DH expects me to become the cleaner in the work holidays- does yours?

[Millie3030]

So have a few weeks off work now and enjoying time with DS, playing, reading going to farms, swimming, arts and crafts days, out and about and bonding with my little guy.

I work longi(ish) days and it's a real treat to just be off, wear jeans, not be dressed and out the door by 7am. Our house is quite tidy, most people say it is really tidy, it's not, we have a play area where DS can go mad with toys, the kitchen is pretty tidy and clean, and lounge is tidy and hoovered twice a week. now I know I'm off work but when this happens do you then become the main cleaner?

My DH has always kind of hinted/suggested that the house should be sorted while he is at work. I'm running around after a toddler and now feel I have to make the house spotless for his return. This week the dishwasher has been unloaded, beds made, dinner cooked and cleaned away while he puts DS to bed, washing done, house hoovered, is that enough or do you do more? He will say "but you are off, you should be doing more than me".

Basically am I lazy cow? Or should I say "I'm off work chill out!"

This was because last month I came home from work at 8/9pm he had been with DS all day (he has one day off in the week and works at the weekend) and the kitchen looked like a bomb had hit it, i did say bloody hell look at this kitchen, he was sat watching telly and said he had been busy that day and would have got round to it.

So when he's been looking after DS for the day, he can be 'busy' and not get round to clearing up the kitchen, but you can't be 'busy' and not get round to cleaning the shower at his request?

Anyway, there's a difference between not cleaning a shower and actively leaving the kitchen in a mess. It's not like you left the shower in a mess.

My DH is a teacher and I have told him that I want the house tidy when I come home from work and yes, I do expect him to do more than me

Whenever there is a SAHP thread there is usually a general consensus that the SAHP should do more in terms of cooking and housework because they're home during the day whilst their partner works.

The same theory applies towards my DH during the summer holiday in my eyes

Huge difference- he made the kitchen messy, I assume you both made the shower messy?

And messy shower- how bad was it?? I think I rarely clean our shower, just sort of deal with it as I go along...is it a daily job??

I have told him that I want the house tidy when I come home from work

Writer, you are lucky your dh thinks this is ok (presumably he does think this is ok?). I wouldn't. I work less hours than my dh (and he earns more too) and if he ever commented on any aspect of the housekeeping or told me he wanted the house tidy when he came home from work, my jaw would hit the floor or maybe I'd laugh. I am an adult in a relationship living in my own home. not a child or an employee to be told what to do.

This isn't a thread about SAHPs, the OP is WOHP who has some time off. That is completely different.
(It isn't really time off fully though - she's using that time to potty train her son - which is pretty demanding)

Millie, I don't think there is any point in trying to talk about this with your husband. Fundamentally your disagreement is on two things: he thinks you should take care of everything at home, and he none of it; he thinks he gets to dictate what you do with your time, like a boss, but you aren't allowed any say in his time.

The reason why you won't get anywhere is that he won't even admit to those attitudes so that you can then point out why they are wrong and harmful. They are basic, ingrained, unconscious, untouchable beliefs about "how things are" that he can't even recognise, let alone question.

I don't think the speech you drafted above about what you had been doing all day on Monday is a good idea because nothing you can say will win you respect from him, he is hardwired to expect you to be a work horse and yet still find it naturally effortless. Also it implies you have to justify yourself to him.

I bet you didn't even think for 5 minutes of asking your H to train, or help to potty train, ds. I bet it didn't even cross your mind. You just assumed you would do it all, didn't you?

you're lucky then wrtiterwannabe, cos i'd tell my dh to go fuck himself if he told me something like that

I think opening a conversation with 'What exactly are you unhappy with me about?' is doomed before it even starts. It hands him a lot of power to criticise and put you on the back foot.

san - my DH wouldn't have to tell me because I know housework needs doing

Him on the other hand would be quite happy to sit watching the cricket all day and wait for the 'housework fairy' to do everything.

I have a fridge magnet which says, "Sorry, you must be confusing me with the cleaner we don't have" and it pretty much sums up our perceive roles when it comes up housework.

That's why I tell him because Lord knows nothing would get done otherwise

Ps) In OP case, she should tell him to bugger off. I probably should have said that in my first post. I'm definitely on Op's side

I'm with Sanfairyanne I couldn't be arsed with all the discussions, reasoning & explaining. I'd just tell him to fuck off and sort it out himself if he was that bothered.

Seriously. Stop with the angst and justifying how you spend your time. He isn't your boss.

Millie, I think bottom line is that you have to decide what you want. Your list of 3+ and 11- for the marriage is pretty telling, even if you throw out some of the -es because you decide you were just mad when you made it.

I think you need to take an 'overall' look at the marriage. The housework issue is just a 'symptom'. In a working couple there is (usually) so much time you spend apart during the week that often the large issues are minimized because you only spend a few hours a day/week dealing with them. Most of your time is taken up with work hours and childcare hours That's why when one of you is off the issue seems to be exacerbated. There's just more time to think about them and actually see the issue/unfairness.

