"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Eternal

You don't need to tell anyone anything. It's between you and your DM and it's your business alone...

You don't have to justify a decision to go NC to anyone but yourself. I am usually a bit vague when people enquire about DM. I say we're not close and don't see each other and then change the subject. With my half sister I explain that it is my decision alone and I am no obligation to her or anyone else. Most healthy people accept this. Those who are not don't - but I would avoid those discusions.

Admittedly, it has taken me a long time to get to this point. And my DM is the ignoring type - so I can say clearly that she neglected me and my siblings to the extreme degree.

Thanks, I wrote a straight unemotional reply with a couple of facts, her next reply to me just changed the subject so hopefully that's done it.

walk I guess it comes back to knowing where the boundaries should be

Ugh, I have just realised that a few hours ago when I was speaking to my parents on Skype I felt guilty about wearing makeup. I'm 35 and haven't lived under their roof or control for well over 10 years, for crying out loud. And it didn't even register at the time what I was feeling. I even thought about explaining to them why I was wearing it so they wouldn't think badly of me. Thank goodness I didn't. I feel so stupid.

On a different note, can anyone help with some topics of conversation that I can use to gracefully turn the conversation away from the things that I would rather not talk about? The thing is, I don't want to talk to my parents about my pregnancy-related health issues because in the past they've talked about them to other people. They ever-so-concernedly ask me how I am every single time we speak, and sometimes I manage to do the airy smile-and-nod, but not always. I think I need to stick post-its up on my computer to remind me.

Commiserations to those having dreams about their parents. Mine are more common and vivid during pregnancy and definitely don't help my state of mind.

Walk, well done on getting to where you are today. As you know, these things don't happen overnight. It takes time and a lot of soul-searching to get to the point where you feel mentally well and free enough to go NC.

The positive part I see from what you have said in your post, is that you have become a very strong person. You don't go through what you did and come out the other side a weaker person.

I went through a lot in my younger years. I was beaten with a ruler/other sturdier implements for defending myself from my brother (mentioned in my recent posts), I was ignored, constantly told I was lazy, challenging, disruptive, stupid etc. Fast forward to now and my dad has sincerely apologised, told me he never stopped loving me and that he should have done more to stop mum from emotionally hurting me. I said that what she said didn't hurt me, but made me stronger. Dad smiled like a Cheshire Cat and told me to follow my dreams of being a Psychologist and never let mum or my brother get me down.

I told him that every time mum says something deemed hurtful, it bounces off me like water off a waxed jacket. I have a much better relationship with dad due to him admitting that he could have done better as a father to protect me from all this, and apologising profusely for his lack of protection. He now steps in and gives mum what for when she bitches at me about some minor thing I've done (like not done my ironing yet, or got rid of the dogs etc).

Like many mother of the posters on here, my mum is all about appearances and how she looks to the outside. She'll deny that she said anything out of turn and that I'm making stuff up, whereas dad will back me up if he witnesses any incident.

One laugh my dad, DH, ODB, his OH and I had was on my mum's 70th. We got her tinted moisturiser and some anti-wrinkle cream. When she opened her present she said "Are you trying to say that I have wrinkles and need to get rid of them?" to which DH replied "Well, we could always swap them for some embalming fluid if you want?". Mum was so professionally offended it was ridiculous, but DH, DF, ODB, YDB, their OH's and I were creased up in fits of laughter .

Chiggers - thank you.

I found When Will I Be Good Enough a useful book. In particular the bit about parenting myself. I try and do that now and treat myself with the same kindness and compassion I treat my infants. It's helped me a lot.

It took me years to understand what healthy boundaries were. And how I was supposed to behave. The answer for me is that they are the expectation of how you should be treated by other people. Ie with kindness and respect simply. Once I realised that healthy people don't really need you to reinforce your boundaries it became easier to understand those relationships that worked for me. And it was game over for my relationship with DM - I think she saw that too.

