Another sexless marriage

[FlimFlamatron]

Hi all, looking for the collective wisdom of anonymous internet folk.

I'm a married guy in my mid-30s; my wife and I have been together for about 10 years. We've got two kids.

The issue of the day is a complete and utter lack of sex, verging now on abstinence. I couldn't accurately describe the frequency, but I think maybe 2 or 3 times in the last year? This has gone on, probably for about the last 2 or 3 years, only marginally better than that for the prior 4 or 5. Only really in the first few years of being together were were really having sex regularly. The sex we do have is singularly awful - all attempts at foreplay are rebuffed, and I'm urged to finish the deed as quickly as possible (which, given the usual frequency, is not that difficult!). She's not interested in any aspect of sex at all, giving or receiving.

Things really fell off a cliff though, once I made the decision (about a year ago) to stop even attempting to initiate. In all honesty I couldn't take the continued rejection, it was utterly humiliating. I knew it would be the death knell of the twice-a-year hurrah, but I had to do it for my own (vastly diminished) sense of pride.

Sounds terrible, but we otherwise have, I think, a good relationship. We're both young, reasonably attractive, have good jobs, a couple of great kids, live in a nice house and we're better off than most. The odd stress or strain, but nothing millions of ordinary people don't face every day. On paper, we're lucky. In case it needs spelling out, yes I more than pull my weight around the house. This isn't an issue.

I do really love my wife. She's funny, intelligent, good-looking, interesting. I love spending time with her. I love going out together, wherever. I just don't know why she's completely given up on this one aspect of the relationship.

We've talked endlessly and openly about this. She acknowledges the hurt and feelings of rejection this must cause. We've talked about possible causes - there's a bit of everything in there. Body image issues, post-pregnancy pain, tiredness, birth control etc. But at the end of the day, she says she simply cannot explain why she does not want to have sex. End of. Nothing to be done. Sad, but that's life.

It is causing huge issues in the marriage. My resentment is building; knowing that this isn't helpful on my part doesn't really stop me feeling it - like her rejection of sex, this is an emotional reaction that I'm not entirely in control of. I've tried taking it off the agenda for long periords to try to take the stress out of the issue for, but in my experience this simply means it gets pushed to the bottom of the priority list below pretty much everything else.

I'm at the point now where I feel I have to make a decision about whether to end the marriage. I can't really bear the thought of leaving my kids, and feel I'm going to end up the bad guy here with friends + family when I wasn't the one who unilaterally declared celibacy.

Is this ever solvable? The more I read about other people's experiences, the more depressed I get that this will ever be addressed, and the more I think I need to act now.

Any advice / thoughts gratefully received.

She's saying that she thinks a confluence of physical (pain post-birth) and hormonal reasons made her tense about sex for a period of time, and that this tension has got worse and worse. Now, with the issue being so contentious, it's morphed into something psychological. Any physical issue or discomfort is gone, but she feels physically stressed at the thought of intimacy.

I'm not sure that's the whole story, personally (though she gets really angry when I suggest there may be more to it). In my opinion we had clear issues prior to kids, kids simply made it worse. Also, if it was simply physical discomfort we could have talked about that, dealt with it, worked around it (there's many ways to skin a cat etc). But she doesn't just shy away from penetrative intercourse, she isn't interested in foreplay at all or receiving pleasure.

I do wonder if she simply wishes to avoid being the instigator of a split, and that, yes, she simply doesn't find me sexually attractive any more. By constantly denying there's an underlying attraction or resentment issue, it basically forces me into making the decision and taking the flak for it.

I wonder if she's taking the passive-aggressive approach?

Could she have emotionally checked out of the marriage (and physically) but not want to take responsibility for it, forcing you to make the decision?

Is she afraid of being on her own? Is she able to support herself & the kids financially? I wonder if these are the reasons she stays?

