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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Flying monkeys

115 replies

Chamonix1 · 04/11/2015 13:45

It's been 10 days since either me or dp have had contact with his toxic parents, of which we have had a huge bust up with, due to dp making 1 almost negative comment to his mother and his father going crazy over it because she cried all day, thus resulting in an angry fil at the door at 8.30 at night whilst we had friends round telling dp that he had "upset his mother" blah blah blah and she was destraught blah blah blah. Basically I lost it and told fil they need to back off and that dp had hardly said anything worth all the drama and he was an adult who has an opinion; so what?
Fil then took it further telling me to wind my neck in, asking me if I'd taken all my "medication", telling me to watch out and throwing the whole "blood is thicker than water" crap at me. I'm not going to lie, I was pretty blunt with him and told him dp feels trodden on by him and his wife, that we have tried beyond belief to get along with them and that it was never enough, I got upset and I cried whilst fil laughed at me telling me I was crazy.
Dp then told his farther via email he wasn't welcome at our wedding, very simply that he didn't feel it was appropriate considering how little he thought of his future wife etc, fil responded being all nicely saying it was up to dp, but he should think carefully about his decision to marry me, referring back to the things I said to fil. He genuinely believed that because I had had 1 fall out with him that dp would leave me!
Now we have in laws next door neighbour calling up telling us that dps parents are very "disappointed" and asking to come round and speak to dp, of which he's allowed!
I'm devestated that this is continuing and that it's only taken 10 days for this to happen, how predictable. Dp feels he needs to stick up for me so people don't believe what his parents are telling them, I feel it's pointless and defending ourselves in this situation will get us nowhere, his parents are using these people as a tactic to et to dp.
I'm fuming, I feel like ringing the in laws up to tell them to stop involving other people in it but I know it'll get me nowhere.
What do I do? Right now I just want to move house!!

OP posts:
OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 17/11/2015 09:31

chamonix, you get through day by day. Hour by hour if you have to. Lots of tea. And remember your true, loving friends.

Not everyone in life is nice. It really hurts when you come up against it for the first time - that malice.

But keep your feet on the rock. Your DP loves you and takes your side. Remember, your DP was highly skeptical of his parents in the first place. He warned you by his behaviour. People who know you, know these isn't true. (mind you it's shit when people are spreading rumours and they get back to you - I think a number of us have had that experience :/ )

if you can, get it firmly into your head that this is not personal. Write it on the wall if you have to. They would have hated anyone in your shoes. This is actually not about you, it's about their warped ideas. It may feel personal, but their behaviour would be applied to everyone in your shoes.

Keep your child away from them. They are far too toxic. You're finding yourself in the hole that far too many people find; that they have to be tough because certain other people are being shits. A lot of us have been there, lovely. It's a horrible shock.

Keep going hour by hour. And yes, that therapist sounds good. Keep reading Toxic Parents too (she also did another one, Toxic In laws)

Also - moving may not be a bad idea. It's amazing how life goes better once you are away from poisonous people.

FantasticButtocks · 17/11/2015 09:53

They are already ruining your wedding - and they're not even coming! These messages from his aunt are presumably reinforcing to DP that he's done the right thing. He is right to not allow his parents after what they've said about you, to attend your wedding. But now this has to stop. He needs to stop discussing this with people anymore and give you both a break from this shit before your wedding day.

This creation of a shitstorm just before your important event is not just bad timing. It is sabotage. They are ruining it. Their drama is trumping your wedding. I think DP needs a sentence up his sleeve to say to anyone who wants to discuss.... How about: I'm afraid my parents have repeatedly expressed opinions which are offensive, making it totally inappropriate for them to be at our wedding. Can we change the subject please?

Aussiebean · 17/11/2015 10:16

There will be a moment when it hits you that their behaviour has nothing to do with you.

It is all about their need to control your dh. You are a threat to that because he has shown that he is willing to put you before them. That can not be tolerated because they believe his life exists to please them.

Therefore they are on attack mode.

This is not about you, but their sense of control.