My DM is a classic narcissist in that she has a trail of broken relationships, abandoned children, pets jobs, financial difficulties and alcohol abuse. There is very little to connect us now - which makes it easier for me. She probably would have abandoned me from an early age as she did my half siblings were in it for my DF who was very much under her influence. He raised me and she lived nearby dipping in and out of our lives based on what she needed from us. I worked out very early on that it was all about what she needed and how she wanted to be perceived. I was lucky that I had more healthy maternal influences around. In fact lucky that she wasn't that interested in me because it has made it easier to sever the connection.

Walk, I'm so glad you found out what a healthy relationship is and that most normal people will either not overstep the boundaries, or will apologise if they do. There's a lot of truth in the old phrase "Actions speak louder than words".

What I've noticed about people is that when they're in the thick of things, they tend not to see the whole situation they're in. Sometimes it takes an outsider to help/make them see that, for instance, your situation/upbringing wasn't healthy or normal.

I've had my mum complaining to my older brother and youngest DB that I don't respect her enough, but the more I respect her, the more she complains that I don't. It's a subtle way of sucking everything out of you, for their own ends, because the victim, until they see the light, will give their all and then, when they have no more to give, the 'emotional/mental hoover' (narc person) they sulk because they're not getting what they want out of you IYSWIM.

My mum probably isn't a narc, but she is very close to one. Maybe I'm hesitating to call her one because I'm not sure if she would be diagnosed as one, but rather be classed as having most of the narc traits. Instead of wondering if I should apologise for telling the truth and upsetting mum, I wonder what I didn't say to her and should have.

It's all so draining just thinking about it, although I tend not to because I can't change anything. All I can do is change how I react to her and strive to make a better life for my wee family. Do you know, I feel like I'm sitting back and watching a cringeworthy pantomime about my life. I'm lucky in that I've been detached for many, many years, so I suppose I'm not as badly affected as others would be on this thread.

Steve, how are you doing? It would be nice to have you get some more stuff off your chest on here and, as you know, the other ladies and gents are happy to give an different perspective or advice if you need it.

Sometimes you feel like you're the only one with this problem, and then you find a thread like this and you realise that many people have gone through similar experiences. Not many people feel comfortable talking about something like narc relatives and how those relatives have affected our lives considerably.

I'm absolutely knackered, but will be back tomorrow morning, so I will bid all you good people goodnight, and I hope you all get a good night's sleep. Take care

Hi all,

I'm a longtime lurker, I do admit to not having kept up with every post here but I certainly do dip in and out, these threads are so good for info and support, you helped me identify my own issues with DM so many thanks to long term posters

I'm coming here just to ask for some advice really about my current situation from anyone else here who also has narc DM troubles and the like (apologies in advance if this gets long!).

So trying to keep it to the point as much as possible, DM has been typically narcissistic, passive aggressive towards me since early adulthood (I'm now early 30's). She is definitely of the 'ignoring' kind and, dare I say it, seems to be jealous of me but I'm never really sure why.

In the last few years I've gone from leaving home and early career to marriage and children, very happily for me, and with DM and immediate family at a distance. Only after DCs arrived did DM show any interest in my life, coming to visit, etc. In the beginning I was wary of her interest but allowed it with a few limitations only to discover she had zero respect for my wishes (think unsuitable presents for small children), was rude and insulting towards me as she always had been before, no real concern for DCs health and safety, and gave the impression to DH and myself that she really was only interested in just one of our two children, to quite an intensity.

With that as a red warning light we withdrew much contact and remained distant, I really didn't want the DCs picking up on favouritism. I did explain this to her as well as the other issues and tried as best and politely as I could to lay down a few more ground rules before any more visits happened. This turned out to be a huge mistake and ended up with her inconsolable crying, rage at me for daring to tell her what she can or can't do and grandchildren.

That was a couple of years ago and since then there has been no face-to-face contact because we just can't come to a reasonable compromise. There have been a few calls, emails etc but with very little interest shown from DM towards us, no questions about how we are other than information gathering despite me trying to keep things civil and showing interest in her and immediate family around her. Fast forward to now and communication has hit an all time low with DM not even answering 'hi how are you?' from me, only making demands to see me face to face.

