Are the "rules" different if DH is a "genius"?

[EquityDarling]

name change for this one...

I have been together for 8 years (married for 6) to a DH who is generally acknowledged (although not by himself) to be a "genius". With a few details changed to avoid outing but convey the essence, he is a renowned artist (in a very specialist field), a widely published faculty member at a top university and a leading campaigner on a particular political/social issue who is often interviewed in the press/asked to give evidence to select committees etc. His intelligence and talent was obvious from an early age, making him something of a freak child, which his lower middle class aspirational parents did not deal with well - they were embarrassed by his "weirdness" and constantly put him down so that he is utterly lacking in self-confidence and can have trust issues and react in a very hostile manner to anything he perceives as criticism. He has an incredibly strong sense of justice and fairness, hence the campaigning work in an area which is often difficult, unpopular and makes him lots of enemies.

I am definitively NOT any kind of genius, just an averagely bright professional from a happy, stable family.

DH and I in many ways have a really fantastic relationship - he is so fascinating, massively enthusiastic, really interested in my views on everything and flatteringly attracted to me sexually. But when he goes through a period of extended stress, which is happening at the moment, due to various issues of principle related to university politics and the wider issue on which he campaigns, he can be very difficult to live with. I have no problem with the things which are upsetting him - he is quite justified to think they are shockingly hypocritical and corrupt and I share his concern about them - but his anger and upset has simply taken over our lives to a degree which is really driving me down. He has immense energy, hardly sleeps and wants/needs to talk about what is bad and wrong and how down it is making him, around the clock. I feel as though the only place I can get any peace is at work.

We have had some counselling (both joint and separate) and I have found that my best coping mechanism is an approach called "radical acceptance", whereby I have to let him talk it out without trying to 'solve' the problem, accept that if we go out with friends he will often spend the evening staring angrily at his phone, posting furiously on various specialist discussion boards, or ranting about how awful something is until it fills up the whole of the space. The same happens if we go to see my family or if he and I go away for the weekend. Basically I accept what I can't change and draw a few agreed boundaries where I can, for example he no longer calls me at work for long rants and has mostly stopped waking me up in the middle of the night to tell me things. I (sort of) knew this was what I was getting into when I married him and I know he genuinely cannot help it, but I am beginning to doubt my ability to see this through in the long term, particularly since the issues currently enraging him aren't going to go away.

I do not believe this is emotional abuse as it is not calculating or manipulative, he is simply overtaken by the strength of his emotions and finds it very hard to self-sooth, but I am wondering whether I am letting my own needs slide to a degree which is damaging. Please be gentle lovely Mumsnetters but advice would be appreciated...

I knew a mad genius - I met him in a mental hospital He's a bipolar business guru. During his manic episodes he launches ground-breaking initiatives of utter brilliance, attracting millions in funding and effecting genuine changes in the way the world does business. By the time I met him, he - or, rather, his wife - had learned to identify the point where his mania was about to spiral off into crazy fantasy. He'd check into hospital for intensive therapy and a medication review and pick his projects up again once he was lucid. He told me he didn't have many downs, but I don't know how true this is as he claimed to have no memory from them.

I think there is an element of 'madness' to all creativity, but lack of self-awareness in one's own creative process can lead to degeneration as well as destroying other people's lives.

I also think this is going off-topic, albeit in an interesting way. Equity says she wants to figure out to manage her own life more successfully. It's probably clear enough that I don't see the mystification of genius as particularly helpful in that respect!

I do think you need to separate off the 'genius-ness' of your Dh from his personality. They are different things.

My Dh could be described as a kind of genius. He is a surgeon and this week alone saved 2 lives - one patient was bleeding out, the other was a 3 YO child who was unable to breathe. I would give you more details of how he did this, but I can't as my Dh simply came home and said after each "phew - that got a bit hairy" or something similar, and gave a couple of details. After that, he chatted about important things with the kids such as whether Iron Man would win against Magneto. That is because he doesn't need to expound about how brilliant he is.

It sounds like your DH doesn't understand that flooding people in a tsunami of intelligence and opinion doesn't necessarily work for everyone. You are very down on your own intelligence, and yet I suspect you would be far more fascinating to me than your DH. Do you ever get a word in edgeways when you are with friends?

I'm feeling sick reading this. My DH is just as described. He has a brilliant mind. I have posted before about his rants and my feelings of suffocation and exhaustion. Right now I can't even find the words to express how this thread has thrown up feelings of dread and darkness. And feeling trapped

We have children. I have recently come to the conclusion that this was a big mistake. Too late now. I slepwalked into this. I ignored the warning signs and now I'm paying big style.

OP, only you can know. But here it is from me. Over the years I have been ground down by all this shit. Sometimes it's been fine. But on balance, it's not been worth it. It's been like a dripping tap. We've been together 15years. Over the last 4 or so years I've realised what a shit I'm in. I realised that I was using alcohol as a crutch. When I cut it out, it was like letting something out of the bag. It's a constant gnawing in my brain. It makes me feel sick. It's always there. Any love I had has been crushed by the weight of his personality/genius/mental health problems. Doesn't really matter what it is, I think it's too late.

