Love You To Death: A Year Of Domestic Violence Tonight 9pm BBC2

[Hillfarmer]

Vanessa Engle documentary focussing on the lives of the 86 women killed by their male partner or ex-partner in 2013.

When oh when is this going to change?

We need to protect women, but when and how is male behaviour going to change? Who is working on that? Where is change happening on that?

Maria Jones' murder is worth a copy and paste from the article:

Maria Jones, December 2 2004 Jones, 36, was stabbed nearly 100 times by her husband, Graham, 40, at their home near Stockton. The court heard how Maria was so afraid of her husband, a police officer, that she kept a knife under her pillow. He pleaded guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, claiming his wife had taunted him over an affair with a younger man. He was sentenced to eight years. Judge Peter Fox QC said, "I take into account fully the provocation you suffered arising not only from your wife's blatant infidelity, but the taunting about it you received from her."

The judge believed a man who stabbed his wife nearly 100 times. Blatant infidelity and taunting. There you go.

I haven't seen the documentary yet, but I read the BBC piece about it. This included a list of names of all the women so killed in 2013. I found it striking the number of names that were not obviously of UK origin (admittedly not definitive). Is that part of the problem - that it is accepted or not acknowledged in particular communities? Are we failing to tackle that aspect of it in the same way the Rotherham abuse was not dealt with?

N.B. I don't mean to belittle the lives of any of these women BTW, of any cultural background. They are all tragedies.

Clearly in some cultures and religions sexism is part of the structures of the state or the religion and violence against women is part of the administration of justice. Clearly that poses a risk to women but it's not the main issue. The main issue is the sexist beliefs and though some cultures promote sexism more freely it's the beliefs that are the problem and they are held by many people of all ages and backgrounds.

Hatred of women knows no bounds in culture or country of origin.

I found the programme reignited all the past memories from my abusive marriage and reminded me of all my lucky escapes.

It's only 4 years since freedom but amazing how the mind serves to make these traumatic memories so much easier to deal with over time.

It's no bad thing I remembered again how bad it is in these relationships, I should never forget for the sake of all these women.

And I also agree even though the programme was supposedly to highlight the problem, a lot of the narrative was incredibly problematic. There was way too much "She deserved it" for me what with all the stories of infidelity, gamblers, drug addicts etc.

Not once did I hear the word abusive.

I'm afraid I can't remember the woman's name who was murdered after she had reported to the police her DANGEROUS ex was in her garden and the police did not come round, but that case made me SEETH. The police failed to protect her. What more evidence do you need that someone is a threat?

I would think there is a clear case for negligence there. Made me so furious the way the police officer spoke about it "We weren't to know he would do that". WTF did they think he was going to do? I suppose they may have thought he was 'just' going to punch her in the face at the worst, and that could wait? Bastards.

I agree peas the woman who reported her ex in the garden was not protected in the way she should have been. There should have been a marker on her address and the police should have been straight round.

Where I am (and I think everywhere?) there is the MARAC. My local MARAC is very impressive.

But, equally, everywhere, there is misogyny and poor understanding of domestic abuse, its prevalence and seriousness. Take those grandparents, who believed the man murdered his wife due to 'debt'. Their daughter was killed and they totally miss the point - it's about one thing and one thing only - control of women

The policeman who said 'it's a big step up' made himself look utterly uninformed and I wouldn't want him on my local police force.

I thought giving the children a voice was incredibly, incredibly powerful.

I wanted to add my thoughts here but first let me explain who I am. My name is Adam Quean and my sister was Chantelle Barnsdale Quean who was featured on the programme. Abby and Izzy (the little girls on the documentary) are my nieces. I found this thread after googling the documentary name.

As for the posters asking about their mental health, what happened was devastating for them and they are both currently in therapy. Abby (the older one) has gone for a lot longer than Izzy and her sessions are slowly being decreased. They both have a large support network of friends and family around to help them through. I myself, with my partner and our little boy have moved to Barnsley to be close, so has my younger sister and her husband. They also have extended family and their great grandma extremely close by. I personally did not think it was wise to do the documentary due to the children and the exposure it would bring them but my mother wanted to raise awareness and try to make sure no other family has to go through the pain mine has.

To HandyWiseWomen, I can assure you my parents have not missed the point. Believe me, we have spent a long time thinking and discussing about why it happened and my mother said debt because that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Stephen had put the family in debt before and my grandparents had bailed him out. However, this time it had gone too far, too much had been uncovered and it looked like Chantelle was going to finally leave him for good. So although she said debt, she fully understands the other parts to the story, having lived it. I know this is difficult to sum up in a documentary and you only get to form an opinion from what you see, so I hope this helps to put your mind at rest.

Oh Adam. I think you should be proud of your family. The girls and their grandparents were so brave contributing to the documentary. I appreciated, particularly the girls' contribution because it really helped show the real human cost. Children's voices are often lost in things like this. I just thank them and your family from the bottom of my heart for allowing them to contribute and I hope they'll not suffer more as a result. I don't know what to say other than i wish you all so much love. X

I'm glad they mentioned the debt issue too actually, it's not something I'd considered before this documentary. I don't think we could ever expect you guys to have all the answers, the deep love for Chantelle came across which was another important point. The stereotype is of isolated women cut off from families but Chantelle's parents were clearly deeply involved and loving.

Dear adamquean,

It must have been a difficult decision for all the family about whether to take part in the documentary. There is always an edit, and it's impossible to put everything in. However I hope you found that the documentary-maker was worthy of your trust.

It's brilliant that your family have 'circled the wagons' aroud your nieces, but your loss as a family must be devastating. I am so sorry for your loss. Although you have misgivings, it is a remarkable thing that the girls have done, and maybe they can be very proud one day. It is a situation where victims are cowed into silence. I hope they can see it as 'speaking up for mum' and that they don't get any sort of negative response from anyone.

