"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Then the right decision for you is made =)

Glad that the decision came to you with a feeling of peace - I agree, it will be the right one.

Hi all, I just thought I would come back and give a quick update and say a big thank you to those of you who supported me and gave advice back in the summer.

I am thankful to say that DH, the DC's and I no longer live next door to the IL's. The relief to have moved is immense, things had gotten to breaking point whilst we were still living next door to them. On top of all the other things that were going on the IL's really hammed it up once they knew we were leaving ranging from spraying highly potent weed killer and digging in our garden to cleaning our windows upstairs and down to taping notices on our door.

Unfortunately we have only moved about 2.5 miles away from them and effectively live on the same road as them although we live in a place that you would only come to for a specific reason i.e. you live here, so that is a bonus I suppose.

For a few weeks after we moved IL's were standing at the side of the road by their house every morning waiting for DC3's school bus to go passed. I then started to sporadically drive DC3 to school and sit them on the other side of the bus whenever possible. I was really worried that they were going to try and stop the bus and take her off as unfortunately they do not have a regular driver at the moment who would know exactly where the children get on or off the bus.

Once our broadband and landline were connected a couple of weeks after we had moved we had a random phone call from a woman claiming to be a long lost friend of MIL's wanting to get in touch with her. At this point in time we hadn't given out our new land line number but realised that it could be found on the online BT phone directory. So now the IL's have our address and telephone number (can't go ex directory because of DH's business) and have made good use of it by dumping a pile of our mail on our doorstep on DC1's 16th birthday. They didn't however acknowledge DC1's birthday but they did DC4's birthday 10 days later but then biologically DC1 isn't DH's even though he loves and treats all 4 of our DC's exactly the same and it doesn't matter to him who is and who isn't biologically his, they never accepted this.

DH also had his birthday and received an obligatory card from his parents, inside it read: To MrMampam, from Mum and Dad. Extremely odd for them to sign the card as 'mum and dad', DH has always called them by their Christian names.

Anyway there are other things that have happened like IL's turning up at places where they know DH will be, telling people that we know that we are being daft and won't let them see DC's 3&4 etc. I know they won't give up easily and there is probably a long road ahead but I just need to focus on moving forward.

Both DH and I actually feel traumatised by what has gone on, it seems extreme but it's the only way I can describe it. Things about the last 2 years just keep unexpectedly keep popping into our heads and when we start to think about it we realise that we were being emotionally abused by these people. They had us believing like we were nothing without them, they undermined us as parents, as husband and wife, as tenants, they controlled us or certainly tried to, they belittled us, we were answerable to them or so they thought. They took away our privacy and what felt like our freedom too. They tried to come between us.

It's sad when you spend the first week in your new house whispering because it has become such a habit as everything we said at a normal volume could be heard (and was listened to) by the IL's and boy did they like to let us know that they knew what we had been talking about!!

I realise it will probably take a long time to get over this and I won't deny that the stress has taken its toll on our marriage. We are both mentally exhausted.
As the IL's try to continue their assault on us even after we have moved house I can't help but have a little fantasy about leaving DH, taking the DC and then I will never have any dealings with these people again.
I feel extremely guilty for having these thoughts especially when I know how bad/guilty DH feels about this situation.

Anyway thanks again for the support and advice I received on this thread, it really did help

mampam im so glad you're at least that far away. Agreed you are going to have a battle to get them out of your life.

Record -everything-. Absolutely everything. Record as much as you can remember and the approx dates. Certainly record every single little odd thing or 'coincidence' that happens from now on and the measures you are taking to stop them contacting you, eg taking your children yourself to school so they don't take them off the bus.

After a while of this, send them one recorded delivery note (typed envelope) telling them not to contact you or the children. Yes, they controlled you and abused you as a family and as individuals - rather badly.

If you send them that note, then you can go to the police under the Harassment law. There's a poster here, DisgracetotheYchromasome who knows how it works, I don't think he'd mind a pm as I've seen him offer to talk it through with other people.

Could you possibly talk to the police about this situation? Somehow, with the lengths they are willing to go to, there's something here that is giving me a sense of danger.

On a last note, they will indeed make it all out to be your fault. it's worth planning a way to deal with the rumours or criticisms that come back to you. "there's a great deal more going on than they are saying and we're taking advice from / we're on the verge of taking advice from the police. I'd rather not talk about it any more".