Op your dp will feel worse about this as it seems like pressure if you mention it, pressure to have sex and pressure that you want sex. The thing is you need to mention it as you want intamacy and she needs to listen.

Is there any way she would be intimate with you without having sex? For example liei g named and just touching and then touching and kissing but knowing that this wouldn't lead to sex. In dome ways srousing her mind and getting her to trust you?

So she acknowledges that there is a problem, and she has what she believes are the reasons for her lack of interest.

Has she suggested any possible solutions? Does she WANT to try to fix it? And not just saying the words, but actually showing any behaviour that indicates she wants to work on it?

To me, no, she hasn't really done anything that shows she wants to fix it, not yet. Partly, I think this is because I only recently became extremely vocal about the consequences of things remaining as they are. She was content to ignore it when I did. I've been fairly open about my unhappiness for years, but only intermittently; I think it was easier to forget about the issue between bouts of arguing.

I think we're now in a place that there are really only two possible outcomes. Either we start to deal with it (and I'm happy for that to take time), or we split. It's front and centre now.

Hi,
Sad to hear. Big hug.
Lots of advice here. Apologies if someone has said this but...make time to do things together, have fun together, hopefully over many months and then through this shared joy, perhaps intimacy will naturally return.
Best wishes,
Hugh

Hey Flimflam,

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said here by some clever people and I can see you want the issue resolved, good on you.

But... you talk about you leaving and being away from the kids - why should you leave and miss out? You both work, and you aren't the cause of the problem or the one avoiding resolving the problem. You could be a single parent.

And check out www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/ as there's lots of others here with issues and advice.

Good luck.

OP I can't speak for your wife, but I was the wife in a similar situation. I'm a lot older then you and I wasn't as disinterested in sex when it did happen as your wife seems to be but I hope my post is of some help to you.

My sex life with my now STBXH was of a similar frequency to yours, about three times a year. I largely lost interest after our second child was born and I can't really explain why. I was exhausted and sex was the last thing on my mind. An early night for me meant catching up on some much needed sleep or reading for a bit rather than having sex with my husband. When I got a break from looking after the children there was lots of housework and chores to catch up on and if I felt I could have a proper break I didn't want to have to tend to someone else's needs when I was spending so much time looking after the children's needs. I needed a bit of time for me.

At the time I considered my husband to be a good decent man, I didn't have any resentment towards him. He was good with the children and did his fair share. Looking after the house was largely my job but he worked long hours running our business so I didn't really have issues with that. I loved him very much and was still attracted to him. We had what I thought was a good relationship. My husband was good, considerate, attentive and affectionate in bed. Me not wanting sex very often was in no shape or form a reflection on him.

We talked about the lack of sex. He didn't pressure me but I knew he would have liked more sex. I thought it was an issue but I didn't think it was a problem. It turns out it was a big problem but he didn't make that clear to me. He thought he did make it clear to me and I thought he was prepared to accept not having sex anywhere near as often as he would have liked because he was content enough with the rest of our relationship and I knew he wouldn't leave.

So then I discovered that he was cheating on me. I think he was that entitled he would have cheated regardless of the state of our sex life and it turned out he had repeatedly cheated on me but that's not relevant to the point I'm making.

The point is that when I discovered his affair we discussed our sex life properly. I'd had it pointed out to me how rejected he must have felt and I hadn't considered how it had felt from his point of view. If I had known it was that much of a problem and how he felt I would have tried to see if we could have come up with a compromise that we could both have accepted. I didn't think for a minute that my marriage was in jeopardy because of our sex life.

You shouldn't give your wife ultimatums that your marriage will be over or you will cheat if she doesn't have more sex with you but please make sure that your wife does know that this is a huge problem for you. My husband thought I knew it was a problem but I genuinely didn't realise how much of one it was even though we had talked about it.

Please tell your wife how it makes you feel when she rejects you and say that despite all the things you love about her, and tell her them, you can't live like this. I hope if she thinks she could lose you that she will at least try and look into improving your sex life.