Fwiw I would run for the fucking hills and tell him to sort himself out.

Bit of background: he was diagnosed with bipolar many years ago and put on lithium, and ADs and mood stabilisers. He still rants and raves. Now he thinks the diagnosis is wrong. It could well be, I think I'm past caring. He thinks it might be PTSD from his very abusive childhood. Could be?? The psych tends to agree with him. He's in therapy as am I. The thought of leaving him fills me with relief and fear. Relief is obvious, fear is because I don't know if I could face myself when he crashes and burns. I'm pretty sure he would. I'm all he's got left and its a fucking big weight.

A simplistic little response from me and haven't read all the thread but, one thing that jumped out of your OP is that you choose to tolerate him behaving badly (absorbed in his own thing, unsociable, unfriendly even ranting at people) when you go out together and with friends and family. That's unacceptable to everyone.

When he's in that state, he should recognise it, what intolerable 'company' he is and choose not to go out and blight your social life. He has the awareness of his state of mind / behaviour doesn't he, so why on earth would he choose to impose this on people? So selfish - except it doesn't benefit him either. Surely he'd be better ranting online at home?

Gralcik I would put it another way: during this business guru's productive periods he would launch brilliant initiatives, attract funding and change the world, until the mania kicked in and he lost touch with reality.

In other words it's talent, intelligence & hard work that produced the superlative results not the illness. Without it he would still have been equally creative. It's a common superstition and one that bipolar sufferers often subscribe to. I think it's probably quite consoling to think that the minuses of illness are balanced by the pluses of creative highs. I don't personally believe it though.

I was married to Prof Genius for 27 years before I threw in the towel. I was able to support his career, enable him to function and have a lovely home and family while he dedicated himself to his work. He had manic highs and terrible lows and I nurtured him through them all feeling proud of myself. We went to Buckingham Palace together and he got a major honour. Then one day I realised I had lost respect for him as a man, and had lost myself along the way. I was becoming resentful and bitter and behaving in a way I was ashamed of.
For several reasons I ended our marriage and moved out. He has prospered and won another international prize last month. I still worry about him and he goes about looking uncared for and sad just as he always did. But he isnt my responsibility any more.

Be careful OP. You have signed up to a long sentence and only you can look after your own needs. Be a little selfish when you need to and don't let him off the hook completely. He is capable of normal domestic tasks if he needs to to them, but if he can manipulate you into doing everything so he can concentrate on his work then he will!

cheese you sound very low, hope you are able to leave him because it sounds like you need to do that for your and the DCs' benefit.

Cheese I thought just like you do that my genius would fall apart when I left him. He certainly threatened all sorts before I left. Then he cried a lot and leaned on my adult children very inappropriately. Three months later he met a nice accommodating lady who has taken him on and he appears to have moved on seamlessly. She doesn't run around after him as much as I did so he pays a housekeeper instead. Much better idea!

These men dont fall apart that easily it is part of their manipulation that you think they wont cope without you. The helplessness is part of the act. I bet he gets his grant applications in on time when it matters!

TopOfTheCliff, did you have dc with him, and does he expect them to look after him?

You're right, of course, Twinkle, but the mania (whichever mental disorder engenders it) affords uncommon energy & single-mindedness. Wikipedia says: "the current view of psychologists and other scholars of genius is that a minimum level of IQ (approximately IQ 125) is strictly necessary for genius, but this level of IQ is also sufficient for development of genius only when combined with the other influences on individual development of genius identified by Cox's biographical study, namely opportunity for talent development and personality characteristics of drive and persistence."

I'd go with that. Like a very high proportion of posters to this thread, I imagine, my IQ is well over 125. I do not, however, boast abnormal drive & persistence - though I am a stubborn bastard - and am not a genius.

Cheese, your post is incredibly moving. Escape must be possible! Perhaps start a thread?

X post!

YES and YES, but DC1 is just like him and flatly refuses to be his nursemaid. DC2 is like me and gets worried and mothers him but understands she is at risk of being exploited. I am there to provide a respite and she lives away now anyway. DC3 is aware of the issues but has good boundaries. My saying "enough" has given them permission to step away when they have had too much. We talk about it too, (and the other issues including him being a control freak and a bully) so it is manageable. I do feel guilty sometimes I left them to cope with him though. It was the airplane oxygen mask dilemma at the time.

Cheese why do you think it is too late? Is it because of the kids? Is it because you are afraid he would crash? Is it because you fear the financial instability that might result? Please Cheese go to some counseling ON YOUR OWN- to find out who you are. Do you work? If not can you try to find some job? I am so sorry you are in such a situation.
Anyway I have reread your original post Equity, and it seems to me that deep down you started feeling that the best for you is to leave. Your coping strategy is not good for him and it is not good for you. May I suggest that you take some days off and think clearly whether you WANT to set and enforce some clear boundaries to his behavior. Maybe it is not in line with your personality. Maybe you are more on the 'live and let others live' mantra. And hence the best is that you leave him. Maybe I am wrong and you want to try to change your coping tactics - radical acceptance seems to me to be a doomed to failure coping strategy in your case and in any case IMO- like any radical policy to tell the truth.

