uh-oh I feel trouble brewing...

[poppiesinalinewithtinsel]

At a family do 3 years ago my BIL (my sisters husband) who doesnt 'do' children lost his temper with my DS1 (who was 6 at the time) and picked him up by his throat and threw his across the room. Neither DH or myself witnessed this but found DS1 crying in a corner a few moments later with red marks around his throat By the time we managed to ascertain what had happened BIL had gone.

I telephoned my sister the next day to talk to her about it (I was on the phone for 1 1/2 hours to her) and basically she said that it was DS1's fault because he shouldnt have wound BIL up. WTF!!? I put my view across very plainly and ended up saying that we would have to agree to disagree as I didnt want to fall out with her about it.

We havent seen my BIL since. I have seen my sister. He doesnt normally come to any family do's because he doesnt like being around people.

Anyway, I seem to have landed with hosting Christmas afternoon with the family round my house. I assumed BIL would not come as per usual which is fine by us.

Sister has announced that yes, he will be coming.

DH says he is still waiting for his apology. This could be a very interesting Christmas afternoon.

It sounds like he has had issues and I'm shocked if your sister expects to be able to brazen it out unless he has had some help of which you are unaware. She should have approached you and asked rather than just assumed he could come along. How did she "announce it, could you respond in the same way ?

tbh I'd be very surprised if your son really has forgotten the incident, perhaps put it to the back of his mind and is more vague in details, yes, but he hasn't had to face this man in the meantime. A friend's dh teased ds in a way which for most kids would harmless but scared him and I'm not sure the passage of time will make him any more relaxed about it. Will this prevent your other sister coming, think you should present a united front since you have done no wrong ? Personally I think the potential fall out now is preferable to a tense Christmas. Good luck.

Hey my dh has had me by the throat. Would you have me call the police?

I don't agree with any man holding anyone by the throat. But, you are a grown woman and this was a small child. Huge difference. And if you stay with your dh, that's your choice. Poppies' ds might not get any choice about having this man in his home.

OK. I suppose I have forgiven my dh but I will never forget. But he was and is my beloved dh, not really the same thing as Poppies BIL.

I guess all I am trying to say is Poppies can kick up a huge fuss as you all say you would, or she can reluctantly let this man into her house and make sure he doesn't get near the children thus allowig her family to enjoy their Christmas.

With regard to ds, there is no harm in letting him know that BIL is not liked or approved of so he doesn't feel undermined in this matter.

HANG ON!

it is her sister we are talking about.

it is totally unacceptable behaviour.

but to bar him from your home is effectively to cut your sister out of your life.

so. i would send a letter, outlining your feelings about what happened, including what a lose lose situation you feel you are in.

i would expect a full apology and acknowledgement of what happened being unqualifiedly wrong.

and I would never ever ever leave him alone with my children ever again.

sorry, no man like that would be allowed in my house. your family comes first not your sister.

Poppies, how does your DS1 feel about this man coming over for Christmas?

She's not cutting her sister out of her life.

Her sister refused to acknowledge that her husband did something wrong. How can anyone ever justify doing anything so aggressive to a 6 year old. A 6 year old. Her justifying this violent is cutting herself out.

Poppies has done nothing wrong, nor wants to do anything wrong. She simply wants to protect her family, and not have added stress on Christmas Day. She didnt create this situation - her BIL did, and her Sister re-inforced it.

I wouldnt have him in my home. I wouldnt want to have to provide extra precuations in my own home to stop my children being or feeling threatened.

I know I'm rather late here but FWIW I agree with the vast majority of posters here who are aghast at this man coming into Poppies' home.

If, when it'd happened, he was immediately full of remorse, if there's never been anything remotely similar before or since and if, off his own back, he had suggested seeking anger management, then maybe the whole "family" getting together thing could have been salvaged.

But he wasn't, there was and he didn't.

Now everyone is supposed to pretend it hasn't happened.

The possibility of it happening again in a house of watchful adults may be remote, but why should that mean he is actually welcomed and included ? What's more, it is equally true that he might get "wound-up" all over again with disastrous consequences.

Think about a full house, full of noise and people, with several children ....... shrieking, bickering, crying, running about, shouting, making lots of noise, messing about with their food etc. Most people - to a degree - would get "wound up" in such a scenario ...... I know I would (being the sort of person who usually prefers peace and quiet) though obviously I don't take to throttling, or throwing kids across the room.

I'd have said the chances of him being "wound up" again are pretty high. Maybe he won't physically assault a child but perhaps he will be verbally unpleasant instead ?

And again, what if your son's memory is prompted by his appearance ?

Sorry ..... but in the total absence of any sort of apology or acceptance of responsibility, someone like this would NEVER come in my house again. If that meant the rest of my family took against me then so be it - their ignorant attitude would matter very little in comparism to my child.

Wow! Didnt expect my OP to cause such a discussion!!

Dumbledoresgirl is right in the fact that he isnt a psychopath just a grumpy old man who doesnt do social gatherings very well and small, noisy children even less. Which is why it is beyond me why he wants to come!!

I have asked DS1 if he remembers Uncle XX. He says he doesnt know who he is. I showed him a photo. He doesnt remember him. I asked him if he remembered anything about him at all. He said he didnt and then got suspicious and asked why I was asking all the questions . I just said that I just wondered that was all and the subject went onto something else.

Re: my other sister. She has let the incident pass and has no intention of bringing it up again. She just doesnt leave her children unattended around him. She is aware of how my DH feels. It was her that rang me to inform me that BIL would be attending as it was her my other sister informed when being asked about how many of her family were coming re: numbers for food.