This -is- going to take yet more mental effort and time to sort out and it won't be quick, but I really think that recording everything and also talking to the police is pretty important here.

The biggest thing is, you have a chance now for a much, much better future and healing between you.

How are you otherwise, mampam?

DisgracetotheYChromosome* sorry

Thanks Meer I am already in contact with a friend of mine who is a policewoman. She knows all about the situation (plus she has her own narc mother so she completely gets it) and has advised us to keep any contact with the IL's via email so as to leave a footprint/paper trail of evidence.
She has advised us that if the harassment continues to write an email to them stating their behaviour and that we feel intimidated and harassed by it and telling them to stop.
She told us to treat it as a divorce type scenario but feels that at this stage if the police were to turn up on their doorstep that they would just say they
are trying to see their grandchildren and would be believed

I will however keep in mind about getting in contact with the poster on here for advice thank you.

It is worrying though Meer that something is giving you a sense of danger, I am really worried about the whole thing with regards to the DC to be honest but I just can't put my finger on it. The fact that they have all the time in the world to plot and plan isn't very comforting either.

Since moving DH and I have since realised that they must have been tampering with our post too but of course have no proof.

FIL had also been putting items onto DH's account at a local builders merchant. We only found out as his items were being delivered to our old house and they called DH's mobile to get directions!!
Funnily enough when our mail was dumped on our door step there was no invoice from the builders merchant (DH had stupidly forgotten to change the address until this had happened). To cut a long story short DH had to go and sort it out at the builders merchants where they had to call FIL to remind him to pay for the items he had (without letting on DH knew), luckily he paid for them and a notification has now been put on the account whereby staff will only let DH use it!!

I'm wondering if I need to go in to the school and talk to them about the situation and the bus journeys etc?

It's always difficult to know what to say to other people regarding what actually happened so if you don't mind I will use what you've given me as an example

To be honest so far we've had nothing but support from people and nothing negative. MIL did try to turn on a sob story to my SF. She however didn't know that I am now back in contact with him (long story after 5years NC with my mother but they have been separated for over 2 years (still NC with my mother)). MIL asked SF if he knew that MrMampam had left home? She then went on to say that we had been doing daft things and won't let them see DC's 3&4!!

I'm ok Meer. I've gone from being a nervous wreck in the final weeks of living next door to them to now being really angry. I'm angry that they have done this to us. That they dared to make out like we are using our DC as weapons against them when they have tried to fold their own son's business - doesn't that seriously affect their GC when DH can't earn any money? They have put the DC through this upheaval.
I'm angry that they can make a lot of money out of renting out our house that we spent a fortune on, that DH slogged his guts out morning, noon and night, every spare minute he had building part of that house for over a year of our lives and that he will never get that time back.
I'm angry that we are having to start all over again and it sounds silly but I'm annoyed that we've had to get rid of one of our sofa's as it won't fit in our new house and now we're going to have to get rid of the sofa that will fit to buy a corner sofa..........I guess I feel annoyed that these things have been forced upon us.

On the up side we had both forgotten how fun life could be or that life could even be happy. We have some great neighbours and have made some lovely new friends who we can call on/rely on..........something we never even felt with our own family.
We live in a beautiful, wonderful place where people pay a lot of money to live or have a holiday home here, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that we have been given and feel very lucky to be here.

I just hope that we can get through the next phase of our lives without letting others ruin it for us.

DD has just this minute told me that IL's don't stand on the roadside anymore but are always either stood in their garden(which is right next to the road) watching and waving or stood in their bedroom doing the same.

[Sigh]

really glad to hear that you have rediscovered the joy of living!

your ILs are a piece of work. (do you think you were drawn to your husband because both of you have experience of v difficult parents, perhaps? dont answer here, just posing the question! it can help if you both get the awkward family dynamics)

I'm wondering if I need to go in to the school and talk to them about the situation and the bus journeys etc?

Yes. Absolutely Yes. You don't need to lay out the whole story but let them know enough to say that GPS do NOT ever have the right to pick up the children or have contact with them.

Your ILS are entirely ruthless and there is a malice behind their actions that is quite disturbing even to read about. They aren't thinking of the long term welfare of your children at all. I suspect they see them as possessions to own, the same as they saw you and Mr Mampan. The regular and limitless invasion of your home, the attempts to take over your children and your entire lives, the interference with post, the attempts to fold your husband's business, the manipulation etc are frightening. It's almost something out of a film except it's parents, not a partner. You've been under serious siege from enemies in friends' clothing. I don't think it's too strong to say that. Very glad that you've had advice from someone in the police.