You know what: it is Ok if you decide to leave even if when you married him you knew how he was; we all change; besides there are behaviors who are bearable at many given points but they are eroding the best good will when they are displayed on a continuum; so really it is ok to leave him especially if there are no kids involved ; in fact even if there are kids it might be OK to leave- (they can't survive in an environment where their dad does not stop speaking/ranting about the big problems of the society when all they will want to do is to help some SuperHero or SuperLego save the world from some baddy). And YES he will survive it. Good Luck.

Wow - I so some work for a few hours and come back to so many interesting posts. It's fascinating to hear about so many similar situations. Thank you everyone - will read properly later but just to say Cheese I hope you are ok x

My DH is a genius. He is also manic-depressive. We've been together for 20 years and have children. We are happy.

I was very struck by something you said about your DH's good behaviour being why I don't persist with trying to get him to take steps to resolve things in the difficult times.

Er, that's your problem right there.

I have never had to persist with trying to get my DH to take steps to resolve things.

He wants me to be happy. He knows his behaviour is emotionally draining for me. He works hard on his own mental health because he values my mental health.

He has tried many different things over the years. Some work better than others. I don't research them, I don't look up therapies, I don't recommend therapists, I don't book counselling for us, I don't book anything MH-wise for him, I don't suggest he eats healthily, I don't suggest he exercises, I don't suggest he gets enough sleep, I don't suggest medication.

He is an adult. He is a genius. He is perfectly capable of working it out for himself. And he does. Mainly because he cares about my feelings.

I would have left him years ago if he was any other way.

Ketchup I think what you are saying is extremely sensible. I don't think I'm a genius, nor is my husband, but we are driven successful academics who can get a bit obsessive about work. I think having a family grounds us, as others have said, but more than this, if we are (and at times it has headed that way) damaging the mental wellbeing of those around us, by our moods, grumpiness or slightly obsessive working, then the onus is on us to change this and take steps- so I do mindfulness, take vits, or take some time out or whatever. Plus my husband is extremely direct and I am with him, both of us might tolerate a day of grumpiness over work, but if it starts to spill on the happiness of others, we tell the other one to rein it in.

Then

You put it so well
That's like it is for us. I don't have the career anymore but still live with depression and what people believe undiagnosed Bipolar or other issue.
If one of us sees the other getting out of control we help each other, or at least tell them they are out of order, or to rein it in.

I think for your own mh if you are in this situation of being with a genius you need to be able to do this. You need to get to this stage because then it is easier to live with and of course more understandable and not so personal.

there's something a bit and very un-intellectual about a (I'm guessing) white middle class male, a member of the ruling class, ranting about the injustice of it all. Perhaps he has had a flash of insight:i white educated males are the cornerstone of the entire system... and they want to keep it that way otherwise they'd lose their special genius privileges that allow them to behave like pricks. Very few women would get away with this shit.

Very few women would get away with this shit - I was about to post that very thing. Very few women would even try.

It's very Famous-Five-Uncle-Quentin, isn't it?

Mental illness can be used, described, depicted in art to great effect, but that does not mean that madness and creativity are the same thing
I wasn't suggesting that they were.
My understanding is that for some people there is something very creative about the liminal zone before a person crosses over into psychosis or mania

That is why sometimes sleeping pills and valium can work. It is a treatment for the acute phase rather than a ft long term alteration of mental state. Often a good sleep can take the edge off. Then getting sleep regulated again brings you back from the brink so to speak. A lot of creative bipolars who have found treatment will admit the manic phase is not really helpful at all. And they get nothing at all done in the depressive phase.

Agree with others about manic symptoms the pressured speech, relentless "orating," reduced need for sleep, almost on/in a different plane of reality, greater ability and desire for consuming and producing vast amounts of information, etc. Everything points toward bipolar. From what I understand, there are those whose everyday, "normal" levels are very high on the (low) depression-(high) mania scale (often of the highly successful, driven, "genius" types although of course not all geniuses are of this type of personality/behavior). He may have notched up "higher" into a very real manic episode.

I'm merely impressed you've managed to get your dh to go see mh professionals, mine won't see anyone or consider taking anything and he won't accept that even any psychiatrist could possibly know enough about his particular problems to help him. i wonder if your dh on some level just doesn't accept that he needs to change, because he's so brilliant. it sounds like you otoh have been trotting around mh people for a while and nothing is changing.

You may find your dh is particularly defensive about the idea of Aspergers. Indeed, you've seen that already. Doesn't mean you and the counsellor mustn't consider it. I agree about the question of co-morbidity, which is increasingly being identified by psychologists.

Interesting reactions of children.

If you add autism to the mix, however, you can end up with the genius not, and I believe genuinely not, understanding the impact he has on others.

Fing wearing.

And I have never believed they fall apart if you leave. They find another sucker.