"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi there long time lurker. Having a huge wobble at the moment, lots of emotional flashbacks. Any conflict with my partner, no matter how trivial puts me in a fight or flight response. Waiting for edmr appointments. That's about it really. Sorry to bother everyone who is going through so much

Also young kids and the can your mother help question gets me in the chest everytime... I asked her to help a few weekends ago as partner couldn't walk and I had the norovirus, she said she was going to watch a film.

toomuchtooold and Dameshazaba totally with you on the 'can your mother help' thing. Being on my own with a newborn baby and partner entirely absent, but just down the road from family - everyone just assumed my mum 'must' be helping, especially as I (stupidly, with hindsight) moved closer and away from everyone else I knew at her suggestion. In reality, was begging local services to send someone, anyone, to help. Mother was sat in the pub at the end of my road for 3/4 hours (telling everyone what a great, doting nan she is of course - and what an awful, difficult daughter she has). Then even a volunteer from Homestart didn't get it and asked 'but why doesn't your mother come and help, she just lives down the road?' at half hour intervals until I couldn't take it anymore. It hurt so much to say 'I don't know.. I can't tell you.. um..' and trail off. What is the explanation really? I find that if you try to explain to someone that your parent is a narcissist they tend to look at you in a less favourable and disbelieving way. After 2 years I've never been out of the house after tea as she won't babysit, reason given is it would mean staying up an hour later than usual. I don't what normal looks like and am sure things could be worse so try to be grateful for what I do have (my gorgeous daughter), but battle rage/depression at intervals.

I'm going to jump right in - been wanting to for months...years!

The mum helping thing...gets me too. My sympathies .

My mum died when I was little, so I should be used to it - right? Well, yes, I was - it was, and still is, sad not to have my mother around for all those moments but it is MIL/FIL who brings me here. Not the fact that my mum died young and my dad was violent and neglectful at times.

MIL (and FIL) live a few minutes drive from us/easy walk. DH warned me that when our first DC was born they would be completely OTT with helping because they were with SIL, who lives two hours away, when her children were born. They went for days at a time, cooking, helping with feeds, cleaning...even after SIL stopped them visiting for the first week because she just wanted it to her & BIL with their DC. FIL told me that their MIL stayed with them and did all of the above when their children were born.

You probably know what is coming but it didn't turn out that way at all. They would visit and I would run round making the tea, giving them food etc. They didn't even take their mugs back to the kitchen. We invited them round for loads of meals in the first couple of years (which they always seemed to enjoy and MIL used to comment how lovely it was not having to cook (or clean up!)...umm...I wouldn't know!) and were only invited back once a year. They helped for the first time when DD was 6 weeks old by taking her for a 20 min walk whilst I did some housework then returned to eat the lunch I had cooked them. They had managed to get a puncture in the pram wheel - FIL asked if I had a puncture repair kit - I assumed he was offering to mend it...nope (DH was away on business and I was so knackered that the thought of mending a puncture...). Just left it like that for me to deal with. Nice.

If we asked MIL (FIL was still working pt then) to babysit for a short period of time (1 hr) she would say yes but then be really difficult and I am pretty convinced broke/damaged things on purpose (she managed to burn our fridge door with the gas hob - no idea what she was even using it for at 10.30 am and when asked she just ignored us - and it would have been impossible to do it with out actually trying...). We are talking babysitting once every couple of months here btw.

I've got a load of other stories but that will do for now! I know these probably sound pretty pathetic but I can't begin to tell you the damage that the cumulative effect of many, many similar tales have had.

We asked them to look after DS for 15 mins once and then walk him to the bus stop for school (primary age) - would have been 30 mins out of the house for them in the morning max. They said no because MIL would be tired as she wouldn't be in until 10 pm the night before (because she had to pick up FIL from a function a 5 min drive away). A week later FIL asked DH to pick him up from a train station 1 hour away from our home, during the working week, at midnight (because he had been looking after SIL's children for THREE days and didn't want to stay over an extra night and come back in the morning) and MIL doesn't like driving in the dark (neither does DH!) so couldn't do it.

The DH confessed it has always been like this - SIL was the golden child and he...wasn't. At this stage he blamed SIL for all of this - the fact that she took the piss with all the help she demanded with her children and now his parents are wise to it so are being difficult with us (who ask for a small amount of help very occasionally!). It didn't help that the PIL were playing the victim card with her - they are pensioners and when they go up to help SIL with her childcare they have to pay for their own train fare...so DH wades in with SIL and tells her to stop taking advantage of them and pay their train fare. Triangulation I believe it is called now - looking back.

