"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I don't think 'most' people do. Children and adults who are conditioned to feel that they don't count for anything, people who, even as adults live in fear of their relatives are thankfully in the minorty.

Even if it applied to only person it would be too many.

What is is about, you ask. It is about a community who often have no-one to listen or understand how they feel, no-one who can give them advice about how to heal and how to function.

On this thread we have a huge family of loving, wise,and kind people who have shared our experiences. They do not

judge,
tell you, it was not that bad,
That you misunderstood
That you exaggerate
They they did their best
That there are many worse off
That most people come from dysfunctional families.

The stately homes reference is from the fact that when challenged about their dysfunctional/abusive parenting the response was usually something like "you can't possibly have been mistreated. We took you to Stately Homes!"

If you read back on the earlier threads (listed in the op) it explains the reference I think.

Steve you're an amazing man, having already been through so much and still enduring so much pain and suffering.

I want to echo what others have said here, that man assaulted you. He was a sexual predator and no way did you ask for, deserve or exacerbate what he chose to do when he sexually attacked you.

I believe that now you have opened up, and starting to shed the guilt and blame you've carried for so long, that physically and mentally you will start to heal.

Your ME may very well be your body telling you to stop coping and soldiering on, papering over the cracks and to start healing yourself by being kind to yourself

Bathsheba - the short answer is no, most people don't come from dysfunctional families.
Those of us who have, spend our entire lives coming to terms with the dysfunction and the gut churning, paralysing damage that has been wreaked.
Some of us fight back and find a way of making sense of the physical, mental, emotional and sexual abuse to which we have been subjected. Each one is it's own world of pain and sadness, with no one aspect 'less' than another. And we become successful workers, partners and parents. To the outside world, nobody would ever know.
We have all needed someone who sees us, hears us and believes us to begin to start that journey. And will probably need that support in one form or another for the rest of time.
Florentina sums it up beautifully.

I don't think most people come from dysfunctional families, no. I would hope not! Quirky, maybe but that's a different kettle of fish. But a slightly quirky but loving supportive family isn't the same as dysfunction. Is there something about your own family you'd like to talk about Bathsheba we're good at listening if there is.

Hi everyone, I'm coming up to a wobble moment , here goes.
It was my sisters birthday two weeks ago and as my 8 year old knew she made her a card which I posted. we had a text , thanking me for card had nice birthday , general text type thing which hasn't bothered me too much.
Didnt send card from me because her behaviour has made me think more wicked sister than "so glad you are my sister"

I have been low contact with my sister and parents since march 2015, I did see them over xmas at a large family party which went ok , I do have loose support from auntie and cousin who have seen what goes on and I don't want to cut myself off from all family events. I can manage them with support of my lovely OH and i do get chance to see my sisters children and my eldest daughter enjoys seeing her cousins.

Here's my wobble , its my "so called mothers" birthday this week , she rang last week to ask if they could see my 8 year old sometime , i said she was very busy ( she is , thankfully she is a secure , popular, loved child ) . But should i send a card ?

I sent my sister a card as it was made by my daughter and asked to send , should i have done that? i didnt send a card because I don't have "best wishes" for her, ditto my mum !

But not to do it opens up the attack of me being childish , isolating my children and prompting others to say - what harm can sending a card do ?

And that's my question , should i send a general birthday card ? it will keep the wolf from the door.

It definately wont be a "to my wonderful mother" and i havent found a range for narc mothers i.e thankyou for being so sh*te and the wonderfully torturous years you have given me.

Any thoughts welcome

What boundaries do you actually have in place with regards to these people?. You may well find ultimately that the current level of low contact will further have to be lowered. Setting boundaries is very hard to do anyway particularly when you are the scapegoat because you've been trained to serve them and not have any (your own needs are very much last).

"But not to do it opens up the attack of me being childish , isolating my children and prompting others to say - what harm can sending a card do"
Who would state this?. You're already pretty much isolated within your own family unit because they've made you the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. They have also not seen at first hand your mother's ill treatment of you.

I would suggest you have a look at the Daughters of Narcissistic mothers website if you have not already done so.

I would not send a card to your narcissistic mother; its not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist anyway.

Same with your sister; no more cards sent to her either. You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, family are really no different. Family also are not binding, you are keeping your daughter away from Bad Things by keeping her away from your mother and sister.

I would also actively keep your DD away from your mother because she will damage her in similar ways to how you were as a child. She will be used by your mother (and your sister who seems to be the golden child in this dynamic) as narc supply.

portinastorm

If you don't send a card maybe it does open you up to attacks of childishness etc but to be honest they'll put the worst spin possible on your actions whatever you do, because they imagine that everyone else is a game-playing narcissist like themselves.

