"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks for your kind words too, I need to harness my inner strength to get through all of this.

Therapist suggested that I need friends I can talk to and bond with in any form. All my friends vanished when I became ill. So, who wants to be my friend?!

Shit three posts in a row...

It's as though I'm having to learn things people naturally learn when growing up - suitable hairstyles, how to dress (no idea), how to flirt, socialise.... No idea how to get this knowledge at my age...

FantasticButtocks - it was very, very draining. Probably a combination of anxiety, my ME and the session but I got home, was mentally and physically exhausted and slept for six hours!

I'm sure you needed that sleep Steve, and it will have done you good. Don't underestimate the work you can do with a good therapist. It's likely you have developed unhelpful ways of thinking...and the good news is you can change these. Those thoughts where you are down on yourself, how you should have done this or that etc., these thoughts can deeply affect how you live your life. But they are just thoughts and you will learn to question them and change them so you begin to think in more helpful ways about yourself.

Good evening ladies. I hope it's OK to ask for opinions on a situation that happened over Christmas. In a nutshell, my younger brother and his wife gave presents to my youngest DB's SC and his other nieces and nephew. My 2 DC got nothing. Not even a card. All my family and SIL's family were invited to his place over Christmas, but they didn't invite us. That's it really.

The reason I'm wanting opinions is that I really don't know what to make of that particular situation. One part of me is saying that he had loads on and maybe it was an oversight. On the other hand, I'm thinking that it's a very clear message that he may not want anything to do with me. DS and DD didn't even get a birthday card from them last year either, never mind a present.

Both DS and DD asked me if I had fallen out with my brother, but I told them that I hadn't. They also asked if he had fallen out with me, so I told them that I wasn't aware of any falling out between us, to which they asked "So why did uncle X not even send us a card for our birthdays?".

I got talking to a few friends about it and stayed completely neutral (no bitching about him, just explaining the problem). My friends all told me that those incidents were snubs. I told them that if he had fallen out with me over something, then I'm not aware of it.

I just don't know what to make of it and am seriously thinking of moving to Wales to be closer to the friends who did more for us there than family did back here in my hometown.

I appreciate replies as I'm fed up with not knowing why he/SIL did these things. There's no point in confronting him about it as he'd never admit to anything or offer any apology.

Sorry for the essay. I couldn't make the whole situation any shorter without leaving out important info.

It sounds like a snub to me chiggers. In those situations I too tend not to say anything - I always think either I've been snubbed in which case I'm not giving them the satisfaction of thinking it bothered me, or it was an oversight in which case I wouldn't want to cause bad feeling. I think usually though our instincts about people in this situation are correct - because of the childhood emotional abuse we are both very good at reading people but also not that good at trusting our "readings", do you know what I mean?

I'd be interested to know, if any of you guys would say something in that situation, how has that gone in the past? What do you say?

Also hello banox! I read your thread, I hope we can help.
Steve, we'll be your friends! What a pity we're all spread all over the place. We could do with a Stately Homes coffee morning or something (although if you were to come by my house at the moment I would make you work in my massive overgrown garden. It's a monster! Yesterday I pruned a rose bush that had grown about 5m up the side of the house.)

Thanks for your reply TooMuch. Sometimes I feel that I'm too mature to be bothered with that crap, but the fiery part of me says to pull my brother up on his behaviour.

I know that my step niece and nephew got presents from my brother because we went to the high school DSN goes to (it was open night and DS will probably be going there) and asked how Christmas was for her, who got what for her and her DB etc. General polite conversation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to stop buying presents for my nieces birthdays and Xmas as it's not their fault their parents are like that. It would simply be punishing the kids for the actions of the parents, and that wouldn't be fair on the girls.

The reason I keep neutral in my comments is because, by their actions, my brother and SIL will show people their true colours.

It's so draining, isn't it. I'm immunising myself against the effects of his behaviour. It means that whatever he uses to try and manipulate me with won't work. That'll annoy him even more and he'll probably go bitching to mum about me, then I'll get it in the neck from mum as well. Dad, however, sticks up for me, but mum always sides with 'D'B.

Good morning Steve and everyone else. I hope you're all coping with your situations. As hard as it may be, please concentrate on your own wee families. It may distract you all momentarily from the problems you have with your toxic relatives.