I've build my boundaries over the years (well over a decade now) but I'm still not at peace with this. I am being wound up by things that haven't even happened...yet! I guess I am just so disappointed that my 'second chance' at a normal family set up didn't happen and worse I have let it affect my own little family. I wish I could go back in time and tell myself that I am not imagining things- MIL is a covert narcissist and FIL is an enabler (well, they may not be but it does rather seem that way sometimes).

Sorry - this is much longer than I was hoping it would be.

Sorry to barge in but need a quick rant to restore my sanity

Have been NC with my parents since May

Mine are in the 'not really abuse' category but M has ticked numerous boxes on the NPD lists and D is her enabler

Ive made sure DCs (7 and 4) phone their grandparents from time to time more for benefit of DCs than parents as have found it stopped the (surprisingly minimal) questions from DCs

Recently got caught up in in the season of goodwill and emailed to offer to visit at Christmas (a 5 hr round trip)

The reply ('D'M) was that they are going on holiday and by the way my
Dad is ill but my mum has no daughter that she can talk to about it

Seriously????

My dad is ill but no further explanation

And the worst part of him being ill is that SHE can't talk to me about it? (Strange as my phone does actually accept incoming calls)

Is she using a NPD book as some sort of training manual ????

I just want to give up on them both altogether but I'm tired of having to answer the "how will you feel if something happens to them" question from people in real life

Sorry

Rant over

You are not low contact if there are occasional phone calls made by your children. No contact is precisely that, low contact often leads to no contact anyway. Would urge you to take that next step.

Their behaviour is not untypical from a narcissist and her enabler i.e. your dad. He being weak needs someone to idolise, you have likely never been able to rely upon him at all either. He has basically pandered to her and has also facilitated the abuse of you. He is her sidekick, making sure that she is kept happy no matter the cost to the children.

Your children are being used as their narcissistic supply and are too young to realise that they are being manipulated; you need to immediately stop the phone calls to their toxic grandparents. At least your parents gave you an "out" by telling you that they are going on holiday, you dodged a bullet there.

I think SM you have been well trained by these people and continue to act as such, that is also why you sent such an e-mail to them in the first place. You perhaps feel on some innate level hope that after a period of low contact they will behave better now. Not a chance and they will further find ways of hurting you all if you facilitate any contact whatsoever.
Such people can and do use their grandchildren, you perhaps are finding already that they have a favourite amongst the children or at the very least overvalue or undervalue the relationship. Again this is typical of narcissists.

It is also NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

I would also think your dad is not all that ill either even if he is ill (you have no proper way of finding out), its just being used to tug at your heartstrings. Toxic people just love using (previously unknown) health problems as its a good tactic to bring their adult children back into line. Her response re having no daughter to talk to about it is just plain nasty and designed to hurt you.

Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt. FWIW I did not think they would really question it at all.

Give up on them both now because they are truly masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Many people in RL simply do not get the abnormal and toxic dynamics regarding such narcissistic people unless they have had narc parents or relations themselves. Bat off such intrusive questions firmly.

BTW my late narc FIL died around a year ago now and no-one outside the family has ever asked me whether I miss him or not (I do not actually).

Protect yourself and your children from them SM, you will indeed thank yourself for jettisoning them altogether. Stop all the albeit communications and enjoy Christmas at home with your children.

Eternal

I find that if you try to explain to someone that your parent is a narcissist they tend to look at you in a less favourable and disbelieving way.

Yep, I've found that. If you're vague and say "I don't get along with my mother" then they think there's something wrong with you, and if you're specific about the abuse they think you're an attention seeker. Honestly I'm bisexual and I've found it tons easier to come out as bi than to come out as an adult child of a dysfunctional family. And then the feeling of blame is compounded because of your own experiences as a small child where you would have sought to blame yourself when your mother was abusive or neglectful. It's just the gift that keeps on giving.

Deleteplay, I can really identify with a few things in your story. The thing about breaking things - my mother came to visit us three times in a row and was on her so-called best behaviour but one time when we were out she sat in the house while a summer storm came in through all our open windows, then once she offered to clean our fridge and then after she left I was opening the fridge and one of the shelves holding a 2l milk carton fell to the floor, just missing DD1 - looked at the shelf and the one side of it had been broken and it had been put back on precariously balanced, then one time again we were out and she offered to clean up and later I found that two little ant poison traps had been moved from way behind the shoe rack in the hall to the kids' toy box - there was ant poison
all over their toys and I had to throw most of it out. Each time it's something that could conceivably be a mistake but the fact that it's repeated, and that I bloody know her and that she hates us and only ever came to see the grandkids, tells me otherwise.

