Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

[loveyoumore2]

I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

I was brought up in a household - probably rare at the time - where household tasks were shared, my brothers did as much as I did. My DH grew up in one which conformed to stereotypes. Oh dear.

So, don't knock on my door without warning unless you can face an untidy house. But I'm the one who it would reflect on.

(my brothers of course are considered quite wonderful for their ability to cook and iron)

The last flatpacks we had were put together by teenage DD.

Obviously before humans were able to drink milk from other species only mother was able to feed the baby and as a result would have been most likely to look after the kids in family unit. That was necessity and not a choice!

I don't wear makeup, don't fancy men, work in IT and have no maternal instinct whatsoever (I knew that at 12 and at 41, I don't think I'm likely to change my mind now!) I have recently started wearing dresses though if that counts. As for housework, meh... I quite like DIY though.

Fakenamefornow, Cordelia Fine discusses those experiments in Delusions of Gender, and points out some significant issues with them. I don't think that they prove anything at all about humans and any possible innate gender differences.

Wrt breastfeeding... yes women are the sex who are capable of breastfeeding. Therefore breastfeeding is a normal biological function of women who have babies. I still don't see how that proves that women are innately suited to childcare as a result. Just that they have the built in equipment to feed a baby, should they choose to do so.

I work in a surgical specialty, enjoy weightlifting and hate cleaning. Did my penis fall off without me noticing?

If you look closely at the monkey experiment you'll see the interpretation of it was quite bananas (but seriously it was very biased)

I love caring for my child and yes it feels very natural to me as a woman but I'd never presume to tell men that it wasn't natural for them.

I hate housework with a passion and when people tell me that women naturally like it I want to invite them round to my house to disabuse them of such a ridiculous notion.

It's a total myth that men are less emotional. Men are highly emotional, they just express it differently. Like weeping when their team loses, raging, stalking, getting into fights, going down in hail of bullets in Wallmart.

Women are more hormonal are they? What's testosterone if not a hormone?

I hate cleaning. I love diy. I can cook ok. I loathe shopping with a passion. I rarely wear make up and when I di si it's because I'm going somewhere where I know it's the expected norm, rather than because I want to. Babies are boring.

I am a woman.

Personally, I think that women who enjoy wearing make up do so because they have been socialised into it. I say this because the only time I ever experimented with it was my peers at secondary school (girls school) all got heavily into it as young teens so I thought I'd try it too. My own mum never wore make up and I haven't since I was about 16. I remember being shocked at two friends in 6th form discussing how their mums advised them against going out for an evening without lipstick as they didn't look presentable without it.

Also, my 16yo old son does his own laundry, including ironing. He can cook ok. He likes housework about as much as I do, but we both do it because it has to be done. He is far more nurturing than I was at his age!

He is a boy.

Women are indoctrinated at an early age into wearing make up. Women feel better when they wear it because they are conforming to societal expectations and so they don't experience any internal conflict or discomfort.

To follow on from Folkgirl:
"I hate cleaning. I love diy. I can cook ok. I loathe don't mind shopping with a passion. I rarely wear make up and when I di si it's because I'm going somewhere where I know it's the expected norm, rather than because I want to. Babies are boring cute and I loved looking after mine."

See how we are all different?

I have never had the slightest desire to clean or cook in my life. I wish I had then maybe I wouldn't live in such a hovel. I don't wear make up. I am definitely a woman.

At my dd's school I'd say 70% of the parents on the school run are men. Nearly all the mums work.

This is predominantly a different culture though. It makes me wonder whether the mums at home with kids while dads work stereotype is a white middle class construct.

I grew up in a female household. As the oldest child diy, budgeting etc all fell to me. Funnily enough I'm capable of all of those traditionally male jobs.

Even if there is any biological truth in any of the sex stereotypes (ie that if there was a distribution plotted of eg inherent ability for childcare, cooking or DIY, the M/F curves were a bit displaced from each other) - so what? All that stereotypes do is make life harder for the many, many people who don't fit them. They make it harder for people (both men and women) to achieve their full individual potential.