The biggest thing now is to protect your children from them. How does your daughter feel about the waving thing? how do the children generally feel about them? Your ILs will probably try hard to build up their own relationship with the GC without you. I think you maybe need to prepare them in an age-appropriate way by firstly teaching them to look a little bit under the surface ... "why do you think XXX said that?" "what do you think it feels like if someone did that to you?" "do you think that YYY action was a kind thing to do, or not? why's that?" ... that sort of question scattered over the months and years can get children to think, I hope. If you come from a nice home, people often don't have the tools to see what some people can really be like under the surface.

Maybe an age-appropriate conversation will help "well, people have their own families and unfortunately, Granny and Granpa forgot that they need to treat everyone, including us and you, with politeness; to not just walk into the house, to not try to take everything over, to not take stuff from Dad and Mum (eg the builders merchants - there've been a lot lot more blurred-boundary incidents havent there!). You don't like it if we read your diary or take your favourite toys or tell you how you have to play with your friends do you? well, neither do Mum or Dad. They wouldn't stop when we asked them nicely, so we have found somewhere else to live"

The second biggest thing is to keep recording every incident you can remember + rough date, and every single incident since. The builders' merchants company is one. The feeling that they've been interfering with the post is another; can you break down exactly why you think that? The attempts to get between Mr Mampam and you are also good to record. And yes, if you can get stuff done by email or text (can you keep a copy of the texts?) that's a solid trail.

Regarding being angry about the work your husband put in - yeah I can really understnad that, specially when it means you have to look after the children and when you were so damn sick. But really - ok they won that round, but you have won overall because you are nearly free of them, and you have new lives that are enjoyable. (also, pity the poor tenants they get!). You've been through the worst of the storm. Protect your children from their influence and you'll be ok :)

regarding school, maybe make it clear that no information at all is to be given the GPs about the children.

This may be a step too far, but is there any chance they could try to pretend to be you? if so, the school needs warning of that, too, and if anything iffy comes through, they need to speak to you or Mr Mampam on the phone.

Hi mampam. I remember your previous posts. A huge well done for moving away. I know you weren't convinced that you could do it and you have done.

Keep persevering and like others have said keep a detailed record.

Back again. Dreading Christmas. Previously supportive aunt hasn't been in touch at all. Discovered that toxic sister was also involved in ex's malicious report to ss about me several years ago. Mum has barely been in touch. Dad made a couple of very late night incoherent and when coherent nasty phonecalls. Eventually told him to fuck off. Mum asked why and I told her. He then was admitted to hospital (he is ill but also has a habit of not taking meds and/or exaggerating worsening symptoms if he's not getting the attention he thinks he deserves) mum called to let me know. At this point I told her honestly that I'd never wanted back in touch with the toxic creep anyway!

Feeling guilty for situation with mum given she has had a rough year too (although partly if her own making). Last few years we have been going to hers with sis and dn's for Christmas, that won't be happening this year. Aunt still talking to dd if dd calls her. Mum has apparently asked aunt what to get dd for Christmas (also her birthday v soon) but I've heard nothing about how they're going to reach dd or if mum even going to try and see dd on her birthday. Mum hasn't been in touch with dd either.

Me and dd just for Christmas is fine but the family always made a fuss for her birthday (it being near Christmas) and now this year none of it being dd's fault her heart is breaking and I don't know what to do.

Frankly I could scream at the lot of them for excluding a child! They could certainly call her and it would not be a problem them seeing her in town without me (I wouldn't allow her to mums alone with dad around and she wouldn't want to).

I also feel guilty at not getting dn's anything for Christmas, don't know what they like now and knowing sis she'd destroy/bin anything she even suspected was from me.

What do I do? How do I make sure this isn't a miserable time for dd?

I'm also very depressed and in a lot of pain with an injury. So not the most cheerful person to be around though of course I try for dd.

Toxic parents like yours Fup more often than not become toxic as grandparents as well. They were not good parents to you and will behave similarly to your child too if given any opportunity. It will do her no favours at all for her to keep on seeing her mother so disrespected and disregarded. Your guilt is actually very much misplaced, after the way your sister has behaved I honestly would not think twice about not buying any gifts for her children either. She has never given you any due consideration whatsoever but instead chose to be herself involved in making a malicious report.

