"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

meery it depends on what variety of toxic she is but yes I think you were right not to ring her and talk to her immediately. Apart from anything else, it's hard to have a conversation that means anything with someone who is drunk / hungover. Any promises made arent very likely to be kept.

About what do to longer term, are you reasonably content with the status quo of a call every few weeks and seeing her twice a year? (from what you said about it being very much a duty call, I imagine so?)

Would she be capable of a proper genuine conversation? If the answer is probably not, then don't even try. That sort of conversation can open the most god-awful can of worms and leave you very bruised.

If you decide you do want to speak about this - prepare yourself for it probably being useless. Perhaps refer to it in one of the more normal occasional chats. But it could be opening a very difficult and explosive subject.

If you decide to ignore it and she asks about the call, you could say that you couldn't work out what she was saying as she wasn't speaking clearly.

Meer thank you for the validation, sometimes I have a wobble and think it’s just me and I must be wrong/at fault. As for brand of toxic, not as bad as for some of you here but still enough for me to believe I benefit from the distance (emotionally and physically) between us. The way I would describe her is matriarchal, controlling (and hating it when not in control), yet never taking responsibility and always being right.

We last visited her in summer and I spent the entire time on eggshells, and policing her time with our DC to protect them from any poisonous comments that she wished to make. An example, I said that we would stay with her until the Wednesday and she then starts on the DC “I don’t know why Mummy wants to go then, you want to stay with Granny don’t you”. Another day DH, DC and I had been out in the morning and came back to her steaming drunk. She began slagging DH and I off to the DC (for about 20 years worth of misdemeanours), we could not get them out of the house quick enough. When all had cooled down she had a go at me for “sulking” just because she “told me off” i.e. to shut up when I tried to stop her ranting.

So that is a bit of my story. I like your idea of saying I couldn’t make out what she was saying (partly true!) and think that if she does challenge me on not calling I will say that I have no issue/problem with it and move swiftly along to talk about the weather. If she persists I will simply repeat. Don’t feed the drama.

I have just discovered these threads and spent a couple of hours reading through them last night. I have never met anyone who has the same experiences as me. I just can't believe what I am reading, it is just everything that I have faced!

I don't live near my parents anymore, however both my half sisters have not talked to them or seen them for more 10years. I have never been able to do that. Since I moved, we argue less. I have been in and out of counselling and truth is, I am in a good place now. Through my own studies, I have learnt to be tolerant of them and accepting of diversity to an extent. It is a cycle, my Grandmother apparently treated my Mother badly. I have also worked in Mental Health, but had to leave as I just felt I overidentified with young women who has similiar issues and I also felt awkward about workong with women my Mother's age who had emotional unstable personality disorder.

Anyway, I think a lot of my trauma is being brought to the fore as I am pregnant with my first baby. I have al these hopes & dreams & I am making damn sure he will never experience what I did as a child. My issue is that although I have learned not to engage with my Mother's ways anymore, recently she has started to talk about my childhood. This "loving" side is a fairly new thing. She has completely rewritten history. Apart from the whole "you were a very badly behaved, cheeky child" she believes she was the best Mother ever. I mean she has no remorse at the domestic violence I witnessed, the beatings, the emotional abuse, the inappropriate things I was exposed to, affairs etc. I am not even sure if she thinks this is wrong.

Sorry this probably is long & rambling! Basically we are visiting at Christmas & I know there will be tales of me as a child. All negative, all glowing for them. I don't know how to respond! I know there is no point as they will deny & rewrite history. Or she will get hysterical and I mean hysterical. But also, when they say I was spoiled, I don't want to just say nothing. I want to scream
"I didn't even have a bed!!!! How was I spoiled?!" Has anyone been through similar? How do you handle this? I just think I need some guidance now as to how to navigate this relationship now I have a baby on the way. I suspect it will end in no contact.

Pebbles,

Congratulations on your pregnancy.

I would cancel your visit to them at Christmas; no good will come of it whatsoever. I would consider going no contact now or at the very least if you cannot do that maintain a low contact position (and still not visit them). What are your own boundaries like with regards to your mother in any case?.

Re your comment:-
"Through my own studies, I have learnt to be tolerant of them and accepting of diversity to an extent"

They were and have been intolerant of you though, they have shown you no consideration whatsoever. Your mother like practically all toxic parents continues to rewrite history to make her own self look good in the process.

Your mother was not a good parent to you and such toxic crap like this indeed does go down the generations. To your credit you are not planning on recreating the same toxic and messed up dynamic as both your mother and her mother did.

Your mother will likely be a poor example of a grandparent to your child and I would keep your child well away from your mother in particular. Reading the resources too at the start of this thread if you have not already done so may help you too. Toxic Parents is a good starting point.