Chiggers,

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what roles did you and your brother play within your family of origin?. And what roles are being still played out now.

From what you have written I am wondering if brother is the golden child whilst you are the family scapegoat. He also has his mother at his back and you do not have her support (and likely never have done either). Your father seems to be like a bystander who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has also failed to protect you here. Is your dad also your mother's enabler?.

TBH I would not bother buying any more presents for his children because they are likely to be unappreciated. His children do not know or likely even much care where these gifts came from. You are perhaps still seeking your brother's approval and he will never give you that.

People like your brother and SIL rarely show their true colours to people and some people out there simply do not recognise the behaviours for what they are i.e. toxic. You see it many times on other parts of this site; many relatives behaving very badly and that gets excused or minimised by some posters too.

Hello all, I was wondering what your feelings were on how you have been able to 'normalise' the way you see the world in any way. I find that even in my late thirties I still see things differently and have to adjust what I say/how I react to situations because my upbringing skewed my vision of the world. It leaves me feeling quite embarassed at times...

For example

• Recently I told someone that it was 'normal' for them to flip out at an abusive partner, because I've experienced that feeling of being trapped. But then I realised that actually my mother flipped out a lot like that and so maybe I was seeing it in a way that other people would not. It got me thinking about what I thought was right and wrong and how I might have it a bit wrong!

• I remember once telling a man who hit his gf that it was ok, all men do that - obvs now I know otherwise!!! So I have improved somewhat!!

• I can't stand violence on tv/films and find it emotionally upsetting
• But in an emergency situation I am fearless and will wade in despite any danger

• In conversation I can talk about things that may seem inappropriate and have no idea I am doing it until afterwards. I cringe at some of the things I have said in the past. A lot of it was me reitterating some of the horrible stories my dm told me as I grew up - she had no boundaries and in fact seems to have some sort of fascination in talking about death/abuse.

• It's taken me years to learn what is appropriate and what is not, but sometimes find myself crossing the line and only realise a day or so later and then I'm cringing inside again.

Does any of this sound familiar? And have any of you found a way of normalising yourself to avoid embarassment? Even just little things like social things I find even now I'm learning that every body else seems to understand and I don't! Like, my dp offered to buy lucozade when I was ill and chicken soup and I was confused (and a little offended - di he think I couldn't cope?!) until he explained his dm always bought some for him. That then made me think I'd never bought any for him or my dc when they were ill. I've subtly asked others about it and they all have similar stories. Being ill in my childhood meant swigging from the bottle of benilyn left in our bedroom and left to it. I am a caring mother but had no idea that people extended that caring attitude with special food and drinks!!!

Sometimes I wish there was a manual! It would have stopped me making so many daft decisions. I guess I feel hindered by it all. I'm having therapy but I wondered if anyone felt a similar way. I suppose it's not right to think about 'normal' and 'abnormal' but I often feel like I'm on the outside looking in on everyone who 'gets it'. It makes me feel like a bumbling fool. I also worry about passing on any of this traits onto my dc, though I am very mindful of bringing them up in a very loving and supportive home now that I am free of abuse.

I am still very much in contact with my family, having been what I now recognise as the 'lost child' with one sister the 'golden child' and the other 'the scapegoat'. Our dm and df tried their best but didn't really have the tools. Quite a lot of my childhood was lonely and I am unable to discuss any of it with my family as they simply don't see it that way. My dm is very much still in my 'golden' sister's life, which she pays a price for.

One of the things that I am very conscious of at the moment is how domineerng my dm is in conversation and trying not to be the same. For example, she will be negative about everyone and a typical conversation goes from one person to the next talking about the mistakes they are making and how they aren't very nice and I get drawn in agreeing. Then when I am alone I feel ashamed that I agreed and actually I don't think that way about them at all. But everytime we talk it happens all over again and I seem to have very little control over it. I guess I'm desperate to please her in one way and in another it's like an old pattern that I get stuck in.

It has caused problems in my past as people rightly pulled me up on negative talk about others and now I am so conscious of it I purposefully try to see everyone's point of view until I become panicked when I actually have to offer an opinion. Does that make sense? I very much keep friends and associates at arms length as a result and have never really had a close friendship with anyone.

rickety

What sort of contact do you have with your parents these days?. I would seriously consider looking into reducing it a lot further even down to zero.
It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and what you have written is pretty much typical of life within a narcissistic family of origin.