I absolutely know DM doesn't actually want to see me at all, I can only imagine it's the DCs she wants or maybe only the one she chose to enjoy the most. As I'm writing this I'm feeling a bit silly because my gut feeling is not to give in to her and yet I have the nagging feeling that if I don't even just go for a short while I'm cutting DC off from GDPs and other family who are all controlled by DM. I don't want my DC to be in harms way or see me get 'told off' by DM r ignored, but at the same time why can't I let this go and hold me ground?

Thanks for reading and any advice is really appreciated x

Sheep

Low contact often leads to no contact.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and the best thing you can do for you and your family is to cease all contact with your mother. You do not need her approval and again it is impossible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

Like many ACON's (adult children of narcissists) you likely have huge problems with boundary setting mainly because she has trained you to serve her and put your own needs last. You cannot readily if at all assert your own self in your mother's presence (not that you should ever see her now anyway). You are perhaps still seeking her approval by enquiring after her; you need to stop doing that behaviour as of now because its not doing you any good at all. She knows that she is treating you like dirt and does not care.

It is not your fault she is like this; her own family of origin likely did this to her.

She was not and still is not a good parent to you and she is a deplorably bad and toxic grandparent figure to your children. They need to be protected from her at all costs; you have already seen all too clearly what she is capable of and over valuing or under valuing the relationship with the grandchild is typical of narcissists. She could very well drive a wedge between your children as well because one will notice that the other is being overtly favoured. It will damage them both.

I am only sorry that no-one seemingly helped you at all when you were a lot younger.

What are your DHs family of origin like; if they are nice and emotionally healthy then concentrate on them instead.

I would read Children of the Self Absorbed written by Nina W Brown as well as look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

This excerpt may well help you as well:-

"Here are the facts of life: the malignant narcissist is still a malignant narcissist even after you give birth. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your Nparent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children. If you allow contact between your children and your Nparent it must never be out of sight. Never for a moment leave your child alone with this serial abuser. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Nparent. Ever.

So you've made the decision that cutting off contact with your Nparent is a necessity and now you're dealing with questions from your children, or you're anticipating questions. First of all, let us establish another fact. You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the Ngrandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favor. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" says the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Kidlet doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow".

Attila thanks so much for your reply, that's some good advice, particularly about knowing how to handle speaking to DCs about it.

What you have said has all been taken on board and the rational part of me whole heartedly agrees with you. I don't why I just can't shake it, I suppose I am still hoping for (unrealistically) the normal grandparent relationship even if it is at a distance, like I'm ashamed to cut her off completely because that makes me the bad daughter.

BandBsheep - please don't give yourself a hard time about not being able to shake off guilt and shame.
It all takes time and a lot of self care. When DS was born I was determined that he would not be exposed to my father's poison. I didn't know then what I know now and, like you, hoped that a relationship would be possible. Contact with my father was limited and always supervised. However, a seemingly innocuous comment made by DS alerted me to the fact that he felt uncomfortable around my father. Contact was further limited. I put no pressure on DS to 'conform' and protected him from my father. I was being a good mum. As you are.
What I also should have been doing is protecting myself too, but I didn't know then the extent of the training I had undergone to serve my father's needs. He strove tirelessly to pit one sibling against another, had a favourite sibling and grandchild, told extensive lies and behaved like a spider in a web, controlling all the threads. When he was eventually called out on his behaviour, he bleated and grovelled, whilst plotting his revenge. I went NC and it felt marvellous. As he lay dying, I received umpteen calls to visit him. I refused. He had nothing to say that I needed to hear.
Far from being a bad daughter, I had been an outstandingly good daughter. And those last 5 years of his life I was the strong, brave survivor daughter.
You must do what you need to do to heal yourself and keep your children safe. They are worth it. And you are too.

White

Thank you for your response, it's really great to hear from someone else in. The same position and we'll done on your courage at going NC, sounds like you made the best choice you could for your DS and reaped the benefit of it.

