You To Death: A Year Of Domestic Violence Tonight 9pm BBC2

153 replies

Hillfarmer · 16/12/2015 19:28

Vanessa Engle documentary focussing on the lives of the 86 women killed by their male partner or ex-partner in 2013.

When oh when is this going to change?

We need to protect women, but when and how is male behaviour going to change? Who is working on that? Where is change happening on that?

OP posts:
suzannecaravaggio · 17/12/2015 23:48

I was referring in particular to you searching for "reasons" why a man might do this

I think you need to realize that to explain is not to exonerate Sukura!

Also there are usually a whole chain of factors which combine to bring about an outcome, you could look for a reason at any point in the chain

suzannecaravaggio · 17/12/2015 23:50

Offred, I feel you are gas lighting
dont be daft
there's no gas lighting going on
it's a discussion

Offred · 18/12/2015 00:13

What I said was that I disagreed with saying this is a problem with men. It is not a problem with men, it is a problem with abuse and it's a problem for the whole of society to deal with.

Unless we look at the triggers for abusive men to kill female partners how in the hell are we to deal with the problem?

What's your solution - lock up any person who happens to have been born male?!

It's insulting (and pretty appalling IMO) to men to say it is a problem inherent in their DNA.

Offred · 18/12/2015 00:16

And I wasn't searching for reasons.

I was interested in the fact that a number of the victims in the documentary were killed after debt issues, interested because I see clients with debt issues and it's something I'll be thinking about more deeply from now on in terms of being on notice to explore whether there are control/abuse issues also...

Have you been on the Wine?

Your posts are pretty dumb offensive tbh.

Offred · 18/12/2015 00:18

And yes, individual men are responsible for their behaviour as individual men, they bear some responsibility for group behaviour and it's affects but saying things like women can't live with any man because being a dangerous killer is in their DNA is totally insane and completely dangerous.

Elendon · 18/12/2015 00:33

Re Then again it seems as if sometimes a person can just snap with no apparent warning?

In my two years at CAB, I never once encountered an abuse tale in which someone had snapped, it was always an escalation. Sometimes, people would say we seem the perfect couple, everyone likes him/her but usually it was my friends and family have become worried.

And can we please not ask if someone is on the wine. I find that an astonishing thing to ask on a thread that is about domestic violence and abuse.

Offred · 18/12/2015 00:36

I find it pretty astonishing to be accused of gaslighting tbh but the posts apart from being quite aggressive and misinterpreting things are waffly, don't make much sense and were posted late in the evening. If sakura's had a drink it would explain them is all.

CainInThePunting · 18/12/2015 00:51

I watched this programme not really wanting to, I'm glad it was shown and I think it dealt with the people involved sensitively and properly.
It was thought provoking and as someone who left a violent relationship without asking for help because I didn't know it was available to me, I really hope it reaches the women who need to know where to find that help.

BubsandMoo · 18/12/2015 02:04

Sukura I hope you can see that it's sexist and incredibly offensive to suggest that a mans "DNA" might be a reason he kills a woman. Y chromosomes do not abuse. Abusers do.

Domestic violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by males against females but that doesn't make it an inherent male trait; it's a product of a patriarchal/misogynistic culture, and that can be challenged and changed. It's not inevitable genetics and it's incredibly unhelpful to suggest as such.

Shutthatdoor · 18/12/2015 02:11

Sukura I hope you can see that it's sexist and incredibly offensive to suggest that a mans "DNA" might be a reason he kills a woman. Y chromosomes do not abuse. Abusers do.

Exactly.

givepeasachance · 18/12/2015 09:12

I think it is disingenuous to keep saying that male pattern violence is not a thing.
Men are, however you want to spin it, responsible for 90% of violence.

I often wonder if it's ever possible to truly eradicate male violence.

Offred · 18/12/2015 09:29

No-one is saying that! No-one has said that even once.

It was me in fact earlier on the thread posting about it.

What I'm saying is it is not fair or right to draw from the fact that most violent crimes against men and women are committed by men that being a man is the problem. That all men are violent killers because being a man is the problem.

It's manifestly untrue. What I think we need to look at is why are we socialising significant numbers of men to be abusive and violent adults. How is this happening? What are the similar patterns in the crimes?

