Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships - thread 31

[CharlotteCollins]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books:

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites:

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

I think we point out to our DCs the twattish behaviour we see in life - not in their dad, but other places. We treat them in a way that makes it clear that they are important and they are not responsible for anyone else's behaviour. We know a lot more about this shit than our parents did, I reckon.

And when they are adults, we encourage them to go to the MN relationships board if there's anything they don't want to talk to us about.

Yes! Cannot underestimate the power of MN.

I am positive I never would have left H without this board forcing me to realise just how abusive he was.

Fairy our DC will learn this from our behaviour. We have shown them by our actions that it is not acceptable to live with someone who treats you in this way. We will teach them.

I need the faith right now! [grimace]

I'm worried that when they've lived with it, and we've lived under it so successfully (minimising and accomodating walking on eggshells to not confront for fear of worse, etc) these are such huge endorsements for this kind of behaviour that from little has been ingrained in them without their conscious involvement, they just feel or do it that way now without thought.

I recently asked one of mine about CS removing DC from homes where abusive father cannot be stopped by DM. They said, good DC should be removed from a DM who cannot stop an abuser!!!!!!! What woman can 'stop' an abuser? Well thats more likely to be someone who's not being abused, i.e. someone who can see their behaviours clearly, oh yes and NOT SCARED of them?! I tried to say well surely this is exactly why DC at school are supposed to go to teachers and other adults if they are being bullied... because they are being bullied, therefore too scared face the bully or stop it and risk worse if they do, hence the adult/teacher (CS/Police/Courts) steps in to act on the bullly to put a stop to it to protect the victim.

These things are far from simple for a DC to just know. Getting the internal strength to feel their rights in the face of always having had them removed in preference for a 'males' rights. Many of these DC grow up believing the crap the FW spouts and abuse in the young is on the rise.

Feeling deflated at the battle still going on... we do have power to show them the way, a healthier way, yes, but the power of the abuser is also very strong and normally the more appealing?! (gifts, treats, oh ignore her you're with me now we don't have to take any notice of that, she's x, and y, ad infinitum)
the poor kids.. are they not better off in one camp or the other rather than getting two strongly opposing messages enough to tear their MH apart? The abuser appeals to the weaker morals and indulgences the DC crave from an abuser FW father. Its an incredibly strong message and he simply becomes the lovely guy that's been horribly treated and caught up in the middle of everyone else's awful behaviour?!!! thats really whats going on..

are they not better off in one camp or the other rather than getting two strongly opposing messages enough to tear their MH apart?

I worry about this too. Would it not be better that they didn't see hi at all, rather than seeing him intermittently, but enough to have them always wondering why their lovely daddy has been treated so badly by mummy.

They are so young so will never remember his abuse of me, apart from the final physical assault.

I hope I am not causing them harm by divorcing him.

I think I agree with your DCs to an extent, fi: if the mother can't protect them by leaving, then sometimes they must be removed for their safety.

I do see what you mean about putting the responsibility on the mother rather than the abuse to change his ways, though. I guess at least they weren't saying that the children shouldn't upset the abusive father and it's their fault if he gets angry...

It probably is better that the DCs have no contact or very restricted contract in some cases. Have you talked your circumstances over with WA or a lawyer to see how possible that would be, fi?

Can I ask a question please. Do you notice the same traits of fwittery in your in laws. Last few days I have realised how controlling my mil is. Both are control freaks, and now he is upset by her behaviour towards me lol. Had enough .

i find it hard Charlotte to reconcile DM & DC being abused that the answer is to separate DM / DC rather than remove the abuser from them all to save them all the abuse? and orders on HIM to stay away, at least this way the poor DC don't end up with no parents! which would be far worse

I was thinking more along the lines of if he goes near the house then he will be arrested, etc. As I'm thinking surely this is the nature of abuse that we cannot get rid of them, and cannot always see it, so should DC lose their DM because of the nature of abuse? Just does seem very wrong to me, exaclty the same as DC being builied at school being expected to keep the bully away? Some of the worst bullies are their closest 'friends' - 'frenemies'.