I guess it might bring the issue of "when am I going to see my grandchild" to a head. I've read your PPs and your mother is well aware of the issues around your own childhood and your relationship with her (and all the shitty things she's done to you). You wouldn't need to offer any additional explanation to her if you told her she's not seeing your daughter outside of big family gatherings, end of story.

And it's not playing games not to send a card. Your mother would play games, she'd choose whether and what to send according to what she thought would get a response. You're trying to find a way to protect yourself and your daughter from your mother and sister's narcissistic abuse and allowing your daughter to experience a normal childhood thing of making and sending cards to family, all while trying not to ruffle your mum's feathers. That's the exact opposite of playing games.

Also, your daughter's not isolated, she's popular and busy!

Thanks for explaining, I may be back tomorrow morning, no WiFi at home.

Hi Attila and too much
I'm doing it one month at a time , believe me like many people who post here its never black and white and the abuse is very pervasive and not so easy to disassociate from _ yes I'm a usual product of narc parenting , years questioning what it is about me that has caused them to behave this way ? , many years of counselling, reassurence from others that what they think of me is not the general view, but still the doubts sometimes rear their heads.
yes my two daughters are having a great childhood, after writing this morning my eldest woke up and snuggled with me in bed , she then said :
"I have the 3 best days of my life" ,

1. when my sister came to live with us ( we adopted a toddler / baby last year and that's what I think has triggered my sister and mum, that I have been "approved")
2. every birthday I have had
3. the day i was born

this meant a lot to me as at her age I was wishing I had never been born
Im doing the best i can to not repeat my damaged childhood , but still have wobbles.
Thankyou again for taking the time to read and reply and prop this lady up x

I'm on the website of daughters of narc mothers , thankyou

wow it is so me !

I have had an incredible journey to where I am, after early years of self doubt and associated mental health diff and behaviours , my recovery began when i left home . I found a career working with very challenging children , i was very good at it and would be put with the most challenging because i had an ability to not show emotion when hit , bitten, kicked, how revealing is it that i could disassociate from anything that hurt me ! ( i think i was looking to understand myself and also to show my parents that i could take the worst of someone and still take it without any feelings).
I also became a parent and did attachment parenting , all the doubts of would i do it ok surfaced , was i good enough , would my daughter grow up hating me, and also hoping that my daughter may be the bridge that bought us all back together. As most will know this is not possible , it brings its own set of problems.

through my work i was also introduced to the knowledge of psychiatrists , psychologist and therapists which helped me understand my "inner child" and how she was created and abused.. but i am an accepting , caring person who will always try to understand... I understand my mothers own damage but until last year I accepted it as something done to her that she couldn't change.
That may be so ...... but after her and my sisters latest attack I'm only just realising that I am right to feel and say it hurts and remove myself and my family.

Its like building a defence wall, each brick is knowledge , understanding , acceptence, entitlement, love and so on.

thankyou again for making me think of this again in more detail

Husband tried to break the silence with my mother to take some of the pressure from me because I was really feeling it and getting pretty stressed just thinking about her. He was met with a very abusive onslaught.

She called him every name under the sun. I'm no prude but I was absolutely disgusted with the things she said and the way she spoke to him. He really hasn't done anything to her.

She has a completely deluded sense of what's happened and genuinely believes the lies she spouts. It's like she's repeated the same excuses to herself to justify her part in everything so many times that she's convinced herself of it! We've been left very shell shocked by it.

I've been having nightmares and remembering scenarios from my childhood since it happened and the more I think, the more I get upset and worry and the more I question myself. What have I done to deserve this abuse, the name calling, the blame, the belittling comments? She called husband an abuser. Why? What is she trying to achieve with those sort of accusations?

I've never had counselling but husband has recently suggested it might be a good idea. I spoke to a gp a couple of years ago who was very unhelpful and gave me a phone number to ring, I would have to make an appointment for a phone interview and my need would be assessed that way. I didn't feel able to ring in the end, it didn't feel like help. It felt too...impersonal. Is that silly? Should I try again?

Sorry for the ramble.

I can really relate to the 'will my daughter hate me when she is an adult" She is 43 and we have a fantastic relationship.

But just like being robbed of a childhood I think we are also robbed of being totally relaxed about our future. We struggle so hard to not be like out our mothers. The fear that you will do something wrong to destroy your relationship with your children.