The time to deal with this is now. Either through counseling or splitting. He's barking orders and you aren't speaking up. Well, you are, it just isn't doing any good. Because it will not heal by ignoring it or barking back and your DH isn't acknowledging that he's part of the problem. He thinks it's all you and it isn't.

I think this is one of the main reasons for the 'silver separation' phenomenon. I know that when DH and I retired (within 10 months of each other) there were quite a few big wake up calls and inequalities in our marriage that had to be (and were) dealt with.

I would just ignore - if he has a problem with any of it, and it bothers him, he can do it.
I admired a friend who just said 'it is not my priority at the moment' and I use that phrase.

Your imaginary conversation is exactly like you accept him as your boss. Imagine he were your junior. Now imagine how you would react to him getting the hump.

Millie -- please bear with me here. I am not posting this in order to kick you when you are down and I hope the following is not too harsh:

Me: What exactly are you unhappy with me about?
-- Don't bother asking him this any more. Beryl is absolutely right here. YOu are handing yourself to him on a plate.

DH: I want you when you are off work to do more, to clean the shower and Hoover upstairs, and do more than usual. You shouted up to me yesterday when I was putting DS to bed, he is my DH too it's not for you to tell me how to parent (I do think he is right with this, I probably was out of order)
-- See how he takes you up on your offer?
The answer to this is 'I am sorry you feel that way', followed by silence.

From this point on you were sunk.

Me: Do you not think given that on Monday i was potty training DH and still managed to make the beds, Hoover, cook dinner, unload the dishwasher and clean up dinner that first day it was enough?
-- Now he has you: you are engaging with him on his terms and he has won this round. Never engage with him on his terms, which you do here. This is you on your back foot treating him as if he has a right to demand and responding as if you have to justify and demonstrate that you are complying with the swishes of your lord and master or find some acceptable excuse to present to him.

DH: you could have cleaned he bathroom on Tuesday whilst DS was having a nap.
--- He again takes what you are giving.
His just playing with you now, waiting to see what you will put in his lap in your next response that he can use against you.

Me: I could have, but I sat down and had a cup of tea and read my potty training book, then you walked in from work. You didn't 'catch me' doing something naughty, I was sitting in my home having a cup of tea. I am allowed to do that, when I am on holiday from work.
-- And there it is: watch what he does to this in his next response.
A good effort on your part, but he still has you on the back foot, you are still engaging on his terms - justifying the fact that you sat down with a cup of tea, and you have not challenged the basic problem here, which is that he wants all the power in this relationship and will get it by enforcing the concept that you are his employee, that you answer to him, and that he has a right to make demands.

DH: (I know he will use this one example) well it's one rule for you and one rule for me, when you came home from work last month you had a go at me because the kitchen was a mess, but I can't have a go at you because you haven't cleaned the shower while you have been off?
- So he basically blows right past your reference to fairness and rationality and reason, and reveals that he is keeping score and playing the 'You are mean and unfair to me' card, just as his parenting comment was playing that card. In his heart of hearts he knows you are scrupulous about fairness and he sees that as a weakness to exploit against you. His radar is out for signs of 'weakness' on your part (and all other signs that you are a normal human being). He does not actually care about fairness at all, Millie (heck, in his heart of hearts he doesn't actually care how clean the house is, truth be told) hence the score keeping. He is one upping you here, not trying to make this fair. He is never going to be fair to you. All he wants to do is win every conversation you have.

Making you feel you have been mean or unfair to him results in you second guessing yourself whenever you want to challenge him for bad behaviour in the future.

As a result of his insatiable desire to 'win' (which will mean you losing every single time, for years and years and years, because he will never get enough of this ego trip) and his refusal to be fair, conversations about issues in your relationship are going to get nowhere. Worse than nowhere in fact -- you are going to be driven mental by this man because nothing that he is doing or saying is rational or reasonable. You know this, deep down, and your brain is desperately trying to find an ounce of rationality here by means of conversations with him where you hope against hope to be heard and understood and to make a change, but for your own sake I implore you to stop. It is like chasing your own tail. Your equilibrium is going to be the only casualty here.

You need to disengage. Try to start doing that verbally, by trying to detect power plays (i.e. comments about cleaning and how you spend your time) and countering them ('sorry you feel that way', 'what a shame you feel that way', etc). Ignore the BS (the details about cleaning, etc., which are really just a convenient handle he has decided to grab onto; he doesn't care about how clean the house is) that he flings at you, and confront the elephant in the room directly -- the elephant is the conceit he has that he rules supreme in this relationship.

I posted earlier that you should go to Relate, but I am now taking that back. You yourself need to do the Freedom Programme with Women's Aid and get your mojo back.

Do not go to couples' counselling with this man even if he begs.

Strikeout surprise there, whoops.

Thank you, so much, for all of your comments, they really help. We had a very long conversation, and I said how I feel, he said how he feels. He apologised for what he said about the cleaning and said he doesn't think I'm lazy, we have agreed to get a cleaner for an hour a week.

I told him that I am feeling very controlled and he said he is trying to get better and wants to work on the marriage, had flowers and a chinese ordered when DS and I got home yesterday. I said flowers aren't really what I want, I want a fair relationship, I want to not feel guilty about what isn't done cleaning wise when you get home.