I have to say Beezle that FWs father is the same or worse as FW. Something very very deeply wrong in there, and the DexMIL is a bully without boundaries too. But then I come from a crap family background too. I think it made me aware of what to look out for tbh. i recall my dm saying 'you'll understand when you have DC' - well I thought it even more outrageous once i did!

Difficult to not get drawn into stirring up sympathies for them when you go down the route of considering their own abusive childhoods i think. He had my sympathies and its why he got away with so much, no more. I hope you feel the same, and welcome Hope you are finding some answers here.

It would be wonderful to be able to force abusive men away from their families, it really would. But who has the power to do that? If a woman says, "I want to live with him; I love him; I can manage this," then who has the authority to say, "No, I think you're saying that cos you're scared and suffering from Stockholm syndrome, so I'm going to remove him anyway"?

It is shit. It really is. But there are limits to what the state can do. It can intervene to protect children. It can't protect adults who don't admit to wanting the protection.

Sorry, I feel like I'm lecturing. I'm not. I wish it could be different.

I agree Charlotte its just wrong isn't it! but i think why does it have to be the DM who have to defend herself against a man that she's scared of and poses a risk to. There's all sorts that can be done, including forcing the man to stay away from the house after a report of incidents,etc.

They have the authority to rip the DC from their homes/DMs, instead of going for FW. Perhaps women who do not do this are as vulnerable as the DC and also need protecting? Vulnerable adults. Yes absolutely , gonna stick my neck out and say that action should be taken directly against the FW and not down to an abused woman to decide what happens to him. Its his fault and only he should suffer and the other's be supported.

Its a shame there is no limit to what the state can do when it comes to men seeing children (locking them in bedrooms) so that the Peodo can be allowed to be with his DC.. The state can do all sorts that i've seen.

Why is the woman even in the conversation ? She's nothing to do with what he decides to do and how he behaves.

and certainly, how it would be done... who knows, but i know there are thousands out there paid much money to come up with solutions.

its all down to him, and not her. Temporary removal whilst investigations, psychological assessments, and tests put in place with breaches punishable like any court order.

yes, i do wish it was different. At the moment all of it is down to the woman as we know. Its all wrong and at the very least needs reviewing in the light of the realities of abuse.

Maybe easier for me to get mad at the system? and remove the responsibility from me for pursuing him for whats he's done, when its just not in me.

You're right, fi, too many people across society seem to put pressure on women to change how men behave and absolve the men of any responsibility, which is a nonsense. How can people not grasp the simple concept that everyone's behaviour is their own choice?!

Too many people still have no understanding of the dynamics of abuse. I told my SIL that I was leaving her brother because he is abusive. She had always supported me against him, but she rejected it outright. To her, I think, an abuser is a sadistic woman-beater, a caricature.

Even women on here, asking for help and clearly in an abusive relationship, have no idea that an abusive man can be nice at times. He can be popular and charming. He can give a damn good impression of sorrow for his behaviour.

I think they are trying to educate the next generation in schools now, but there is so much appeasement in society and so little anger at the behaviour of some men, that any good work done in schools could easily be undone in very little time.

I am still trying to teach DS, who is 7, that what he does is his choice, his responsibility, and he cannot say, "X made me do it. It's X's fault." It's an uphill struggle and I wonder how many opposing views he is absorbing from his dad, school, TV programmes and other places.

The one positive I see is that I am much stronger in my own convictions than I was before I left FW, and I have a FW-free place here where they at least can develop a different ideas of normal. So it is better than if I'd stayed.

(With apologies to any lurkers who gave chosen to stay for the moment - I am only presenting my perspective and not saying what is best for anybody else.)

yes i agree Charlotte and it is still an uphill struggle isn't it, even once we're out, but i guess at least we have the chance to find our voices again, i've been a long time looking for mine and still feel a bit scared at saying 'no'! or to trust myself when boundaries get challenged, andyes, those beliefs that they hold that so and so 'made' me. Its natural for DC for say such stuff and part of the learning of growing.

yes to the 'being nice' the frenemy and the popular and charming, and 'remorse' hoovering and they can still be a friend, which is particularly head-messing, and they love to be the rescuer when you are at your lowest after theyve brought you to yours knees

The time it takes to see all this is invariably long!

there are those of course that do find their voice within it, just not me

tonight and [song] to all xx Fi

DH took the DC today for the weekend - first time he has seen them in nearly a month. He got here at 1pm and instead of picking the DC up he asked me to meet him for a chat. I said no.