Port What your DD said was so sweet. Let that memory sustain you through the teen years when despite all your best efforts she will still ocassionally be a raging hormonal whingebag of entitlement

Gaston I would recommend looking into private counselling. The NHS mental health resources are stretched to the limit and if you are able to basically function every day then you will wait an awfully long time and then only get a very limited number of sessions. You can look for someone local to you on the BACP website. If money is an issue you can often find people who do sliding scale fees.

Additionally you then have the choice of who you see - you can email several people, assess their experience and approach, and go with the one you feel suits you best. With NHS you basically get who you're given.

Counselling/therapy is an investment in your health and your future. Don't ever think of it as a luxury or an indulgence.

Thank you pocket.

Hi pocket - I've taken your advice from on my thread

Oh I savour every moment pocket , I know those days are just around the corner ....... but i still cant imagine doing or saying the sort of things that were done , said, to me when i have a raging teenager.

Reading the narc mothers dictionary has really made me laugh.... oh the similiarity.

Things my mother said ......

"Having a degree doesn't make you better than me you know" - said at my graduation when i had a 3 month old daughter and very emotional ... lucky I didnt eat her there.

"Are you doing this to prove a point" - on being told we had applied to be assessed as adopters

"Well you always did have a very vivid imagination" - when i asked her about memories of abuse in my childhood

"I think you have false memory syndrome since starting counselling" - when again asked about memories I have of abuse.

"You've always hated me ! i was never good enough for you " no mum i loved you and tried but now I have to look after myself.

"You were difficult before you were even born , even my pregnancy with you was difficult " - that was your problem , not mine , i was a "normal" baby

"You might be pretty , but once anyone gets to know you they wont want you, nobody will want you."

"Anybody with a child like you would do the same"

"I know what its like to have a child who you couldn't take anywhere, who nobody liked, that was you"

"I hope you have a child half as bad as you then you will know exactly what I went through"

can anyone relate ?

Sorry if I'm posting too much , I have slipped in and out of denial a long time and posting is making things so much clearer. And no i am not sending a card , it stops here x

Yes port, I can relate to so much of what you've written.

"You've always hated me ! I was never good enough for you" - I heard this a lot. It's always 'woe is me' with my mother.

"You were difficult before you were even born , even my pregnancy with you was difficult" - I was 3 weeks early, she had a hospital stay over the whole of December due to hypertension and she said "you fucked up Xmas, new year and my birthday" so many times I can't even count.

"Anybody with a child like you would do the same" - yes mum, I'm sure all of my friends parents were battering them left, right and centre

"I know what its like to have a child who you couldn't take anywhere, who nobody liked, that was you" - my dad once screamed at me to "shut up and grow up" I was 2 and having a toddler tantrum.

"I hope you have a child half as bad as you then you will know exactly what I went through" - this was one of her go to sentences.

Do not send the card. I've been drawn into that recently and had it thrown back at me because it wasn't a 'mum' card and I didn't write 'love from'.

Yes I had lots of these too.

"Well you always did have a very vivid imagination" - Word for word. About either my dad's sexual abuse or her emotional abuse.
My sister used to get "Well you've always been so highly strung and sensitive."

"I think you have false memory syndrome since starting counselling" - My dad claimed that watching "That bloody Esther Rantzen woman and her ridiculous Childline witch-hunting" had put ideas in my head. Never mind that it wasn't founded til 1986 and I disclosed the abuse in 1985!

"You've always hated me ! i was never good enough for you " Yep complete with tears and wailing about "You've always punished me for what your dad did" (that would be the stuff I apparently made up )

"You were difficult before you were even born , even my pregnancy with you was difficult " - Yep, apparently her pregnancy was wonderful and then PND hit her the moment I was born. I was told this from when I was about 8. So I spent most of my life feeling guilty for making her depressed. All of her "anecdotes" about her PND were about how she was feeling, how unsupported she was, how shit my dad was. Nothing about me and how I might have suffered from lack of bonding?? Of course it was really shit for her but would you really tell the child in question how difficult they made your life for their first 6 months?

"You might be pretty , but once anyone gets to know you they wont want you, nobody will want you." - I had this one the other way around: "You might be clever but you're no oil painting, and nobody likes a smart alec."

My dad used to say straight out, "Pockets is the clever one and LittleSis is the pretty one." We absolutely absorbed that narrative and struggle to overcome that image of ourselves even now. My sister feels like her self-worth is really bound up in her looks, and if she doesn't like 100% of what she sees in the mirror, it can send her into a massive depressive spiral. She constantly doubts her own intelligence and capabilities. I on the other hand couldn't give two tin shits for how I look (something which has counted against me professionally as I tend to default to "slob mode") but if I am having difficulty grasping new processes or learning something new, or I make a mistake, I suffer crippling anxiety about it.