But please whatever you do, and you sound a really decent man so I hope and think you won't, please, please don't have an affair. I hope you are able to sort things out.

A question for anyone who has been in the position of the OP's wife: How can your partner communicate that the lack of sex is a genuine and serious problem, without it sounding like an ultimatum?

What could your (generic 'you') partner say to you that would make it clear this was a problem that wasn't going away, and needed to be resolved - not just ignored until the next conversation?

Just wanted to say thank you for these contributions, particularly @iwashappy (great post overall, and sound advice).

This struck me, because my wife has said things along similar lines.

"I thought he was prepared to accept not having sex anywhere near as often as he would have liked because he was content enough with the rest of our relationship"

To me, this is a bit of a pivotal insight, because it shows exactly how both sides think. For me, the fact that my wife is great at a bunch of other stuff isn't really relevant, and can't compensate, but like you, she appears to think that her other qualities are sufficiently redeeming. To her, my anger is evidence that I don't sufficiently appreciate her other qualities.

To me, sex and intimacy are one of the pillars of the relationship. There are multiple pillars, but the absence of any of them is a bit of a lethal failing in a marriage, and tends to overwhelm whatever else is present. It's not that I don't appreciate her other qualities. I do! But this is too important to ignore.

Your last paragraph totally sums up why I had to end my relationship OP.

really, really tough one (still). I agree with you re: the pillars thing but laying out the choice of no sex or no husband I can't even begin to make that decision :(

I sympathise as I'm in the same position. My husband is asexual and doesn't want to improve things. My self esteem is at rock bottom as it seems the kind affectionate man I fell for has gone and I'm left with an unaffectionate distant and sulky stranger, he blames my grown up children and says while they live in our house he can't and won't be affectionate to me and I mean even a hug. Considering my options I don't feel I can continue anymore.

"Addressing the problem", whilst necessary, could be a huge ask. It might involve being articulate and assertive about deeply distressing medical problems that affect your libido and mental health, and which might not be easily fixable or even fixable at all, or perhaps require surgery. That means articulating to yourself things you might try to avoid thinking about. If you're already feeling miserable about them, then making yourself a patient with all the attendant inconvenience and humiliation, can be really grim.

Then there's the tension and dread you've built up - is that fixable?

The damage to the relationship - can that be fixed? Or will exposing all this make you more resentful and anxious? Do you go to counselling? Do you force yourself to levels of frankness that you're uncomfortable with? With a partner who has probably not always said the kindest things, because that's what we're like when we're feeling rejected and frustrated.

Then there's knowing that doing nothing at least left you with the fantasy of being fixable. To try and fail means you can't get away from the fact you're a damaged freak.

And if that's the case, what happens to the ultimatum? To sex being a main pillar of marriage? Is divorcing someone who has tried and failed tantamount to divorcing someone who has become ill? What about for better or worse?

I'm in exactly the same boat, and am reading a lot of the replies with great interest. In my situation we've got to the point where I'm not actually allowed to talk about the issue as this creates more pressure which makes the problem worse. I think this is the hardest part as I have no one in Rl that I can talk to. When I have managed to speak to my partner about it her response to whether she still wants me is always 'well I'm still here aren't I?'

In your situation, I would think my marriage is gone. I can understand (at least I try) a woman in her 30s not feeling desire for sex any longer. I cannot understand what kind of human being does not make any effort to provide some level of affection to her husband. The thought of you having sex 3 or 4 times a year after much rejection to be 'urged to finish the deed' makes my skin crawl. It is cruel to say the least.

@KatelynB

Yeah, I definitely don't pretend to have a monopoly on the truth :) As you say, what we have IS a difference in values, in the relative importance we ascribe to things. My views do not constitute cold fact, certainly!

