"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

good can you actually really find that you can trust in your MIL to be normal? ie not to get all upset at something you didnt know you'd done wrong?

I find it hard with my steamroller-but-lovely MIL to really trust that she'll say when she's unhappy, even when the firm evidence is that she will be straightforward ... I can't bring myself to really trust, because being let down would be so painful.

GoodtoBetter tell him she was going to ask for him to be taken into care cos he "was such an awful child" that she couldn't hope with.. say it would be his fault if she didn't come back/had an accident or imply she might not come back thanks for posting this, I read it and thought wow, that's exactly what my mum used to do when I was a child/young teenager, and it used to upset and scare me (she also used to threaten to send me to my father's 'and see how you get on with him because I'm telling you he won't want put up with you any more than I do' then reach for the phone - my father was absent and incommunicado). And honestly, I think she would still feel justified in using these things as a control mechanism as she still tells me and everyone in hearing distance what an awful child I was (and still am). Even writing this, there's something in my head saying 'but maybe you were..' (and another part of me arguing that I was probably about average girl with top grades, and bad/nonexistent parenting).. this stuff going round, back and forth in your head can make you feel crazy?

Yeah, mine used to threaten my brother with sending him to live with our (alcoholic) father, who she'd demonised, so it was quite a threat, she said it was because she "couldn't cope". It's a really terrifying thing when you're little. And really mashes your self-esteem as it's this awful possible punishment so it reinforces that you must be this terrible child and that everything must be your fault. Even for me, who wasn't really subjected to that line of "parenting" it provoked that awful stomach churning fear and panic, feels like the ground underneath you isn't stable.
Meer I do mostly trust her to be normal but it makes me twitchy and I have to really stamp down my urges to beg him to ring her and "sout out" any possible misunderstanding. I have to consciously step back and remember that she's not my mum and keep my mouth shut and stay out of it, iyswim. She IS normal btw
Do you remember I was a bit worried after FIL died about how she'd cope? Well she's doing great, has made friends with the woman in the neighbouring flat and now the woman opposite too and they go out socially together and do all sorts, they went on a visit to a nearby town recently organised by the village (it's really good at doing stuff for senior citizens) and went to a lunch for OAPs that she really enjoyed. She's got the special OAP travel pass for the bus that her friend recommended and can get a bus into town and walk all round and visit where she used to live.
There was always this thing/family "joke" that she was a bit useless and ditzy and could get lost in her own street and it was bullshit, she can be a bit ditzy but she's thrived since FIL died, he could be a bit of a bully and enjoyed this idea that his wife was a bit dozy. He would never have gone to any of these OAP things, was very scathing about it and she'd never have made friends with these women with him around. She's never had friends, just him and family. It's nice to see her blossom so.

sounds like you MIL has really blossomed - lovely for her. she's been let off the leash hasn't she!

mine is lovely, straightforward, reliable, honest .. sometimes rather, ahem, certain that her way is best but she does back off ... eventually.

She's gone from telling me I shouldn't see male friends alone (!) when husband and I first got together to actually babysitting when I go on a rare weekend away with a friend, female or male and telling me it's a good idea. (It's a bit unusual but given my particular family background, they're friendship bonds that have deepened into substitute family). She's changed in many ways and helped us so much, her and her husband.

We love each other -she's told me outright- and I can trust her. I just find it hard to do so, which is my issue not hers.

Who says to children I am going to send you away or I am going and not coming back.

Good Glad your mil is doing well

It would be good for teachers to have training in toxic families but ime my mum was/is such a convincing actress that the teachers would believe her over me. The teachers would tell me that I had to be nice to my parents at home. Another incident that happened when I was 10 and she took me to school wearing a neck brace, I'm not sure if she needed it or whether she was trying to get sympathy and I remember my teacher asking me what was wrong with my mum and I said I didn't know. The respite care home did feel like a punishment, especially when my sister was treated to teenage magazines, even though she was 7 or 8 at the time and got to go to McDonald's, weekend visits to Cornwall to visit their friends and spend time with my grandmother, which hurt as my mum knew that my grandmother and I were very close. In a way, my grandmother did feel that I was treated quite harshly at times and my sister got away with too much.

Toxic parents are often pillars of the community. Mine was a very well respected (professionally at any rate) teacher.

Your MIL sounds lovely Meer. Mine is too, she has told me more than once that she considers me her daughter that she might as well have given birth to me as well, that her feelings for me are the same as if she had. iyswim. Sounds simpler in Spanish, ha ha ha.
From what I've picked up over the years, I think there was a certain amount of EA in her marriage with FIL, and in the distant past the occasional incidence of PA too, so although she's been sad, his death has set her free in many ways iyswim.

Good to hear about your Mil, Good. My Grandma blossomed like that when my Grandpa died. I loved him a lot but after he died I heard a lot of stories about how he was a tyrant, especially when he was still drinking.

Just seen this article in Bustle (don't judge lol) and thought we all might find it interesting.
www.bustle.com/articles/112474-5-reasons-you-shouldnt-feel-bad-about-not-talking-to-toxic-parents

This quote particularly stood out:
Though I've been actively putting distance between my mother and myself for nearly a decade, I've also re-initiated contact with her a number of times — because I was worried about her health, because I felt lonely, because I wanted to see our aging family dog. Yes, things got out of control almost immediately every time, and I regretted reaching out, but we need to be easy on ourselves when stuff like this happens. It's not your fault for hoping or wanting — and it's also not a mark against you if it doesn't work out.

good i did wonder about your FIL when you said that she'd blossomed. I reckon a healthy relationship is one where each partner can reach their social potential, if you see what I mean ... where they can have as many or as few friendships as they want.