Your parents more than did not just have the tools, they failed you completely.

I was wondering if you have ever worked with a therapist who knows a lot about narcissistic family structures because seeing such a person could really help you. Adult children of narcissists have huge problems with boundaries mainly because they were never encouraged to set any. These people saw and still see you as an extension of them.

The website Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers could also help you.

So I tried communicating with my mother regarding the bit of business I was talking about before....and am now being subjected to radio silence because it's not going her way.

I feel a bit superior because I did actually prove her wrong on one level but at the same time I feel anxious and low because it doesn't help the bloody situation whatsoever.

I've talked to dh about a solicitor to deal with it and he's agreed it's the best way but I can see she's just going to completely ignore us however we try to communicate with her. She told me that because she hasn't seen me or the dc in 12 months that she's going to make us wait until she's ready and there's very little we can do about it.

Control. Again.

Hi Rickety - I understand that thing of being drawn in by your mother's opinions, agreeing with her to be 'in' with her. I used to do this, makes you feel awful.

My therapist has discussed narcissm with me which led me to discover the stuff about 'golden child' and 'scapegoat'. I couldn't recognise myself in the scapegoat altogether and then found 'lost child' and that summed it up. I could be the scapegoat but generally learnt to stay off the radar as much as possible. I think I'll have another look at that website.

I can't see me going no contact with my dm as I just would feel terribly guilty and she hasn't done enough to warrant it. I don't get the late night calls or anything like that. It's more day to day stuff. I can totally see why you'd suggest it. However, we are at an interesting point in our relationship where she knows I'm in therapy and is trying to make adjustments without me actually asking for them.

How did you stop getting drawn in fantastic?

I've just read steve's posts up thread an we've said similar things about learning how to do things later in life!

Like hair/clothes etc. I have no idea with self care either steve. I use youtube to help with dc hairstyles. Doesn't help that golden dsis is always immaculate!! The life long comparisons have made me feel like a scruffy rag doll.

ricketytickety I was intrigued by your mention of the lost child. I have just googled it and it has struck some chords. I too have often wished there was a manual for me to consult as I often also get things very wrong - which usually ends up with me feeling very stupid and wanting to hide away and not take part in living any more.

When I look back over my life I am appalled by really obvious things not being at all obvious to me even though I am far from daft. In fact I often question how can I have NOT known such things? for example, I have always loved reading but had almost no access to books outside school yet it never occured to me to join a library until my husband suggested it - and then I thought I had found heaven. I walked past a college on my way to school every day, but again, I never thought of it as a place that I could go to so ended up leaving school without sitting any exams and going into a boring office junior job (this was in the 1970's).

I have no idea how to accept a gift, a compliment or help gracefully because I don't feel I deserve anything.

I have so much I want to say, but right now I dont have the words so I'll leave it there. It is nice though to have found a place where I can say things if I want to.

rickety

I think a way forward for you ultimately would be to break away entirely from your toxic family of origin. That thought is likely to be beyond the pale currently.

FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) are but three of many damaging legacies left by such toxic families to their victims. Your mother has no real concept of boundaries and is still trying to bring you to heel. She still wants to keep you in the role she assigned to you within your dysfunctional family of origin.

Goodness alone knows what she thinks about you being in therapy, again you telling her at all this shows your own lack of boundaries when it comes to her. She could well use that info to further undermine you and will ignore any boundaries you care to set her. Infact she is already doing that. Its no real surprise you told her however, she has trained you to serve her your whole life. Your needs and wants are stone dead last, you have been taught not to express your needs.

Narcissistic grandparents in particular make for being really bad grandparent figures. They tend to either over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild. Infact watching the narcissist interact with the grandchild is painful simply because there is no real interaction, its like watching a re-run of a tv show you have always hated.

Reading this may also help you rickety

lightshouse.org/lights-blog/the-four-dysfunctional-family-roles#axzz3yMK8iTLh

How did you stop getting drawn in fantastic? Sadly, I don't have any contact with her at all now, after about 15 years of hardly any contact It was the only way for me.