Deal with your FOG; start this long and arduous process by reading the Out of the Fog website.

It is NOT your fault your family of origin are so disordered; you did not make them this way. Their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them.

Your mother, father and sister all sound as bad as one another; I would not give any of them now a further minute of your time. At the very least I would block their means of communicating with you. Your mother has and continues to act as her H's enabler and hatchet woman; she cannot be at all relied upon either. She only called you further to pile on more pressure and guilt re your dad even after you told her to f off. Setting boundaries with these people is going to be very difficult if not impossible as they will likely ignore these. They are perhaps the sort of people who would try and buy your DDs affections as well with the view of making her feel obligated to them.

How old is DD?. Model the attitude you would like her to adopt; if you feel unsure she will sense that. Is her heart really breaking?. Do not operate from a fearful mindset. Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

Do not involve any of your family of origin in your lives from now on and spend what you can comfortably afford on the festive season. Also do not forget that its only two days out of the rest of the year after all.

and now this year none of it being dd's fault her heart is breaking and I don't know what to do

what a hard thing to deal with :(

Might it help (im not sure, just suggesting) to treat this as with other griefs when she is older? How old is she? Give her time to be cry and to be upset and to ask her questions. Be there for her. If she asks why, give an age-appropriate answer "your aunt did something very, very unkind and won't say sorry and try to make it up, so we won't see her this christmas. I'll tell you more when you are older. Now, if it is just you and me for christmas, what would you like best of all? what plans would you like to make?" .. and if she comes back with 'i just want to be with Granny, then leave it for now and distract her with something else, then ask her another time.

Dd is 15 and mature with it. She's actually adamant on my behalf that I've done nothing wrong (she knows exactly what happened) and is very clear that she never liked my sis anyway (my sis spoiled her until she had her own dc then dropped her and then when the kids were altogether any falling out was dd's fault! )

Absolutely no qualms about being NC with dad and sis.

We (dd and I) do both miss dn's though (I also worry about them as sis already scapegoating/goldening them, plus she's a chaotic mum).

Mum is more complicated as she never knew about the sa until years later (but...doesn't believe it happened, she seems to think it's some kind of false memory?!) And has obviously stayed with dad.

She didn't put it as calling me to guilt me but 'just to let you know' and is 'sad for me' not having a good relationship with dad.

But then this year the anger over her not protecting us from him has hit me too! In fact for being with him at all! (He was abusive and controlling from the beginning and she was told by friends and family, family repeatedly tried to get her away from him but she always went back). As a mother I couldn't stomach sleeping in the same bed as a man who would sa his own daughter!

Confusion anger and hurt more than fog tbh.

Dd seems to know/understand it'll just be us for Christmas but admitted she told aunt that she's hurt gran hasn't been in touch about birthday.

I've blocked as much as I can, can't block on landline. Have caller id though so if its their number I don't answer, but just the phone ringing is stressful when I know its them.

I've been on fog site before, might pop back to look at the stuff on surviving going NC.

Thanks for replies this thread is a haven

FUP,

re your comment:-
"We (dd and I) do both miss dn's though (I also worry about them as sis already scapegoating/goldening them, plus she's a chaotic mum)".

When was the last time you saw dn's?.

Your sister has likely been doing that for years as well; she is very much a product of her own upbringing. This is what is meant when people write that toxic dysfunction within families can go down the generations. If there is no relationship with the DN's anyway because of your sister then the best thing you can both do is to protect yourselves from that part of your family of origin's overall dysfunction. Its not your fault there is no relationship.

Out of all your family of origin you are the most balanced. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles: I would also think your role within that was and remains one of scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

Your mother has played the usual sort of roles associated with such dysfunctional spouses; the role of an enabler being a primary one. She has also not readily believed you either when it has come to her H's sexual abuse. She has stayed for her own selfish reasons; ones of self interest mainly and she has chosen to believe him for her own reasons as well. She has utterly failed you as a parent like your dad has done.

Last saw dn's just after Easter.

Yes she's been doing it for years. Dn1 is GC, dn2 is scapegoat.

I was mum's scapegoat but up to a certain age dads GC (ulterior motives obviously) but sis was vice versa.