This is what always catches me out, I feel so silly. When it's someone else. I can totally understand it and yet when it's my own life I'm always torn and have no idea why. I have no 'feelings' or emotion left with my DM, I am totally detached. I keep wondering how I could cope with a visit, if DH and I stay around the DC ALL THE TIME, if we only make it really short, if we lay down about a hundred ground rules which seem over the top but aren't in he situation, etc.

But then if we do visit will come the incessant questions and information gathering about why short visit not staying over, when will we come again, what school DC are going to, when will I get a job, blah blah blah! It sounds normal when I put it like that for families to ask this, but trust me it isn't really when DM takes absolutely no interest at any other time, unless visiting every call, email to be nice has, to be initiated by me and most end with her complaining about my ill treatment of her and constant demands for me to see her. They really aren't bothered with us the rest of the time.

I think we as a family unit (me, DH and DC) are perfectly happy without my family in our lives but I keep thinking if I can keep contact as minimal as possible at least I won't totally lose out on the immediate family who are all in DMs inner circle, and also have nothing to do with me 99% of the time.

Oh dear I've whinged on and sound a bit desperate! Sorry and thanks for reading it all.

BandBSheep - it is hard when you let your thoughts circle around those in the inner circle. Just how supportive of you are they? What do they really understand of how difficult this is for you? If the answer is they aren't and they don't, then perhaps you don't need them in your life. You've worked hard to build a good life with your own little family. They are the most important thing here. Believe, I know exactly what those questions sound like. In my father's case, it was purely in order for him to use and manipulate with. Nothing to do with actually caring about anything but himself. Small steps B - you'll get there.
(And you're not desperate or whingy - it takes strength to unravel all the ways we are held in hock to damaged parents)

hello - another lurker here and sometime poster , not sure of the etiquette here so please be kind if i make any clumsy mistakes, i dont mean any harm ...... ooh there I go ...... apologising before I even begin.

my story is very similar to a few of the stories on here so i guess this is the right place.

After a nasty experience with my sister in oct 2014 when her 3 year old badly hurt my 7 year old at her drama party , not deliberate but 7 year old understandably very distressed and asked him to be taken out , he was play fighting and warned 3 times by me that he would have to come out and sit with adults in another room if he didn't want to be part of party, so when he was brought out my sister felt I should give 2 mins time out and let him go back in , because of disruption that had already happened I said no - party continued , everybody appeared happy , including my nephew who joined in with food and happily playing balloons with my OH.

But ..... my sister very offended , called me a few days later to tell me how unfair she thought i had been , and i was furious , no asking about my daughter , all about her and how inappropriately i had behaved, i was really shocked, a lot of her perception of what happened doesn't match with others , who said how calmly I had dealt with it.

Our "so called mother"(SCM) wasn't there as in hospital so she said she "couldnt get involved" i just wanted her to listen and tell me what she thought I should have done differently , couldnt do that !

Fast forward a few months of frosty family get together's where no matter what i tried to talk about my sister would be blatently rude , to the point of my 7 year old said , " even though you are sisters , you are not friends are you mum" so even she could see how i was being treated was not nice. This was very relevant as we had just gone through a gruelling adoption assessment and were matched with our now darling second daughter ( aged 1).

Every thing I got slightly wrong was seen as me being deliberately difficult ( being late , phone dying ) would be met with a extreme reaction, no amount of I'm sorry would be good enough. and as we now had our second daughter living with us i couldn't face a family " mother , daughter " day out with either of them that had been planned and the tension and stress it would cause me.

So i told them to use my ticket for someone else and go and have a good time, they were furious , my sister called me aggressive when i just stood up for myself, they have rang other family members saying i am unsafe to be around ( they think my sister is having some sort of breakdown) and things i am supposed to have said to put me in a bad light ( i.e my mum couldn't attend a family event because I said she shouldn't leave my dad , the opposite was true I even offered my OH to visit my dad so she could go) this lie was exposed which was the best feeling for me because for the first time both my mum and sister were being seen as the manipulative team they have often been.