Atilla, TBH, I never took to thinking about what roles we played and because of that, I haven't a clue what my role actually was, except for being the black sheep of the family I suppose. I was too busy either working or partying to take notice. I still didn't think about it when I met DH and had our DC, as I was busy tending to my own family. I suppose that may have protected me from the emotional damage it could have caused, and therefore contributed to even worse MH problems.

I never really got emotional about things, except when my MIL died. She was the best mum anyone could ask for. The only people who didn't like her was my brother and mum. My mum seems constantly angry and picky with me nowadays. Always nit-picking about something I'm doing, which would be the minor stuff that others wouldn't give a 2nd thought about LOL. When I told her and the brother about doing a degree in Psychology, they said "What do you want to do that for?". It was in a really snarky and almost panicky tone, so I guessed they figured that I'll soon figure out what their game was (not that I hadn't already figured it out anyway).

I really want to move back to Wales, but I don't feel I can until my dad passes away. Dad was very good to me. Stuck up for me when 'D'B and mum were backstabbing and bitching about me. He told me as much and always made sure that my other DB's told me when it happened when they were around. I now go to mum and dad's to see dad and ODB (Older Dear Brother) and YDB (Youngest DB) and their OH's.

Anyway, thanks for the input Atilla, it's much appreciated . Ever sine I have chosen to say very little to mum, she has been nice as anything. Maybe she wants me to get back into my role as the scapegoat/whipping boy, but that ain't happening and I think she's very put out with my new stance

I'm yet to read back over recent posts, but have just had contact from a family member, I think this is perhaps what is meant by the 'flying monkeys'?

I've been NC with family since Xmas/ NY. And my life has taken a turn for the better if anything. An aunt has then sent a few texts this week (this is after I ignored the knock at the door which I think was DM - immediately on the back of that in fact). The aunt first enquired lightly how I was and said I could visit her.. then when I replied to that she sent another messgae, she asked about my birthday which is coming up soon and whether I was doing anything with DM - to which I replied no and that DM/DSis never celebrate my birthday anyway (which is completely true). Then today I get a text that questions that last response, in the sense of 'what, she doesn't even send you a card/go out for a meal with you?' sort of thing.

The truth is that DM usually does send me a card. That's it, that's her sum total celebration of my birthday. There's never been any suggestion of a meal or anything, and I can imagine DM saying that she can't afford that sort of thing (though she and husband find enough money every month to fill their car with alcohol). The fact is, I used to travel back from another part of the country for DM's birthday and take her and husband out, but she's never done the same sort of thing for me. I think I put in previous posts, that last year's Xmas present was a box of cotton buds, and this year's was a £1 box of chocolates. Doesn't exactly make e feel special. She gives me money at Xmas but I spend that on DD. I suppose I could spend it on myself but I choose not to.

How do I convey to other people what DM does? That in fact she does the very minimum possible to not be called a 'bad mother'. Then goes around telling everyone what a wonderfully supportive mother and grandmother she is so that people think I'm lying when I try to explain that's not the case? I feel I'll be wasting precious energy if I try, and don't feel like arguing my points anyway. It upsets me explaining. Even receiving the texts has upset me when I've been having an otherwise ok day. I don't want to be rude to y aunt or fall out with any more people, but don't want to enter into a text war about whether DM gives a sh*t about me.

Banox, it sounds like the "You're not worth it" mentality has been so ingrained that we don't even notice it, but it can come out in some of the things we say or do. It may not be clear to us, but it can become clear to those who observe us in everyday life IYSWIM. Because we are in the thick of things, we don't necessarily see what others see. It's when someone we trust points it out to us that we step back and actually see what they're on about. And it's scary that we haven't detected it before, as well as being mentally exhausting when we understand the uphill struggle we face having to lessen or go NC with those toxic people.

steve I've found some of the TED talks on Youtube, on 'self development' useful, if you haven't come across those yet x

I don't mean that to sound trite by the way, it's just some of the people talking have lived through some very bad circumstances and come out the other side, and sometimes that helps to give me hope

Eternal, you need to be totally unemotional about the whole situation, and then tell people exactly what you've been through, what she has done for you, physically and emotionally, and let them make up their own minds.

Your mum will find that people will see through her exaggerations of the support she's giving you and her GD. When that happens, she'll have to explain why she exaggerated or lose face. The problem with people who make themselves to be something they're not, is that they eventually get found out.