Apparently, I am now told, BIL has been on antidepressants and had counselling. I do feel that he is trying to improve himself (if thats the right word!). Maybe thats why he wants to come. Maybe he is feeling a little more in control of things and feels he can face a family gathering. I don't know.

I am still not going to leave my children unattended around him whatever happens.

I do appreciate everyones comments btw.

I am still that he thought he did nothing wrong and that my sister defended him.

but poppies, even if your ds doesnt remember the incident, you have told two of them to steer clear of him and you will keep an eye on the other one.

why should those two kids have to "steer clear" of someone in their own house on Christmas day? and why should you have to keep an eye on the other one in his presence? thats not fair on your kids and certainly not fair on you.

"He's just a grumpy old man who doesnt do social gatherings very well and small, noisy children even less"

Pah, yet more excuses. I don't personally give a toss that "he's old and grumpy" - he has shown himself to be dangerous around small children and he has done this before. He made that "dislike" crystal clear to your son when he grabbed him by the throat and threw him across the room. You are making excuses for this man. This man attacked a defenceless child who was six years old at the time, one who could not hit or answer back.

He may well have known what he was doing at the time, that possibility cannot be ruled out by you.

Even if his issues are more under control these days there is still no reason for you to allow your children to be a part of a social experiment to see if he behaves. He has to date shown no remorse to you as a couple for his actions towards your child. He may well feel that he did nothing wrong that day hence no apology - another uncomfortable thought for you.

He knows he's got away with what he did. He is a bully who makes you all walk on eggshells.

There is no justification for his behaviour - how many more times does this have to be said?.

Why should your children have to have him in their house/their sanctuary at all "just because it is Christmas?".

What's your husband's take on all this now?.

Poppies,

You also wrote the following in one of your earlier postings:-

"There will be no apology because neither sister or BIL can see that he was in the wrong".

And if that is not disturbing in itself I don't know what is.

... if anyone ever did this to my DD I don't think I could be held responsible for my actions

There is simply no excuse for your BIL's behaviour, and that he would try and blame your DS is a very bad sign.

Poppies, this is tough for you, but I don't think it's extreme to not want a man who has been violent towards your child in your house. In fact, IMHO I think it would pretty irresponsible parenting to allow such a man back into your house. Imagine if it happened again, and this time a serious injury occurred- how would you feel?

As another poster has said, if he apologised, perhaps attended anger management classes and made an effort to make amends then perhaps you could consider building bridges, but this has not happened.

I don't think it's enough to tell your DS that this man is not liked or approved of and let him come 'round anyway as this is a very inconsistent message to send him- actions speak louder than words!

Honestly, if this man thinks it's OK to physically abuse his nephews then I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that he had abused your sister and her children.

My stepfather seemed like a very nice, if grumpy man to a lot of people, but he abused my family for years. Just bear that in mind.

A horrible situation as its family members but to echo other posts, you have to think of your ds in all this. How would you feel if your husband allowed someone who had violently attacked you with no remorse to come into your home? And it is sending a mixed message to ds re right and wrong. You and you dh are there to protect and support your son and his needs and his wishes should come first in this situation. I wouldn't have them any where near my son or my home regardless of the family connection unless he is willing to at least apologise for what was totally unacceptable behaviour and talk through it with you which is what he should have done in the first place. But that's just me and we are all different. Its not about cutting people out of your life but you do have a duty to your son one your sister should understand if she doesn't already. I hope you manage to find a way through this and resolve it ahead of christmas.

I wouldnt let him come, firstly because what he did was so obviously wrong and there has been no apology, and secondly i think the child in question will be v v nervous having him about

Message withdrawn

He is a child abuser, pure and simple.

Call in social services (anonymously if you prefer).
If he's violent with other people's kids he's probably violent with his own. As such, faliure to act on his violence makes you complicit in the (potential) abuse of his own children.

Personally I'd beat him to death with a brick if came near my DS.

I have anger issues with bullies, so you if you think I'm being extreme.

Hi, I am coming to this a bit late but did want to say a few things.
Poppies, I am wondering if your sis is a bit cowed by your BIL, if she is, this might be why she has 'accepted' his behaviour (IYSWIM)
Is there any chance your DH could speak to your BIL? Obviously only if he can keep his temper...
If not I DONT think you are at all being a coward wanting your mum to say something, whether it is to prepare your sister for a call or to actually tell her herself.

You are in a very tough situation and I wish you all the best in whatever you decide. I am probably going to get shouted down for this but I have to agree with Dumbledore's girl, people are not always one extreme or the other, the world isnt made of lovely nice people and people who lash out at every opportunity, and as you are the only one who knows the full situation once you have decided how to make it safe for your DC's then I think you should be supported in that.

Good luck

"I guess all I am trying to say is Poppies can kick up a huge fuss as you all say you would, or she can reluctantly let this man into her house and make sure he doesn't get near the children thus allowig her family to enjoy their Christmas."

Just reading through the postings, came across this gem.

Apparently Poppies choices are between:

A: Making a huge fuss [and displaying the sort of protective behaviours which should be second nature to any parent]

B: Allowing her family to enjoy Christmas. [regardless of her own feelings about having an individual with a history of violently attacking children enter her home]

Sod the family. Protect your children.

'If he's violent with other people's kids he's probably violent with his own. As such, faliure to act on his violence makes you complicit in the (potential) abuse of his own children.'

Pile on the guilt, why don't you

Have only read the OP but no...I would not have this man in my house. Ever. Your boy was 6 - so he's 9 now. He needs to feel like his house is a haven and safe place for him - he will lose that if you allow this man back in. I would ring your sister tomorrow and tell her sorry, but her husband is not welcome. It'll be hard - but I don't see that you have any other option.