I always excused my sister because i saw her as a victim of our childhood , but this year she has done everything she could to damage me and my new family. This all between oct 14 and july 2015 when i started to ask them to just leave me alone to get on with my life.

I am extremely fortunate in lots of ways , long standing and new friends who don't agree with their opinion of me at all. a great little family , lovely OH and good relationship with extended family ......... but i still find myself grieving for my "lost family" and in moments of weakness wondering if there was something i could have done to fix it.

this week is my SCM birthday , I have always found card buying difficult with all the gushy sentiments and I just cant do it , should I send card from grandchildren, they haven't seen them since xmas , but always ringing to ask when they can have my eldest ( youngest they have had very little access to) , we have been funnelling , an adoption parenting style , which my parents didnt agree with, they didnt agree with my style of parenting eldest either , i was keeping her to myself too much.

I have long accepted that their only real interest is in my child , I am an inconvenient tag on .

I have been told that i was trouble from before i was even born ! and made everyone's life hell ( last bit very true , i was an emotionally deprived/ abused child who acted out). I have become an achieving adult , degree ( supported myself) happily in a relationship with a lovely guy and our two lovely children. approved by ss who know the whole dirty story and have been 100% supportive , and even called us exceptional parents dealing which I am very proud of. ( i was completely open with ss , they visited my mum and could see right through her , my sister has acused me of keeping them away from her, but they had her details and chose who they wanted to see).

So why do i grieve what i cant change ...... i have tried , but without sacrificing myself i cant see what else i can do.

estrangement is so hard especially around birthdays etc, all i wanted was a proper mum. people have asked me what I would feel if she died - I reply honestly , sadness that i never got the mum for me that I am trying to be to my own children......... very sad.

THankyou for reading , sorry its long , oops another apology ! sorry x

Porta

No proper advice from me I'm afraid as you can probably see I'm in much the same situation as you - minus the added pressure of cousins which sounds like an extra special kind of hell to have to deal with. Just want to say I really get the predicament you are finding yourself in. Your line,

"I have long accepted that their only real interest is in my child , I am an inconvenient tag on . "

This I could have written as well it's horrid and worse still that we feel the bitterness at being denied the 'normal' family.

How will you feel when dies? Is one of those question people ask, who have no idea what our lives are like.

Mine died last year in her 90s. She was unable to eat after a stroke and it took 6 weeks without eating before she was finally gone.

I went almost every day, because I did not want her to die alone. For 70 years she made me unhappy, but I could not go NC or stand up to her.

There is nowhere else on earth that I can say this:

I sat by her bed thinking, 'this is the one good thing in your life you have done for me. If you had shown me just one moment of kindness, or loved me in any way, this would be so hard. As it is I am doing my duty by you to the very end, but when you go I will feel nothing'.

I had no emotion at the funeral except relief. My brother and I had no need to speak to each other about her at the Wake as we knew what she was. He had disengaged all his life as he had much the worse part of the deal.

Bad sheep . I know there is no advice but just getting it written down and having others responses is the best I can expect at the moment.

just to say my cousin and aunty ( "so called mothers" sister) have been great.
I told my auntie that I didnt expect her to fall out with them on my behalf , her response was " i dont know what she is playing at" and when she has said anything about our contact my auntie has said that i am her niece and there is no problem between me and auntie.
My cousin (who my scm has never liked) has said that my mum shouldnt be allowed to behave without being challenged

I feel your pain x

Florentina,

I found this to be an interesting article on the subject:-

emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/#sthash.mKV4vUx2.dpuf

I learnt a long time ago that it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. When my narcissistic FIL died I honestly felt nothing for him either. I went to his funeral purely to support my DH whose own relationship with him was pretty much non existent as well.