Agree re mum but hard to ignore the fact she was a victim too. Although one of the reasons the anger hit this year was she let slip one of the reasons she stayed was money. I've never had a lot financially and I don't consider it or material things important beyond what is necessary to live a life. She's loathe to miss out on his work pension which she'll get when he dies, also because all major assets in his name. But she always worked full time in jobs that paid enough to live on (just not enough for her to be happy with. Dads job paid well and so will/does his pension).

mampam when I reread my last post, I don't think I put the possible explanation to the children very well. Was hoping for the neutral and factual approach with just enough in to help them realise that some behaviour isn't okay. But what came out was not as neutral as I hoped.

Mampam I'm so glad you've managed to get away at least from them being right on top of you. Definitely agree you should speak to the school, firstly about safety but also to make school aware that the DC are coming out of a traumatic situation and may be acting out a bit, seem withdrawn etc.

Keep logging all the harassment because I get the impression you will need to go for legal action with them. The builder's merchants is actually fraud (since FIL pretended to be someone else) so maybe worth talking to your police officer friend about reporting this right away?

If you have people asking you about it, I would personally keep it totally factual and spare nothing: "They are very abusive people who tried to ruin my DH's business and evicted us and our children from our home because they wanted DH to divorce me." I can't imagine anyone having any further questions after that!

FUP
I was mum's scapegoat but up to a certain age dads GC (ulterior motives obviously) but sis was vice versa... Agree re mum but hard to ignore the fact she was a victim too. Although one of the reasons the anger hit this year was she let slip one of the reasons she stayed was money.

This is incredibly similar to what happened in my upbringing: dad's favourite, mum's scapegoat, dad starts molesting me. Sister other way around.

I had pretty much buried the fact that mum stayed because she liked the lifestyle, even though she knew what was happening. 2 years ago I moved back to the area where I grew up and a lot of memories and feelings started surfacing. Not stuff that I'd forgotten, just things I had drawn a veil over because it was too painful to accept that my mum had basically sacrificed me to my dad so she could stay living in her nice house.

I have now gone fully NC with her (been NC with dad for 25+ years) and it's a hell of a relief. My DS is better off without her in his life as she is also horribly critical of and rude to him.

I had my first counselling session the other day about my childhood. I have a narcissistic mother and My father enables her. My sister is very much the golden child and My brother also has narcissistic tendencies. It opened my eyes when I told her about one summer, we were fighting as children do, due to boredom. My mother could not handle or cope with this so phoned SS who arranged for me and my brother to go to a respite home, which was used as punisheent. My counsellor was sat there looking . It then hit me how much I had normalised this. She also asked if Iwanted a relationship with my parents, but atm I'm not sure. It all depends on how much they respect the boundaries I set but I think I will probably end up going NC. .

Pocketsaviour that's the first time I've ever heard of anyone having the same experience as me in terms of somehow being both scapegoat and golden child. I know we're supposed to not say this here but my experience with my dad was 'not that bad' as there were only a few minor incidents before I realised what was happening and then I protected myself. (Wouldn't be alone with him, barricaded my room at night and slept with a knife under my pillow) so I kinda feel a lot of times that my experience isn't valid in terms of molestation/sa. But its hard to always have to give the details every time it comes up.

It would also be disingenuous to simply say sis was GC. With dad she could do nothing right.

I was NC with dad for 10 years at one point (partly as I couldn't stomach the thought of him near dd). I was persuaded at a time when I was vulnerable to get back in contact ('just speak to him on the phone you don't have to see him' 'just come to the house you don't have to see him' etc) until I was exactly where I didn't want to be listening to his excuses, telling me what a shit daughter I am etc. No more!

So difficult with mum as I've ended up living in a very small town with several relatives also living nearby. They know what dad did but won't believe it (even though my understanding is that my grandad - who was lovely to me and other grandkids - was the same when they were growing up - as in violent alcoholic. I've not been told of any sa but 2 of my aunts have anxiety. Truth is I just don't know.) They certainky all left home asap! Also my grandma (again great as a grandma) was strict I know when they were growing up. They're both gone now but they're talked about as if they were saints. Denial is powerful stuff.

Mum didn't have any of this growing up but mum and dad did both grow up in very rough areas and with major poverty.

I have to say my mum is great with dd and never criticises me to her. (I think partly as she knows dd would tell me and I would definitely go NC then). That's partly why I'm struggling with Christmas.