Thank you for your advice. You are right, distance has been good in the past. My boundaries have become stronger due to this. I used to run around doing everything and basically in a way beg for her love. I know she will probably be a poor Grandparent, it is this kind of truth I just need to accept. I will have a look at some resources now. I just want to ensure I have an action plan of what I am actually going to do and be strong with it, even if that is no contact. We were hoping to move back to the country where I am originally from once baby is here. We would live 20-30 miles away & they do not drive that far. The reason is due to my friends etc being there & just I miss the way of life. But I suppose I am now double thinking this due to the fact distance has been so good for me. Lots of decisions to be made now, because I just never want to ever be a parent like her, that is my biggest worry. I don't my child to ever know that kind of parenting either, even if it is from a Grandparent.

meery im a little short on time but from everything you have written, you are quite right in keeping your distance. One thing you said (among others) leaped out - that she slagged you off in front of your children and then accepted no responsibility at all. This can't be allowed to go on.

Also, you -are- entitled to keep distance if that is what you need for your OWN mental well being, your husband's and most definitely your children's.

pebbles i want to write more but don't have much time. My biol. mother was diagnosed with severe BPD / emotionally unstable disorder. She didn't bring me up but had one hell of an influence on my life anyway, once we were reunited. Ill try to write more, but a lot of what you say is very familiar.

In short: congrats on your preg. It's a time when a lot of family stuff comes up. Regarding your Mother, if she has EUD/BPD at her age she's not going to change as Im sure you know; BPD had a good prognosis but by a certain point (mid 30's? mid-40's?) unless they themselves are willing to work on themselves, things won't improve.

You're absolutely entitled to get sick to the craw of her distortions and glowing-parent bullshit, and to walk away when she starts it. You can go back and walk away again, you can go LC (least drama really) or go NC

If she has BPD though, she might play merry hell when your baby is here. You'll need to plan well ahead of time how to deal with her possible behaviour - doting (but slightly offkey) GM; trying to take over; loving then explosive and full of hate; whichever way she might go.

because I just never want to ever be a parent like her, that is my biggest worry. I don't my child to ever know that kind of parenting either, even if it is from a Grandparent.

If you grew up with a parent with BPD then it will have left scars. But it absolutely does not mean you are fated to go the same way.

if you suspect that you might have picked up / inherited some traits, then the fact that you WANT to do better is actually a very major factor in doing better.

Yes you hit the nail on the head onceameer. Basically I am scared of her all of a sudden becoming disinterested in my child. Which I know she would do, to control & manipulate. She does such things with a slight smile coming across her face. She def has EUPD, I know she will never change. I know she will never see what she has done. I have accepted this and have learned not to bite when she tries to start. When she goes hysterical, I end the conversation and we don't speak for a few weeks. However, the baby thing is making her think about my "idylic" childhood and she relays this to me. Very hard not to bite. Especially when she starts to lament her bad childhood and terrible Mother The irony is laughable at times! I am glad I found this thread however as it has been so so helpful.

I don't know how you bite your tongue actually. It really really pissed me off when my mother started going on about how no one had ever suffered like her, been betrayed like her, let down like her ... fuck's sake it still annoys me. She had two children to bring up and all she cared about was herself and how much light she'd brought to everyone's life ... Riiiight. She really did have a very hard life indeed, but the world's most suffering human being? I don't think so. She certainly ensured she shared the suffering around within her family, if so. Both my half-sisters had a very bad time of it.

In dealing with her, in the end I realised that she had no real rationality at all and that just because her mouth was moving, didnt mean that you could communicate with her. Also, yeah, the EUPD hysteria and tantrums .. terrifying. I would never have left my baby alone with her for more than a few minutes on a very good day and planned to keep visits short and infrequent.

I think that from the beginning it might be an idea to ensure that your child is kept distant from her. Which is sad to say but a highly manipulative person with EUPD can be highly poisonous for a young mind. your comment about her 'slight smile' makes me wonder if there is some malice in her too, which would be an even stronger indicator to ensure that there is no strong bond between your daughter and her. She'll kick off and spread terrible stories about how cruel you are and how wicked to your poor saintly kind mother, but you know the truth.

If she's ever physically violent then it would probably be best to keep her entirely from your child :/ especially if her behaviour is deteriorating with age.

the worst of it was that this violent, emotionally utterly abusive woman and physically abusive woman used to say to me over and over "you're just like me" ... ugh. Even though I didnt meet her til I was 18 that sunk into my soul.

I've worked very, very hard and will continue to work to ensure I'm as least like her as I can be.

Omg, it just all sounds so similar! I honestly haven't met others who have gone through such similar experiences. It is comforting to know it isn't actually me, the "nasty, hateful, child" that was drilled into me. My Mum says that too, "you are just like me" I just reply " I really am not, really not." Then end it. I find it easier now to bite my tongue as I know she hates it. There is malice, she was physically abusive as was my Dad. Also domestic abuse, affairs etc all I was privvy too as it was all conducted in front of me.