Sanchar · 17/11/2015 10:41

I have had similar with my in-laws (except mil who is lovely and divorced from fil) Everything was my fault:

dh didn't do something? My fault

dh didn't go somewhere? My fault.

dh didn't phone often enough? My fault

dh didn't toe the family line? My fault

It took years for dh to see it and now he is only in regular contact with mil. I haven't seen any of them(except mil) for about 7 years now.

On my part it pissed me off no end that I got the blame for dh's decisions but I cared not a jot what they said about me to their relatives, those people are nothing to me and their opinions are nothing to me either.

HazelBite · 17/11/2015 10:42

OP my PIL's did not come to our wedding, I put myself into a mindset that I didn't care DH was upset and angry but I told him I wasn't upset and that there were plenty of people there to wish us well. which they did.

It is really up to you to be strong for your DP, it can't, mustn't upset you, by not coming they are the losers, their behaviour will look very petty,
You are his future, don't let their bad behaviour taint it or your big day.

Wipe your eyes, get a grip, and say "Fuck them"

In other words stop caring about them, because thats what they are feeding on the fact that you care!

Have a wonderful wedding dayxx

FantasticButtocks · 17/11/2015 10:57

They are managing to make your wedding all about them - whether they attend or not, it is all about them, their drama. I bloody hope DH sticks to what he believes, and doesn't give in to these absolute fuckers!

mulranna · 17/11/2015 12:26

I would also move the goal posts. If they do "apologise" now - in order to get re-invited to the wedding it will be fake - they will do it just to sabotage your day.

Look at the next two weeks as taking a single step every hour and every day away from the toxic and into freedom.

There is no other option other than NC - start it now.

Dont let them sabotage from afar with flying monkeys.

I would even be tempted to send a discreet text to all your guests to say that PIL will not be attending and you do not want to discuss it on the day. This will draw a line under it and save a lot of diversions on the day - allowing you to focus on the nice bits.

Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 13:11

Thank you everyone, I'm here reading all the comments and taking them on board.
Now to be utterly unreasonable!
I feel SO let down by dp, I have got into this mindset that he should be putting his parents straight, outright tell them this is HIS choice and that they need to quit blaming me. I feel hurt that he is physically unable to do this. And now I feel guilty for it, but I can't help feeling it.
It's made me realise that he can't even write down on a piece of paper "mum, dad this is my choice and my choice alone, stop blaming my wife to be and realise this issue was here long before her. I don't want to hear anymore rumours, you know the truth"
I don't know WHY I feel he should do this. I feel I've been chewed up, spat out and laughed at and that I can't stand up for myself because it will just reinforce the horrible things they are saying.
Right now, I don't want to get married.

OP posts:
Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 13:12

Also have got hold of a therapist, dp will be seeing him alone.
Me after as we can't afford £90 a week on 2 hours of therapy.

OP posts:
Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 13:27

I've done something stupid and just don't want to say.
After hearing that they are telling everyone I've torn their son away, that I won't let them see their granddaughter, that I am jealous of their relationship with dp and that it is entirely my fault I stupidly messaged them.
Saying I never meant to get in the way, that they can see dd through dp and their relationship has absolutely nothing to do with me.
I did it because I was distraught and thought it the was the only way to show everyone that I'm not the unreasonable one, that I've never stood in the way.
Dp's parents instantly messaged me, even though I said to sort it with dp and I was no longer involving myself (they know deep down that I am the one who usually organisises things not dp, hence them messaging me!) and want to see dd.
I ignored it and told dp that they wanted to see her and now they are having her this weekend, for 3 hours.
Dp told them they could, he fears being dragged to court or being blamed by dd in the future that she doesn't have a relationship with her grandparents.
I'm hurt. I feel like I was hoping dp would say no to them, stand up and say that he doesn't want anything to do with them, he hasn't said that he's just handing dd over. I'm an prat. What a fucking idiot.
My mother thinks they are being very manipulative and backed me into a corner and thinks allowing small amounts of access and having nothing to do with them personally is the best thing to do.
She told me to put my white coat on, deal with them like I would someone with mental health issues, to not take it personally and just hand dd over every now an then so they can't blame me anymore.