Also about hoping you might have married into a normal family... I suspect that those of us who grew up in abusive/dysfunctional families find each other. DH's dad is a narcissist, not as sick or as nasty as my mum but you can see the effect on them all and my BIL is not in contact with the family. (When I started reading about narcissism I started seeing them all over my life and for a while I thought it was "if you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail" but actually no, I think us survivors recognise each other and also sadly, perpetrators can recognise ex-victims.)

Somermummy1
I'm tired of having to answer the "how will you feel if something happens to them" question from people in real life

For 5 years (after my dad died) I stayed in contact with my mum "so I wouldn't have to feel guilty when she died". I'm full NC now, only since a couple of months, but it's just a relief really. I was worried about the influence of my mother on my children - either she'd manage to stay on her best behaviour, get them on side and then use them to hurt me, or she'd try to fuck them up too. Already at 3 she was starting to say things in front of them like "DD2 is everyone's favourite but I've already had a dark haired one [me and DD2] so DD1 is MY favourite." Oh fuck off mother.

Think about your own deathbed maybe. Will you be happy that you spent all that time and effort on people who hurt you? Or will you think it a waste, and wish you'd spent your effort on people who love you and people who bring you joy?

DameS

re your comment:-

"Also young kids and the can your mother help question gets me in the chest everytime... I asked her to help a few weekends ago as partner couldn't walk and I had the norovirus, she said she was going to watch a film".

This struck a chord with me. I have had similar happen to me as well and more than once over many years. My disinterested mum and dad would never have helped in such circumstances either and they did not, she would not have wanted to catch that virus. Norovirus is awful I grant you but she did not even want to put a newspaper through my letterbox.

They did not want to come to any of his school sports days or nativity plays at Christmas and never actually attended anything. I used to stand there and watch on my own, practically everyone around me had a family member with them.

I stopped asking them in the end and I learnt too that it was not my issue but theirs. (They favour my childfree single brother and run around after him). Now my son is a lot older and is not all that bothered with them. My dad phoned me one time to say that my mother missed me. They perhaps wonder why I do not see them very often!.

somer .... 'how will you feel if he dies" Other people are the problem not you.

A bit tangentially but it might help - when it came to inviting my biol. mother and my adoptive father to my wedding, I thought it over very carefully. Both of them are nightmares in very different ways. The mental question I posed myself was "will i regret it in 15 years' time if I don't invite them". I guessed that the answer would be No, and so far (8 years on) I've been proved right. Mother died shortly afterwards and frankly (you can only say this here on Stately Homes) it was a relief.

I think you have to do what is right for YOU here, not what other people think you should do.

Someone came up with a great answer on Mumsnet to the 'but he's your father!" line. Yes, he's my father, but not everyone grows up to be a nice person. Those unpleasant people sometimes have children, and then those children have parents who aren't very nice.

It's a lonely place when you don't have the net work of family, not only for yourself but because so many people don't have any understanding of what it is like. It's isolating. But you do have to do what is right for you.

The point I was dozily trying to make was that if you go NC with him, do you think that in 10 - 15 years' time you will regret it or be glad of it? Never mind what -other- people say

Somer

I have also found this excerpt helpful too:-

emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/

Funnily enough I very rarely get anyone giving me the "but she's your mum!" line.

Possibly this is because I look so scary that nobody dares I knew that Bitchy Resting Face would come in useful some day...

A useful response I've given in the past though (before I cultivated my current terrifying face) was "Real mothers/fathers don't abuse their children." Then just say nothing for a few seconds, then change the subject.

Just remembered something my mum said a couple of years ago while I was still with my ex. She appeared to like my ex, certainly she approved of him as he earned more money than I did (her primary approval decider.)

We were talking vaguely about weddings - I think it might have been around the time a cousin was getting married. And my mum said "If you do decide to marry Ex, you won't expect me to be there, will you? After all, I did go to your first one. And look how that turned out." My first husband died

OK he didn't die until after we'd separated. But my god, she never let me forget how much she disliked my son's dad. Nor to pile on with comments like "Well, your son does take after his dad. And let's face it, he was pretty thick."

toomuchtoocold - Takes a while to see the pattern. Those were pretty classic deniable acts or easy to blame on someone else. The ant poison is really shocking - I guess she thought she could blame it on the children if challenged.