Porta - you are doing nothing wrong and an awful lot right. Take comfort in the support from aunties and cousins. Lucky you to have someone within the family circle who can see what is happening.
Grieving is exactly that. Mourning what you never had and won't get from SCM. I completely get the card buying difficulty and never bought the gushy, sentimental ones because neither of my parents reflected the words.I even stopped sending my father cards because he would have seen that any form of contact was validation of his behaviour and that he was right.
Florentina - on the day that my father died I went 'home' purely to support my siblings, first stopping off to see the one who had gone NC years previously. I showed up at silly o'clock in the morning with a bottle of champagne for her. We threw our arms around each other, cried and said 'he can't hurt us any more'.
When I went round to my father's house to see the rest of my siblings, I realised within an hour that something very strange was going on. But that's a story for another time.
And Attila - I too felt nothing at the funeral except relief that he was out of my life in all ways possible. Mind you, the air was blue at the funeral parlour when I went to check that he really was dead. I cursed and swore at him as I paced around his casket. It was bloody marvellous.

It's been a strange week, lots of introspection. My therapist mentioned the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) as Flashbacks, Nightmares, pounding heartbeat/physical reactions and anxiety when reminded of an event.

I denied it when the therapist mentioned it but in the last days I've realised I often suffer flashbacks and nightmares, physical/anxiety symptoms less often but several times per month.

This has to be related to the ongoing issues with my mother - I'd highlight the child years, perhaps 8-12, with her stripping my self esteem and self worth. Making me feel like I was nothing in high school and essentially telling me to make friends. (I studied extremely well at school, my high school reports from first to last year were filled with 15+ A grades out of 19.

The second major problem with her occurred at 15-17, where she destroyed my adult life. At 16 in the Janwe ( mother, father, me) attended an event at high school to discuss options post GCSE. After the main meeting, a group of 20 of us were called to an additional meeting and were told we were the most intelligent students in the year and we should be looking to high end courses in academic subjects at colleges such as law, medicine-related, going into teaching etc.

Upon getting home, and until the day GCSE results dropped through, I was repeatedly told they "could not afford for me to go to college,nor university, and I would have to get a job with my GCSE results". This was drilled into me every day in detail (neither of my parents worked - mother due to MH issues but worked part time in retail when I was about 13 to 22 or so); my father had a serious accident at work that severely injured his back when I was very young - he was lucky to not be in a wheelchair). Having this message drilled into my psyche for so long I flunked my GCSEs and received much lower grades than everyone expected. Several of my teachers asked my what was wrong. Of course I couldn't tell them what had happened at home.

She wanted to control every aspect of my life. My brother was, and still is, undoubtedly the golden child. My mother bought him a motorbike and then a car. My brother did a YTS scheme into full work and was supported financially by mother.

My mother was disparaging about my then girlfriend at 20 but will no doubt cover this in a later post.**
*
Possibly triggering below.*

Finally, in relation to PTSD, there was an incident when I was 13/14 (14 I think). I was out riding my bike with a friend. We often went on rides and were 10-15 miles from home. We'd pulled into a lay-by as friend was panting and wanted to check something on his bike. A man in a red car stopped in the lay-by and got out. He saw my friend panting, me sweating and asked if everything was ok with friends bike. Friend said it was a small issue and would take him five mins. The man said that there was a country park less than a mile/a few minutes down the road, he had cans of pop in his car. Would my friend like him to take his bike and him in the car and I followed on bike - he would travel slowly enough for me to follow. My friend eagerly agreed before I could think.

Whilst following him, his car flicked up a stone that shattered the bottom half of one of my front teeth (it was filed down and subsequently crowned). Hurt like a bitch.

Got to the country park and it was empty. We went into a small area with a park table, some swings and a fence separating the park from untended land. My friend use the park table to fix his bike, I sat on the fence. The man gave us a can each. The man asked my friend about his bike the. Came over to talk to me. I finished my drink quickly (very thirsty and hot after cycling). Put can on fence. Man then put him hand on my knee/leg and proceeded to feel between my legs. He held me down with his other hand as I began to struggle. He felt me for probably five minutes, maybe more. I got an erection from what he was doing. I guess he was trying to make me orgasm. My friends bike was obscuring his vision, as he finished repairing it after some time, and yelled "FIXED IT) the man let me go and laughed. He then left.