Just talked to dd about what she wants to do at Christmas. She wants gran to come over at some stage during the day if she wants to/can. I'm OK with that but don't think it will happen.

Her birthday she has plans with friends the day before and we're thinking what else to do on the day.

mampam your situation is horrendous. I agree I think getting some support from the police would be a good idea.

Watchatalltimes so sorry for what you've been through. Counselling is tough.

Anyone else on here think ss/teachers etc hell the general public! could do with maybe some guidance/training in spotting toxic families? I know its discussed a lot on mn but certainly plenty of my friends don't understand that not every family is happy or healthy even if there isn't obvious abuse.

Excepting those who've been through it of course. I have a couple of friends who are NC with parents but its usually nrps where the parents have split and the nrp is a shit parent who barely if ever bothers with their kids (not always dads).

I know I certainly don't assume everyone gets along with their families no matter what and have therefore been on several occasions the first person someone's confided in about neglect/abuse they've experienced.

I must admit I also get kinda bolshy with people who give it 'family is all you have' 'but she's your sister, that's family' etc either in real life or on fb.

FUP don't let anyone tell you, or tell yourself, that you're not a "real" survivor of SA. A single incident can be enough to bring on PTSD.

Have you ever read Alice Miller's work, particularly her work around sexual abuse within the family? She has some really eye-opening things to say about denial, especially when the abuse is, as you suspect, generational. The Body Never Lies and Thou Shalt Not Be Aware are the most on point with SA, although all her work is worth reading. It can be a bit hard going, but it's worth persevering.

I wonder whether the GC/Scapegoat switching dynamic is actually common with families where there is sexual abuse. Although I certainly wasn't the GC when I was younger. My dad shared out the punches and curses fairly equally, up until I grew tits

Pocketsaviour thank you

I do believe my experiences have caused my mh problems (PTSD not one of my DX).

I may look at the alice miller books after Christmas. Thank you for the recommendations.

Interesting that the SG/GC switching could be a part of sa. I remember watching an episode of cracker where the culprit was the younger sister of a victim of sa. That was the first time I started to think maybe I didn't 'imagine it' or exaggerate a misunderstanding or encourage him because a large reason why I thought this was my sister saying he'd never touched her. Cracker (yes a fictional character but I verified after seeing this), explained that it's common for siblings who weren't molested to feel jealous, ignored, rejected, less attractive. Also that it's a myth that abusers abuse all the children. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. They're skilled at figuring out which they think are more susceptible/less likely to talk. My sister would definitely have reported immediately. And one of the things we feel invalidates our feelings is not reporting immediately.

However, I did make sure he was never alone with any other girls.

My mum used to do that with my brother, tell him she was going to ask for him to be taken into care cos he "was such an awful child" that she couldn't hope with. Or she'd drive off in the car during a row when he was a teen and say it would be his fault if she didn't come back/had an accident or imply she might not come back.
Sounds awful written down. Just remembered that, but like you say, it gets normalised in your childhood when you don't know different. And you feel it's your fault, when it's your PARENT who tells you stuff like that.

FUP I remember that episode!! I can't remember what the girl did, was she sending threatening letters to the older sister or something like that? I just remember her being in the interview room and breaking down. I was watching it with my then boyfriend (who was a complete waste of space) and he said "Wow. Do you think your little sister feels like that?"

I said "I'll let you know if she tries to murder me"

Good the normalisation can be the worst sometimes, because it sneaks up on you unexpectedly, and often when you're with other people.

After I had surgery earlier this year a couple of colleagues were asking me if the pain was bad afterwards and I said "No it wasn't too bad, it was just for a couple of days like, you know when someone's booted you in the belly quite hard? Like that" And they both looked at me and said "Erm, no I don't know what that's like..."

God that's awful

I had a moment like that (but not as horrible as yours) when MIL was here and then when she left DH was wondering if she was annoyed about what they'd been talking about (what day to take her to buy something) but he decided she probably wasn't and did nothing about it and we saw her the next day and all was fine. If it had been me with my mum:
a) it would have been VERY clear she was offended
b) I would have gone running after her (phoning, messaging, etc) to desperately make peace
c) it would probably have spiralled into something ENORMOUS
d) it would have totally taken up all headspace in my brain for DAYS.
Seeing DH and his mum interact I had one of those ligthbulb moments when I realised my mum's a fucking weirdo.