What have I done.

OP posts:
OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 17/11/2015 14:09

oh chamonix .... i know you feel terrible, but if you can make this the last time they see your daughter.

You are never going to earn their approval. Not by letting them see their GD, not by anything. You come no # 1 in their son's life (as is right) and they are never going to forgive that. If they don't blame you because they see their gd, they will blame you for something else. You can't do right, here; and given how they are, they are not safe people to have around your daughter.

Please, after this no more contact. Protect your daughter. she will need protecting

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/11/2015 14:41

Chamonix,

Your DP needs to get it into his head that in the UK grandparents do not have automatic rights of access to their grandchildren. IIRC I have mentioned that before. Your mother's logic here is not appropriate either. His parents are not people that can at all be reasoned with. It is NOT your fault or his they are like this; their own birth families did that lot of damage to them.

If they are too toxic for you to deal with they are certainly too toxic for your child. They have done a great deal of emotional harm to you both; you simply and absolutely cannot let them see your child.

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they’re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents’ (and society’s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate firsthand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children’s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

If you do both want peace from these people you all need to go no contact with them. I am not altogether convinced even now that your fiancé could cut them out of his life.

They were not good parents to the man you are planning to marry; they are not good grandparent figures to your child and will do similar harm to her as they have done to your fiancé. Protect your most precious of resources from these people. You will come to truly rue the day you allowed them any access whatsoever and you will kick yourself roundly.

Such people like his parents will take a mile; they will ignore any boundary you care to set and the emotional harm to her will be done right in front of your very eyes. They have already overstepped here by messaging you back rather than their son. They will continue to do so, they will take your actions and use those against you as well.

This excerpt re narcissistic grandparents could help you as well:-
"You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your grandparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more".

You can and should now renege on this arrangement made with them (I sure as well that they did message you back immediately; they were waiting for that).

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents’ (and society’s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate first hand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children’s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

Your DD will NOT blame either of you for protecting her from her malign and toxic grandparents. Blood is not binding, you are protecting her from bad things.

ReggaeShark · 17/11/2015 14:52

Sorry OP but are you sure you want to marry this man while these issues remain unresolved? They are showing you how things will be and your daughter is going to get sucked in and used.

Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 16:25

I want to marry him but I don't want to be made to feel accountable for the breakdown in relationship they've had with his parents.
And I don't want to see them again, they make my stomach turn.

OP posts:
OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 17/11/2015 16:53

Have you both been able to talk about his parents honestly? saying how you both feel, what each of you wants regarding them and what will happen? (and your daughter regarding contact with them).

Right now I think that's your number one priority. Talking absolutely honestly to each other. Nothing off the table; even total NC for you both or alternatively, full contact. Even delaying the wedding.

If you can work this out together, you will have a far more solid foundation together actually. It can act as a (sad) sort of cement. But it takes a lot of courage and facing difficult stuff ... and both of you are hurting so much right now.

This isn't the way it should be in the run up to your wedding.

But it is what it is.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/11/2015 17:02

"I don't want to be made to feel accountable for the breakdown in relationship they've had with his parents".

Oh please for the love of all that is pure put such mad thoughts out of your head. What relationship have they had anyway with these people; one where its all been on their terms and theirs alone. Its certainly not a two way street when it comes to his parents.

You do realise the general rules for dealing with familial relations goes completely out the window when it comes to parents like his.

You won't be made accountable at all; they have caused this by their very actions. This is not untypical of how such toxic people behave.

I would agree that full and complete honesty is the way forward from your man in particular because these are his parents; at the very least both of you must present a united front. Does he still want a relationship of sorts with them. If he still expects them to apologise then that will not happen ever.

FantasticButtocks · 17/11/2015 17:20

I'm sorry but if his parents are too difficult/harmful for you to be with, and they turn your stomach, I'd say they shouldn't have your DD over by herself. If they don't behave with respect towards her mother, then they are not fit grandparents.