I'm so ashamed at what happened, it's so utterly shameful. I should have tried to fight him more,but he was so strong. I told my DW what had happened briefly on FRIDAY. Above is the most detail.

Was it my fault? Did I ask for it by taking a drink? - was it "payment"?

Was I sexually assaulted?

I definitely have flashbacks and nightmares about it. Maybe more. I'd buried it until my first therapy a week ago - it's gotten out of my "box"...

Eternal - the TED talks are on my watch list - have found a playlist of 23 focusing on personal development?pretty.

Chiggers - it's really very tough at the moment. I genuinely think I never would have expressed anything of my issues and past without MumsNet. I just hope my posts can help other people suffering at some point. Reading, admittedly mainly lurking, other threads gives me much realisation.

My ME is up on the very severe rank at the moment with everything I've disclosed here, and going on. My joint pain and fatigue are so bad I'm bedbound 100%, sleep is very sporadic, migraines. Just really tough and very hard monetarily too!

Be well everyone, I'm so sorry you're all going through issues with narcissism loaded. Best wishes.

(Sorry for any typos, was an emotional post to write...)

Steve,

I believe you.

You were sexually assaulted and NO, repeat NO it was NOT your fault. It is entirely the fault of the person who did that to you; he is a sexual predator.

This organisation may be able to help you as well:-
www.survivorsuk.org/

Please consider contacting them.

Steve

I'm glad you felt enough trust in this group to be able to share this horrible experience that you were put through by what sounds like a very seasoned abuser.

*Yes you were sexually assaulted.
*NO you were not in ANY way to blame.
*NO you should not feel that you should have been able to fight him off. A 13yr old boy is no match for a fully grown man who was probably experienced in restraining his victims.
*Your body had a purely physical response to physical stimulation. That is what your body is designed by nature to do (for the perpetuation of the species.) Many, many abusers who prey on male victims rely on this in order to shame and control their victims.

There is a great deal of silence and shame around male survivors (which is a product of our sexist worldview that a man cannot be a victim, only an aggressor.) I really hope you can let your therapist know about this attack in order that he can help you let go of your shame and fear, and move forward with freedom and strength.

I second Attila's suggestion about Survivors UK - My late husband used to work for this organisation and they are bloody marvellous.

Just adding my agreement that you didn't ask for it, it wasn't tour fault and yes it was sexual assault. You have not the slightest thing to be ashamed of. And hats off to you for getting it out there.

Steve
In NO way were you to blame. It is his and his alone to own. I second everything that Attila and pocket have written.
I want to add that I think you are a strong and brave person and applaud your courage in facing this.
In another thread I mentioned a book 'Complex PTSD:From Surviving to Surviving' by Pete Walker. I found this book very useful in coming to terms with the level of dysfunction in my family and the role/s we children were given.
I am interested in your ME. How long have you had it? I was in chronic pain for about 3 years (about 2 years ago) following unmitigated, unceasing amounts of life crap. I could barely walk, both shoulders froze and I experienced random joint pains that seemed to travel around my body. Sleep was pretty shot too.
I'm 100% sure that my body had finally seized up under lifelong stress and prolonged acute stress.
2 years down the line, I'm pretty much pain free and perhaps the odd pain is just an ageing thing. I sought out counselling and it was a good thing.
What I want to say is, don't give up, keep bopping those demons as they rise.
If you do seek out rl life support, you don't have to disclose any more detail than you are comfortable with. You are in control. I once worked with a woman for a significant length of time without knowing the specific details. Good support/counselling will be just that. Being there for you. Believing you. Validating you. And helping you to take back control of your life.

It should read From Surviving to THRIVING……..sorry

I came on here a while ago to ask what this thread's all about, and why the title, I think I probably ran out of internet allowance before I got an answer. Don't most people come from dysfunctional families?