I spoke to my friends about it yesterday and was very open about how he is, I don't want them to be shocked if we did split thinking he is this really calm laid back guy when I know he isn't. I asked them what they thought of my house (cleanliness wise) and to be honest with me, they all said its spotless. I told this to DH and basically said stop giving me bloody crap over the house, when it's clean. If I want a few chilled weeks at home where the house ticks over nicely, DS is happy and potty trained, dinner is cooked now and then, washing done, then I'm not being unreasonable. He seemed to understand, for now.

I don't think we can split over this reason, but the bigger picture is becoming clear to me. The warning signs you have posted above mathanxiety about power plays are very helpful. Is there a book or a link where there are more of those? I want to be able to spot warning signs of aggression or control.

I would be jealous of you getting more holiday too.

You say when you are both off you are both around to do both cleaning and childcare. ie that one of you is able to look after your DC frees the other up to do some housework and vice versa. To expect one of you to do the same that two of you achieve is not fair.

Is it just the cleaning he is like this about? did he have a spotless home before you lived together?

math nails it

You are falling into an employee role by justifying yourself each time. Remember when you are the SAHP even temporarily during the holidays then YOU are the chief executive of the house. He is most certainly not. Don't allow yourself to slip into employee mode.

I find channeling a quote from Hitchhikers Guide helps ' id love to stay and help, only I'm not going to'

Oh and sarcasm. Lots of heavy sarcasm.

he will control you and continue to belittle you so long as you let him do this.

he has heard you for now but he will revert to type soon enough and start on you again re the housework. You seriously need to consider your own future within this marriage because it is not good at all. My guess too is that he controls you subtly in other ways as well.

You are being controlled and he has the balance of power and control within this relationship.

what needs of yours are being met here with this relationship, what do you get out of this?.

I would suggest you read Why does he do that by Lundy Bancroft because your H is in those pages.

you can split over this because he is not going to change, you are not equal to him. is this really the role model of a marriage you want to show your son so that your son grows up to be just the same as his rotten at his core father?.

if you want a fair relationship it will not be with this man. he will never let y be his equal. my guess too is that one or even worse both his parents behave the self same.

Everything he says is a power play Millie. Not a single word out if his mouth is about the good of the relationship or what you want out of it. All of it is designed to keep you under his thumb.

He apologised for what he said about the cleaning and said he doesn't think I'm lazy

That is not an apology. You have just had a power play done to you. He threw you a crumb and you took it to your heart.

He has merely approved of you, as an employer would after realising he had made a mistake about some employee he had hauled over the coals. He is telling you by approving you that he is the boss here, with the authority to do that. You have seen how he responds to you when you have the temerity to disapprove of how he put DS to bed, right? He wants a one way street here.

Everything he says to you about this that is short of 'I am completely wrong to require that you account to me for how you spend your time' is BS.

You have to stand up and start owning your turf here or he will own it instead, sadly. There can be no middle ground. One of you has to lose here. This is how he has set it up and you need to understand this. He sees you as an adversary.
You told him 'I want to not feel guilty about what isn't done cleaning wise when you get home.'
This is not you in turf-claiming mode. This is you reminding him of the power he holds over you, showing him the target to aim for.

What happened with the Chinese and the flowers and the non-apology is hoovering -- trying to suck(er) you back into trying again to make this work. He is not trying to get better and he does not want to work on this relationship. He said all of that to make himself feel good. Hoovering is what happens after a spell of overt cracking of the whip by a dominator. He has to feel good about himself, so he makes a grand gesture that convinces himself that he is magnanimous to his underlings, patient with their faults, beyond reproach, a decent man who is just trying... If you do not lap up his gesture you will be labeled a bitch or a bitter woman or someone who bears grudges, sulks, is too sensitive, etc. He keeps a scoresheet.

I recommend you read 'Living With the Dominator' by Pat Craven. If you have a Kindle you can download it and it is available in book form too. I second the recommendation of 'Why Does he Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men' by Lundy Bancroft.

The relationship you have here is going to require constant policing by you of boundaries, or it will destroy you. Do you want this?

If you do then you need to re-establish your boundaries first, because he has breached them pretty comprehensively. Start by realising that he does not care about your feelings and does not care how hurt you feel, and does not want a fair or equal relationship -- so no more pouring out your heart to him.

math is so full of good advice and examples.

OP I read your other thread from the other week. I do not like the sound of your DH. Not one little bit. People in relationships are supposed to be supportive of one another and make each others' lives easier and more pleasant, not the other way around. Good luck with it all.

I don't know about books, but I'll give you a very common quote; 'Actions speak louder than words, flowers, or takeaway'. OK, the last two are mine.

Again, love, the cleaning is just a symptom. So is getting a cleaner (although I'm glad you are). The proof will be in whether or not he starts including you in decisions, devotes equal time in the home, respects your decisions and opinions regarding your own life (going out with friends, etc). Watch and see, that's my advice. And ask yourself "Am I being treated like an equal partner?".