How has your DP got it into his head that they will take you to court for contact with dd? Unless they had sole care of her regularly, and you suddenly cut them out of her life, I very much doubt they'd get anywhere. If he is afraid of them, how dare he use his dd to placate them. Talk to him this evening and get him to cancel the arrangement. You need to get past the need for them to see you as reasonable. And don't offer up DD to try to get them to see you are not the cause of the trouble. They will see things in exactly the way they want to see them, no matter how many hoops you jump through. Try to prioritise your DD's wellbeing over making them see things your way. They never will.

ifyouregoingthroughhell · 17/11/2015 18:01

Is not taking your feelings into account the only trait your DP seems to have picked up from his parents ? IYSWIM.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 17/11/2015 19:01

He overrode your decision to protect your DD by keeping her away from them. He would rather sacrifice you and her than suffer their anger.

That is bad.

Are you really going to let him take her there at the weekend?

Given a choice between what you have stated is best for you and DD and what his parents want, he has chosen them.

In my house that would cause the mother of all rows.

OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 17/11/2015 19:27

Her husband is struggling a great deal too and vacillating a lot. But he's doing his best:

Dp then told his farther via email he wasn't welcome at our wedding, very simply that he didn't feel it was appropriate considering how little he thought of his future wife etc

Dp feels he needs to stick up for me

He's pretty much sick of his own parents and seems to have washed his hands of them

He's facing the loss of almost everyone, except his auntie (bless her). Unfortunately toxic sharks tend to want to draw the worst blood around the biggest celebrations, it's really no coincidence this has happened now. He's under immense pressure from all sides, along with facing loosing a lot of his family/family type friends. It's easy to understand why he's wavering ... but he does need to stand up for you and most of all his daughter, now.

As I said above, really think the best thing to do is to talk to and listen to him, absolutely honestly even where it hurts, and thrash out a way forward now. Ideally that involves your daughter being kept very very far away from them.

Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 19:40

Still here just spent the evening throwing up. I can't deal with the stress.
Sorry.
Fil wants to come over tomorrow night to apologise to me.
As if he would ever mean it. I think he's gone beyond that.
Dp is very hurt. He's like a scared child whose lost- I'm not angry with him I just want to squeeze him until he pops and tell him I'm here for him.
This is so hard for him, he's put his foot down once and they've pushed and pushed and he hasn't got the strength to stand up for me each time they behave unfairly.
I'm a shakey, exhausted mess.

OP posts:
mulranna · 17/11/2015 19:53

As predicted they will fake an apology to manipulate their way back in to control and ruin your day and the rest of your life.

As I said up thread move the goal posts. No apology needed -

NC is the way forward

I would say too little too late.

Look what they have done to you. You are close to cancelling the wedding or having a hideous day - don't let them do this to you.

Put the distance in now - if they miraculously change in years to come revisit it now.

They can't put the genie back I the bottle - they have bad mouthed you to everyone already - are they planning to retract all of that

Chamonix1 · 17/11/2015 20:05

I can't believe they don't think they need to apologise to their son.
I can see he's very hurt they don't want to.
I don't want to see his fathers face.
They have said some unforgivable things.

OP posts:
Aussiebean · 17/11/2015 23:53

Your problem is that you are thinking of them as rational people. They won't see the light, they don't think like others, they can't be convinced. They are the parents who will hurt their children and not feel remorse.

Take it from someone who is your dh with a toxic mother.

They will have no problem saying horrible things to your dd about herself, and about you.

There my come a time, no matter how much you love him, where you tell him that you will not allow your dd near them. Then you will have to be the 'bad guy' in the eyes of awful awful people. But you will also be your dds protector from growing up like your dp.

Aussiebean · 18/11/2015 00:12

Your other problem is that there is a very good chance that he will always put them before you and dd.

Part of your counselling needs to be about that BEFORE you get married. Or else you will always be feeling like this.