OP, if you feel that you are 'naturally' more suited to stereotypical roles, well great, that's very nice for you. But how does your attempt to generalise help any individual (other than inducing a bit of smugness in those fortunate enough to fit the stereotypes - not saying that's where you're actually coming from)

Oh come on, next you'll be saying that women are biologically designed to wear high heeled shoes...

Oh fgs. It is great, OP, that you and your DH are happy with your life.
That doesn't mean that you can generalise to an entire gender.
I am suffering at the moment because I've been looking at Father's Day pressies in our village - and actually I would far rather have most of them than the Mothers Dat stuff that came my way.
I love building flat pack furniture and am better at it than DH. Don't mind housework, but would be happier with furniture moving.But I did breastfeed for years.., so what to all of this?
And I am fed up at 55 of hearing how women are naturally interested in and enjoy a whole load of stuff that leaves me cold. I am female, honest - periods, childbirth, menopause. But strangely XX chromosomes haven't left me with a desire to cook , do housework and wear make up . Bah.

FolkGirl, that's not necessarily true. You can enjoy makeup for other reasons than being indoctrinated

Jesus Christ on a motorbike with Joseph and Mary in the sidecar.

Every time I think of how far we've come, something like this reminds me of how far we have to go.

I identify with much of the stereo type you describe in the OP, clearly not women do, but I do

It's taken me a while to reply because many women would look down on me for admitting it and it's hard work on MN to post against the norm.

Tbh I don't see me identifying with that stereotype as anything to be ashamed of but it really grates that others had to deny it so vehemently but they clearly see the likes of me as undesirable.

A number of women who have identified as being feminists have seen fit to belittle my life and my choices.

Consequently I get a very anti feeling whenever the word comes up because then the put downs and snide comments start.

I'll not put down anyone else's choices that don't fit with who I am, so having my this done in the name of feminism means that's not a term I identify with, despite probably being in agreement with most of the principles. The principles are good, the practice of how I've seen communicated or practiced when it's come up in discussion turns me right off. I'd soften that by saying that the few have been responsible for this, but they've cut to the core.

If feminism was just about giving women the freedom to choose their lifestyle and not be forced into a given role then I'd identify with it. It just seems to me that the noisiest feminists are those that see me as betraying my own sex for my choice not to reject the life I've wanted and instead choose to be 'progressive'.

No thanks. I'm an equal rights proponent but I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist.

Joysmum, surely you can see that no one is saying that you can't or shouldn't identify with the stereotype. Nothing is wrong with liking cleaning/tidying/shopping etc.

What I object to is someone stating that liking these things is innate, based on sex. That isn't in any way to denigrate things usually identified as female at all. Just simply to disagree that they are innate.

Thing is, joysmum, of course some women enjoy those things. Just as some men do too. It's just that once something becomes associated with 'gender', lots of other things become ascribed to it too. Such as it being 'innate' and it's that innateness that feminism argues against.

As I've said before, feminism (done properly) benefits men and women. It means that single women can go and buy a car without being told to bring their husbands back with them tomorrow (as happened to my gramdma) and it means that SAHDs can go to Stay and Play (or 'Mother' and toddler groups) without feeling uncomfortable and being ostracised/viewed with suspicion (as happened to a friend of mine)

I think perhaps the stereotypes are true (in that more women do enjoy childcare etc) but it's socialised, and gender based - not to do with your XX and XY chromosomes, your oestrogen or your lack of a penis.

Joysmum - where in this thread anyone said that OP is wrong in liking who she is implying that her choice is wrong?

It's a total myth that men are less emotional. Men are highly emotional, they just express it differently. Like weeping when their team loses, raging, stalking, getting into fights, going down in hail of bullets in Wallmart.

Because those are the only ways men express emotion? None of us laugh with our children, none of us miss our parents, none of us feel bitter contempt for comments like that?