This chat has reinforced the need to have distance, definitely. I suppose I hold on to the just in case scenario, you know where she finally realises she is the problem! I know it will never happen but how a person be so blind?

Aggghhh, my mum used to do that too "You're like me, aren't you, you're much more like me than your sister is."

Except if I said something she didn't like, in which case I'd get "You're so like your dad sometimes, pocket. Arrogant and bullying." Given he molested me, this is an even lower blow than it appears on the surface.

Meery I would do everything possible to ensure your DC never meet your M again. She clearly has a drink problem and for this reason alone she should be kept away. did she drink heavily when you were a child? Have you looked into resources for ACOA (adult children fo alcoholics) if so?

Pebbles congrats on your pregnancy. I really think you should do everything possible to minimise contact between your mum and your DC. It sounds like you are prepared to go NC and I do think you will find it's the only way, eventually, even if you do go down the Lc route first. Do you have other family who might try to get involved and create problems?

Pebbles and meer I so agree with the rewriting of history part. As far as I'm concerned I was a quiet studious child who lived in awe/fear of my parents. My dc1 now gets an allowance rather than pocket money. On hearing this my dm told her " yes we did that for your mum too that's when it all went wrong" Wtf!!! My mantra is that I am not like dm, my dh loves to use that against me when we argue though. "You're just like your mother" puts me in my place every time.

I also agree that starting a family of your own is a light bulb moment. I quite happily accepted how things were until the dc came along. Now I will not.
Sorry I'm being very me me me at the mo. Pocket thanks for the acoa ref. I'll look them up.

Also domestic abuse, affairs etc all I was privvy too as it was all conducted in front of me

groan. Oh yeah.

meery you're really not being Me me me. You are allowed to tell your truth and take that space to tell it!

the "you're just like me"is the scariest of all. What if she was right? But then I stop and try to keep my feet on the ground and look at all the objective evidence that I'm doing things differently. We'll know for sure when the children are 30 I suppose wryly. But even so when I think about it and don't just sit there fearfully, I -know- that my choices and the work I've done mean that I have travelled a different route and am a different person. Long may my children benefit.

my dh loves to use that against me when we argue though. "You're just like your mother" puts me in my place every time. Get that nipped in the bud straightaway. Explain to him that actually you'd rather he not use this against you. That it hurts you deeply. Explain why, and that on that particular subject you need love, support and protection from him. It is not his job to 'put you in your place'. That's what your M does, you don't need it from your partner in life. If he continues after that, then he's not much better than her.

agreed.

You didn't sound weird at all :) Do you often find you second guess what you've said/written, and if you don't get a quick response you assume you've done something wrong?

(I'm asking because I do this ALL the damn time!)

I'm off out to a party. I fucking hate parties. It's my sister's partner. I can't drink at the moment so I can't even have a calming pre-outing triple double vodka and DC before having to interact with other humans. Argh.

Well, I'm back. My son called me at about 10pm - he doesn't live with me and didn't know I was out. He sounded a bit low but said "I don't want to bother you when you're having fun."

I was like "NO BOTHER SON! I'll just get my coat and ring you back in 2 minutes while I'm walking home! Bless you!"

"Oh bye everyone, got to dash, my son's not very well, byeeee" AHAHAHAHA FREEDOM!

Couldn't even see my sister so just left and sent her a text on my way out, haha I was so gleeful to have an excuse to escape. Well she got me there for near on 2 hours in the end which is bloody good going for me so she should be grateful, and she knew almost everyone there so I'm sure she wouldn't be missing me!

God it's hard being an introvert at this time of year. And TBH I've spent my entire week meeting new people at work AND having to socialise with 15-odd of them on Weds night as it was their team Xmas dinner and I had to show my face.

I'm quite happy talking to people one on one but I really struggle with groups.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2523152-Huge-row-in-our-household-Wibu?watched=1&msgid=57966353#57966353

This thread ^^ is giving me goosbumps! It's like my first thread all over again!

Bloody hell Good, that is eerily like your thread!

Game playing now. It was dc1 14th birthday yesterday. Normally dm will phone to pass birthday wishes on to dc - it's the only day she speaks eith them by phone. No call this year.

However she did call today when she knew i was at work to say that yesterday she was too busy doing chores and sorting out stuff to ring. Her loss.

Meery So she deliberately hurt your child in order to try to hurt you. Bear that in mind when you think about how to go forward with this. Someone who will use a child as a weapon, as a resource in their endless war for emotional supremacy, cannot be trusted to have contact with that child (or any other) in my view :(

Was your DC upset? Did they even notice?