A relative of my husband's grew up in a household where her mother went from having no firends at all to near enough a village-full, once her husband died. Im so glad its easier to divorce now and that women aren't trapped in the way they were!

I really enjoyed that article, pocket thanks. For me, this bit stood out:

It’s okay to let go of your family. Society tells us that family is number one in your life  —  they come first ... They would do anything for you, and you would do anything for them. It’s not always the case. The truth is, they are just people. They are not infallible. They are not perfect. They can be bad, and cruel, and toxic  —  despite being your blood. And it’s okay to walk away. It’s okay. It is okay.

I think my mother's smothering narcissism has made me see her as sort of superhuman somehow sometimes.

Aye, FIL was a complicated man, not always a nice one either.

Thanks pocket for article. Not heard of bustle before - is it that bad to admit reading?

Did click through to the reddit site. Love this post

www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/3utnqe/epic_narc_shutdown/

Ha, that Reddit link is fab.

I get... embarrassed... about reading stuff that is geared towards women.

Or doing stuff that's geared towards women.

My dad wanted me to be a boy. The only way I could get any approval when I was a kid was by rejecting the world of femininity en masse.

It's made my whole gender identity very confusing

My mum (who I haven't had any contact with for 6 months and haven't seen in over a year) has just sent me an email to tell me she has cancer. She's asked for pictures of the kids.
Feeling a bit like I could do with a manly pat on the back and a strong cup of tea.

and

What are your initial thoughts?.

Has your brother received a similar missive/missile from her as well?

I would not at all respond to it but seriously now consider blocking her e-mail account from reaching your inbox.

She phoned him and told him. It's breast cancer, caught early. She should be fine. She'll have an operation and radiotherapy. What are my initial thoughts? That it's what I've dreaded and that there is no easy way through it. That I have to do what I feel comfortable and good about doing because she will paint me as the evil daughter if she wants, no matter what I do or don't do.

I am waiting for her flying monkeys to descend upon you.

She may well be ill but she has not fundamentally altered in terms of personality; she is still a narcissist and you are still reading her e-mails!. Even from afar she still has you well trained.

Do not reply at all to this emotive missile of hers, doing so will simply just suck you right back in again.

Yeah, quite surprised my uncle hasn't interfered yet. At least we are in different countries now, makes life a little easier. Will talk to Dbro tomorrow (we were going to skype anyway)

oh god atilla ... it's a potentially dangerous situation. She can't get too drawn in but she can't just block her outright!

I don't think blocking her completely is the way I want to go. Need to try and think things through calmly. She will enjoy the drama of a medical issue. That's sounds fucking cold-hearted but it's true. I can say that here, not IRL.

Yes she will certainly enjoy all the attention because she is a narcissist, I do not think its at all cold hearted to write that.

www.families.com/blog/why-dont-significant-life-events-change-narcissists

This may be worth a read also.

Interesting article, I can see that too in her e mail. She isn't (so far) using this as a chance to make amends which I think a normal person would, because, as the article says..nothing has changed. She's still been wronged rather than in the wrong so there is nothing to apologise for. But....
I want to think carefully about what I will be happy doing. It may have already spread to the lymph glands and she may ultimately die of this, I want to deal with it in a way that I can feel good about. So, possibly an acknowledgement without getting emotionally involved.
I know the timing isn't her doing, but it's typical that this happens just before Christmas.

Hello all. Sorry for jumping back in again - I first found this site a couple of years back when I needed, and received some good, advice on how to deal with my dm. Since then I have had a lc relationship - we speak on the phone every few weeks about the weather and the cats (real duty calls) and see her twice a year say, but I find these visits stressful.
Anyway I came home from work today to discover a rambling (drunk) message on the answer phone. The gist of it was I never call her and what's wrong with me? Do I have problems? Am I ill? Do let her know.

My question to you is have I been right not to jump on the phone to challenge this straightaway and how should I approach it next time we talk?

for you Good

You have my sympathies. In lots of ways. My M and me were very LC a few years ago when she developed breast cancer

My initial reaction was to drop everything and travel to where they live to help out at going along to appointments or whatever

This may have been FOG but I like to think I automatically wanted to help out of love and not FO or G

Anyway M refused. Turned very stoic. (Opposite of what article suggests) but that stoicism was really a way of carrying on so that people could tell her how amazing she was for managing etc

It was - looking back - another indication of the lack of a normal relationship between us

Anyway I wouldn't have been able to block emails then

May be I could now , now I know so much more about NPD but I'm still not sure that I could

But I will say that I did what I could from 3 hours away with a full time job and 2 small children- flowers, tel calls etc - and it was never really appreciated. She would thank me for the flowers but then follow it straight away with talk of the beautiful flowers / cards/ baskets of fruit that she'd had from other people !

But you have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and know you did what is right for you

For what it's worth- M made a full recovery and temporarily seemed like a different person but soon slipped back into her normal ways

As long as you know from the outset that one way or another you won't please her and won't do the right thing it somehow makes it much easier to handle