But I think most people would agree that self-determination in a relationship is important; she has the right to behave how she wishes, but she can't insulate herself from the effects her behaviour have on me, and my reactions. In short, she can take sex off the table; that's her right. She can't force me to be happy about it!

@Bollard

Your point is something I have wrestled with a lot. If this is entirely psychological on her part, in a way she cannot help, then am I simply failing as a husband by making it such an issue? You could certainly argue that, I'm not blind to that possibility. The only answer I have to that is that I'm not perfect, and like everyone, I just want to be happy; I don't have infinite reserves of patience and wisdom.

I agree that a sense of urgency might change things. She might realise what she has with you. So talking of a possible break up might put the cards on the table. The issue is there, postponing it only makes it worse.
If you were to find your sexual fulfilment somewhere else, and discuss it prior with her, would your wife agree to it? Then you may be able to have the best of both world (dream on maybe). Good luck.
I was the wife in your case. I just had gone off my husband due to him not helping out, him not being able to understand me emotionally and him putting pressure for things to happen.
I am now in a relationship where I feel understood and things are back on track. My understanding is that for a woman, the key to you-know-what is to make her feel that her emotional needs are met. But then again, there might be also physical reasons in the mix.
big hug

I think this comes up a lot (hah sorry) - the fact that human beings are wired differently, and when we set up our home with one who is very different from us in an important regard, then our home is at risk.

I was/am in an incredibly similar position (2 kids under 6, together 10 years etc). We went 3 years without sex. There was a close family bereavement. Trying to conceive our 2nd took a long time and was pretty awful in that it was completely just going through the motions but very pressured at the same time.

So, yes there were some reasons she'd be off sex. But I don't think she really realised how damaging it was to me. A bit like your wife sounds, she didn't like to even speak about it. Other than that though, we get on, are generally on the same page regarding the kids, do stuff together, share the work out at home and so on. I did think we would end up having to split up. But I decided to keep going. Partly out of hope, and partly because for me I couldn't justify splitting the family up and not being with my kids day in day out over a lack of sex. I fully knew that this is not ideal, and that sex and intimacy, for most people, are very important in a marriage. But the alternative seemed worse. If we were arguing a lot, or there was an 'atmosphere' all the time then I would have split up because that would be damaging for the children.

Along with this though, it did make me realise that to a large extent our happiness is dependent on ourselves not other people. I think I'd lost a bit of myself in the whole work/family thing and didn't do so much just for me. I took up a hobby again that I really enjoy; made sure that we both had time to do our own thing and live a bit.

We are slowly recovering a bit more intimacy which is great. I don't think it will ever be the sex life I'd fantasise about, but it's something, and on the whole I think we have a decent relationship. It is such a personal thing though, and may not be enough for many. And I could well be kidding myself and in another 15 years could be bitter and massively regretting not splitting up earlier. Who knows. All we can do is what seems right to us at the time.

If its medical/psychological she has to be willing to tackle it with her GP. You forcing the issue will hopefully be enough to make that happen if a) that's really the case and b) she is motivated to save her marriage. To be honest, I think this is the option with most hope for a good outcome and the saving of your marriage.

The alternative is that she simply has a low libido or she doesn't fancy you any more - and in that case I think you have to be prepared to leave. A lot of people seem to have low libidos and its never that obvious at the start of a relationship, which must be how so many people who really like sex seem to find themselves stuck in sexless marriages. But you throw in a kid or two, sleepless nights, work, money worries, weight gain, lack of personal time or whatever and suddenly you realise that this person you're married isn't that bothered about having sex and that given the choice between getting it on or getting an extra hour's sleep, they're going to take the sleep every time. So someone like that has to WANT to please their partner and be prepared to have sex in the name of the greater good of the relationship. Can you see your wife coming to this conclusion, or accepting that that's what its going to take?

Rocket, my wife has used that exact phrase also, "Well, I'm still here".
OP, no advice I'm afraid, just another bloke in a similar position, resigning myself to the fact it'll never change.