Does anyone remember a couple of years ago, there was a riddle flying around on Facebook, and if you answered incorrectly you had to change your profile picture to a giraffe? I was 100% sure I knew the answer but when I messages someone who'd posted the riddle she said no, it's something else. Oh my god. I felt like I was facing some horrible ordeal. Like going to the dentist for a root canal without anaesthetic, or maybe appearing in court for a driving offense. I didn't even reply for hours because I was sat desparately trying to think of ways NOT to have to change my profile pic.

The idea that people on my friends list would SEE this giraffe picture and KNOW that I got a riddle wrong!! It was so scary!

It was only as I was literally on the verge of DE-FRIENDING the person who had posted the riddle, and pledging that I would ignore anyone else posting it, that I realised how ridiculous it was that I was feeling such fear and that my whole sense of self was still so bound up with being "the clever one".

I forced myself to just reply to her "Rats!" and then I changed my profile pic. I was honestly dreading logging on the next morning. I think I really believed at some level that my post would be full of people pointing and laughing. Obviously it wasn't!

Although I nearly had a panic attack over it at the time, it did serve as a powerful illustration of how these narratives from our childhood can completely define our adult lives, most of the time completely subconsciously.

Still working on my anxiety around "looking like a girl"...

Can't lurk and not post today even though time short

Yes yes here too !

It was my fault she couldn't breast feed. It was my fault I didn't sleep well when I was a baby

When I had a DD - it was" perhaps you'll understand now what it's like to have a daughter - I hope she doesn't give you the heartache you've given me"

Oh thank heavens for the stately home so that I no longer think this is 'normal'!!

Me too, all those phrases

On the up-side I've passed none of this on to my lovely daughters (25 and 21) I am still (pleasantly) surprised when they say or demonstrate that they like and love me so much though. It is wonderful but not something I took for granted. I have totally ditched my M now, and with sadness as we all feel when we have to let go of what our hopes were.

But my really delightful relationship with my DDs MORE than makes up for my terrible one with my mother. Thank goodness I protected them from her malignant influence in their lives, I really know now that I was right to have removed myself from her firing line about 15 years ago.

We had sporadic (maybe three or four times a year) cordial contact through email and cards though, for most of that time. A year and a half ago, though, she ramped it up and played a blinder sending me an email prompted by bumping in to people she knew forty years ago. They asked after me. She waffled a bit to them, but it prompted her to write to me and ask me "WHY?"

Fool that I was, I responded, in a non-blaming way, sort of to be polite - and got nasty, sarcastic bile in return, probably because I hadn't fulfilled her need for a drama and a fight. I suffered terribly over it at the time for about three months. So she has now been dumped and I just don't care anymore.

My lovely daughters are so, so kind to me when I wobble on this subject [guilt etc] which I do from time to time. They are both very clever and wise young women, and have truly understood what has happened here. They are very protective of me and they both think I should steer well clear of her - and they are so right! I also have two excellent brothers who are sadly still in the FOG, but both now in therapy at least.

Hello Stately Homes-ers, can i please ask for your views on the latest round in the game of 'who has let down whom' with my dad?

There is, of course, huge back story, and some of it I've posted about. Key points here are that I perceive he gives more help and support to my sister than to me, she's The One That Needs Taking Care Of and I'm the cussed Black Sheep who gets on with it.

I moved cities to take a new, much lower paid job, (which I love) last year. He offered me some money to help with the relocation. It never arrived. Eventually I wrote to him to ask what had happened. He's written back to say he forgot, and when he remembered, because I hadn't asked for it, he thought I was Ok and didn't need it.

He then puts a dig in that if i needed a sub from him, I shouldn't have taken the job. This misses the point that the offer was specifically to help with the move.

It's not just the money - he never took an interest, asked how it was going or anything. Friends rallied round and got me sorted.

Am I wrong to feel let down? His view is that i should have chased him up. As kids we were taught never to ask for a gift, and also I didn't want to have to ask, I wanted him to be interested in me.

We've never had a good relationship and I can't be arsed feeling sad about it any more.

Imust
He offered to help so he could feel good about himself - not so he could actually help !
you know that
and then...well he had to feel good about not actually helping - so that was bound to be your fault too - he shouldn’t have needed to actually help you - oh deary me - the horror of it all ! did he not throw a few largely unrelated incompetence digs in there at the same time?

He is an arse

Can I introduce myself please?

I've just realised from another thread that my mum is a narcissist . Long (and probably boring) back story, and I admit my story probably isn't as bad as most on here, but bad enough for me to be a bit fucked up by it all - so hopefully that qualifies me to join the thread . Apologies for my twisted sense of humour... Hi anyway