That then is a starting point to change things.

Saying it is just how men are is awful because it is not how all men are and because it is completely fatalistic. If it is just how men are it can't be changed and should just be accepted as a fact of life.

Elendon · 18/12/2015 09:53

I have a son whom I love to the ends of the universe. He's aware that his sex is violent because he's been on the receiving end of it.

He thinks that men are violent. He is vocal about it and has flagged it up in school and has changed outlooks. Perhaps he and other young men like him will change the world. I hope so.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:03

My kids are all highly aware of sexism too but I'd be heartbroken if any of them (boys or girls) thought that being a man meant being violent. Heartbroken and terribly worried about their futures.

I want my kids to spot and counter sexism. To understand the toxic beliefs that underly it. To make different choices for themselves and to grow up as respectful partners.

I don't want my boys to grow up hating who they are. That's the childhood my xh had - 'men are horrible' 'all women hate men' and he turned out emotionally abusive.

givepeasachance · 18/12/2015 10:09

Offred, saying there is such a thing as male pattern violence is not saying all men are violent.
I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtrusive on this point.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:14

I've responded once yesterday to someone who said 'men are the problem' and then again to Sakura who claimed that violence is in men's DNA and women cannot live with men.

I responded to your accusation that my posts denied the existence of the fact that the vast majority of violent crime is committed by men. I have done no such thing at all and I deeply resent the implication that I did.

I don't think it is acceptable to say 'men are the problem' or that being violent is an inherent part of being a man. Male violence is a problem. Abusive men are a problem. The culture of 'being a man' is a problem. None of that means being a man is a problem.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:15

If you read it is me who raised that fact on the thread in the first place - majority of violence committed by men and often wome who kill partners have suffered abuse at their hands in the past.

Original poster
Hillfarmer · 18/12/2015 10:16

Er...I don't thing Offred is being deliberately obtuse. I think there is some confusion about cross-posts and responses, and who is talking to whom.

OP posts:
Elendon · 18/12/2015 10:22

My son does not hate who he is (?), he's happy in his confidence that his sex is the most violent in this world - he's obsessed with wars and history.

He understands that the vast majority of violent crimes comes from his sex. That's a healthy attitude in my opinion. He is a young teenager, who has been bullied in an all boy's school. He has had experience of it.

He hates the slogan 'boy's will be boys'. He thinks it's an excuse to behave badly. He is a lovely young man, who would never abuse anyone. I'm happy to say he's not his father's son.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:25

I didn't mean your son in particular elendon. I was thinking of my xh whose abusiveness is as a direct result of being raised by a mother who was abused by his father and taught him that being a man was appalling and objectionable.

I do think it's massively important to distinguish the fact that the majority of violence is committed by men from the idea that as a man being violent/abusive is part of who you are.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:27

That idea is one of the excuses made by abusive men - 'this is what men do, people might not think it's ok but it part of being a man'.

Elendon · 18/12/2015 10:27

And just for the avoidance of doubt, he offers up these opinions. I don't feed them to him. However, he lives mainly in a feminist household. So perhaps his outlook in life is due to his upbringing, or perhaps he just is a lovely person.

Offred · 18/12/2015 10:32

Mine do too elendon, they are always spotting various sexist, racist, homophobic etc behaviours. I've overheard them countering things with their peers. It's very important. I'm just conscious of avoiding my MIL's mistakes. She is lovely (but damaged) and her well intentioned behaviour with xh's dad and her DC deeply damaged both of the DC. SIL is too afraid to ever have a relationship despite being terribly lonely and H never had a GF till me (when he was 30) and then treated our relationship like it was a war. MIL says she wishes she could go back and change things.

givepeasachance · 18/12/2015 10:42

Language may be important here.

Men may not be the problem but masculinity is undeniably the problem.

amarmai · 18/12/2015 10:47

Patriarchy was created by men for men . It is a spectrum , the far end of which is the soldiers who kill women who step out of line. All men benefit from this system and all women are damaged by it , including those who ally themselves with the soldiers. The Y chromosome is connected to violence , even more so , the double Y Y chromosome. It is dangerous for women to live with men. I also doubt it will ever be dismantled.

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