My mother already took the kids to school, picked them up from school and gave them tea so in truth the transition to living there full time was not too difficult on them. Izzy still wakes up crying for her mum but slowly they are getting better at coping.

I think the isolation is a valid point though because although Chants had her family and friends, she was still isolated to an extent because of his controlling nature and her wanting to protect us from the full extent of their troubles.

She nearly left him about 18 months before this when they lost the house and the car but she ended up giving in and going back to him. It lead to a lot of ill feeling towards him for a long while. I personally had not spoken to him for a number of years but to keep the peace and give the kids the best atmosphere they could, my parents and grandparents took him back into the fold. Just the Christmas before it happened, I saw her on Xmas Day at my Mothers (he refused to go because I was there) and she wished me Happy Xmas and asked me to please make up with him. Due to the estrangement, that was the last time I saw her alive.

Hillfarmer,

The documentary definitely came out as a positive, I thought it was well executed, respectful and thought provoking. The only bit I disliked to be honest was the end part, pouring vodka on her grave. Made Chants look like a pisshead when it could not have been further from the truth!

As for the negative response, my stepfather Stuart (the guy in the documentary) has a massive family who all live round here so there are no worries on that front.

My personal worries came from dragging it all back into the public eye and the fact the kids might learn a little too much of what happened. Although, funnily enough my mum came round for a cuppa this morning and told me some little scally at their school had already told the kids in great detail how their mum had died.

He is such a cowardly small insignificant little man with all he did and said trying to cover it up. I'm pleased he didn't get away with it.

I thought the bit with the vodka might grate a bit but honestly I thought it was a lovely thing to do with the girls, to help them remember the real her.

And as I said upthread I do think it's important for the girls to know who their father is and what he did in the long term. He'll not be in prison forever.

Luckily they will be mid twenties at least when he gets out (minimum sentence of 18 years) and no matter whether my mum is still here or not, I will be and so will their Auntie (my other sister). Myself and my partner were more than willing to take them in and adopt them as our own, for the first week after it happened they lived with us in Leeds, out of the way. My mother wanted to take them permanently as they already had an established routine with her and practically lived there anyway.

As for his trying to cover it up, it was laughable to say the least. His stab wound was barely a scratch and there was about a teaspoons worth of blood on the floor (I helped my mum clean out their house after it happened).

Suffice to say, the jury did not take long to make up their minds about what happened.

I should clarify, by my mum being still here, I mean alive, not as in run off with the milkman!

What a wonderful close and strong family you are ..so much love you are giving to those girls, your story has been in my thoughts all day .
...and words fail me really ...

Yes, I read about his 'stab wounds' and the paramedic's testimony that in his opinion they were self inflicted... Astoundingly arrogant and incredibly selfish to put his own Children through the trial and the people who had helped him with his debts so much.

Yeah, I was in court when the paramedic gave his testimony. It would have been funny if it was not so sad.

I feel like I have hijacked this thread a little. I don't want to derail the discussion completely so I will finish here for tonight. Listen, if anyone does have any questions, feel free to ask and I will check back and answer them in the morning.

As for the domestic abuse issue, don't let these women die in vain. The purpose of the documentary is to shine a light onto this problem and show that these women were real people with feelings, worries, families and friends, rather than just a statistic you read somewhere. Make sure that if you or someone you know is being abused, that they get the help and support they need to extract themselves from their abuser. Easier said than done I know but it has to start somewhere, right?

very powerful documentary, as pp's have said I have the impression that control and seeing the partner as a possession rather than a person have a part to play.

Then again it seems as if sometimes a person can just snap with no apparent warning?

Many of us have been where your sister was and got away, myself included.

It's made me very conscious of the importance of talking about DA and in spotting it at every opportunity in my voluntary work at CAB and with the NHS. Every contact is an opportunity to offer advice, support and intervention that could end up being life changing or lifesaving.

It's shocking that a history of domestic abuse is not an aggravating factor where a crime being racially motivated etc is. It's shocking that no-one is linking these crimes and they are being treated as individual incidents.
One thing I'll take from Chantelle's story to CAB specifically is greater awareness of the dangerousness of financial abuse and control and that women have been killed when men lose control over their image of being solvent.

It's great that the documentary is highlighting a full year of these crimes all linked together.

All people can snap without apparent warning sometimes. Often if you look into it you see warnings with hindsight but it's like Lundy Bancroft asserts in his book, the dangerous people are people who believe they are entitled to behave in appealing ways when they do snap.

*appalling

Someone who believes it is ok to kill over losing face or losing control... Just absolutely frightening and devastating.

People who believe women are subhuman.

Offred, I feel you are gas lighting on this thread by saying men are not 100% responsible for being the dangerous killers they are.
It is emphatically a male trait to be a killer and the women who kill- apart from the rare exceptions- are doing so to prevent themselves from being killed.
It's so difficult on a practical level to leave a relationship, especial with children- there is nowhere to go. I do feel that women are gas lighted a bit by being told they would have somewhere to go if only they would attempt to leave. Most don't. Refuges don't have enough places, how are they supposed to get the kids to school if they don't have a car, not to mention the fact that leaving is the most dangerous time for a woman- the time she is most likely to be murdered.

Not gas lighting would be to say: this is serious. We have a serious problem here when women live with men. What would it take for people to sit up and say: maybe picking women off one by one by getting them to live with men doesn't work for women.

I was referring in particular to you searching for "reasons" why a man might do this (debt etc)
How about their dna being a reason? That's the closest to the truth we are ever going to get