MIL also broke a kitchen tile (nothing was mentioned to us) but it must have been her. They didn't break when things fell on them (had plenty of proof to that!) so pretty sure it was deliberate. Even if it wasn't deliberate surely you would apologise?

Unsurprisingly, the completely unspoken rule is that we don't leave her unsupervised in our home. So, it has been a long time since there was a breakage. She did mange to get an entire cup of tea thrown up our full length cream curtains a while back though (split moment when no one was looking I guess!) - apologised but look disappointed that I managed to get the stain out straight away with no fuss or looking bothered about it.

Off to read more of everyone else's story now as I just jumped straight in.

jeeze pocket

just typed out a long thing but gonna cut it short, just to say you, pocket, are an amazing woman.

You are all wonderful human beings
And if I wasn't on my phone i would say thank you far more eloquently and answer all your brilliant posts separately

But instead I will just say that I am truly thankful that I found the SH thread and can have the occasional sanity check on here with people who genuinely understand

Attila - by the way - that article is truly brilliant. The analogy to whether we'd be expected to put up with the same from a partner and keep going back for more is spot on!

I've tried - again. I can live with that. If my dad is genuinely Ill then he should be the one putting his house in order not me

And I'm not going to try anymore. The goalposts shift every time

The DCs are young enough to be easily distracted and will be just fine without them. Just like I will be.

Blimey - that was supposed to be a short post !

Thank you all SO much

Hi, can I ask for some thoughts? I've been NC with my family for a couple of years, I posted on the main relationships board recently and was told I was needy and childish which was a bit unexpected, but here I am again...

My sister has emailed to ask if we could meet up. I don't particularly want to. The back story is that - in my perception anyway - she was the Golden Child and I was the scapegoat. She's recieved significant financial support from our parents and I haven't.

Not being in touch saves me from feeling angry, jealous and inadequate.

Should I explain this, or just decline?

imust

has your sister ever dug the boot in, or harmed you in a way that was not directly or indirectly down to your parents?

Do you think that if you meet something positive will come out of it, or will you be the whipping boy again?

In principle, I'd say follow your own wishes.

But if she was reasonably okay with you, then if you can I think it would be an idea to ask why she wants to meet and what she thinks will come out of, and then decide. You're also entitled to ask that certain subjects are offlimits and to keep to that.

If you think something positive might come out of it in the long run then it might be good.

But it depends on you.

If you are not ready, then a neutralish answer might be that at the moment you're doing a lot of thinking about family stuff and struggling, that you're not sure you're ready to meet but if she would like to, you'll be in contact in the future when you feel more ready.

Not closing the door completely can only be a good thing ... as long as she is not toxic. This way you're saying Yes or No, but not cutting her down.

If she's going ot deliberately drag you down then the answer is definitely No.

I would be wondering why your sister has chosen to e-mail you now. She wants something from you and this has not been done I would think out of any real concern for your well being. Sounds like she is doing a behaviour known as "hoovering".

TBH I would not bother replying to it; no good will likely come to you from at all doing so. You've already stated that you do not want to meet up with her anyway so that's more than enough for me. Would actually now consider blocking her e-mail address from your inbox.

Re your username. that is the first line of one of my favourite poems!.

She's never physically harmed me, but she has taken family things and kept them or sold them herself, which upset me a great deal. Another mumsnetter once wrote of "the family hoard" which one member of her family appointed herself the keeper of, and that rang a bell for me. It's about who's in the family and who's out of it.

attilla, I'm glad you love it too! It speaks to me of freedom and peace.

Does she know that you were very upset?

I don't know. I told her that I didn't agree she had the right to sell them but it didn't change her decision.

I suspect there's a huge amount of past history here that maybe needs a lot of unravelling.

personally I think your best bet is to ask her why she wants to meet and what she wants to talk about.

If she answers and you still feel you don't want to meet, then don't. Your wishes matter here. Maybe leave the door open for future though. If you feel you are (warily) willing to meet, then give it a go. You can always cut it short and leave if it gets tricky.

If she doesn't answer, then go with what you want, don't meet her.

Reading these suggestions I just feel myself resisting the idea of replying! Her message said that she missed me and hearing about my travelling. I've been through some hefty challenges to get to where I am now, but it feels like I'm just expected to be the entertainment.

I'm completely at peace with never seeing her again.