He said: Why are you making this harder than it needs to be, and so painful.
Me: The DC are ready and waiting for you
Him: I know, that's fine. When will you speak to me? on Monday (at drop off)?
Me: I don't know. I will see how I feel on Monday
Him: That's not good enough
Me: Fine. Its a no for Monday then.
Him: We have worked so hard and proved so much. But we can't work at fixing us? I feel like you want me to give up.
Me: I'm going out in 5 mins. If you are not here you will have to see the DC another weekend instead.

He arrived within 2 mins. So he had obviously parked up around the corner and was trying to get me out to talk to him before he would take the DC.

I handed over the DC and their car seats, kissed them all good bye and didn't/couldn't even look him in the eye. I then got in my car and drive off so I could get away.

I then had a massive wobble and am freaking out about how he will react to divorce papers when he really does not seem to be getting that we are over. I went for a big walk, offloaded to my brother and my dad and am calmer now. But I still have that huge urge to talk to him and explain to him that its over. I know there is not point because he won't listen to me or accept it. I don't know how else to get out of this. I am fearful of what I am doing and what the future holds.

Name that was a fantastic achievement for you to stand up to him like that. You did great. He was being so manipulative but it's extremely hard when you're within it to not be drawn in, and you weren't. Don't speak to him Monday - don't speak to him face to face at any time when the children are in the vicinity. You tell him you'll discuss things on email or phone or whatever you want, not him telling you. The future looks so uncertain right now, I know, but take things day by day. You can do this. When are they back, do you have nice things to do during the time they are gone?

fi to you too lovely.

They were supposed to be back on Sunday but I compromised and said Monday afternoon instead. I wasn't keen on them being away on Monday as he tends to bring them home late, and they are tired for school the next day. But I said he can, mostly because I need to catch up on some work this weekend and so I specified they have to be back between 4 and 5.

I tried really hard to stay strong against him, and stand my ground, but it was making me shaky and nervous doing it.

He is being manipulative isn't he?? All I was seeing was my poor devastated husband, but his actions don't ever support his words.

I went to my uncles birthday dinner this evening it was nice to see all of my extended family. Tomorrow I am going to work in the day and perhaps go out for drinks with my brothers in the evening. Monday I'll work again. I don't mind as it will make it easier for me next week if I get through some work plus it keeps me busy, but I know he will want to speak again on Monday.

HE just wants to beg me to stay/reconsider, but he is doing nothing about it himself. He wants me to move back in with him into our marital home, 2 hours away, away from family and friends, because it is convenient to him. He would slip back into his abusive controlling ways so quickly if I did that.

Was confuses me is - is he being manipulative, or is he sorry (again)?

Why are the wobbles so big? It makes me reluctant to contact my solicitor again to get things moving. He will be devastated next week if he gets the divorce papers then.

i think you stuck to your guns extremely well Name you should be proud, be that stuck record, and yes like you said [he was just round the corner] all manipulations but you're scared of it and it cost a lot of energy to do, even so you still did it. I believe it gets easier .

I have a momentary lift from the chink Pony

Name, he is both sorry and manipulative. Sorry that you are not toeing the line as quickly as he expected and manipulating you for his own ends. He was just round the corner trying to guilt you into talking to him. He told you it wasn't good enough?? Keep repeating 'I'm sorry that doesn't work for me' and if he's a good guy he'll accept it and try to work things for you/the kids. If he's not a good guy, he'll work them for himself, as he's currently doing.

Have another wee lift fi

Yes - him telling me its not good enough. The old authoritative bully is still inside there. It won't take him long to rear his ugly head again. I have to get angry again, enough to tell the SHL to proceed.

I want to get my kids away from him, I am sure they are happy and having lovely time but I dread to think what is being said/hinted at to them.

We are just so much better without him. We work as a team, my DC get cuddles and told that they are loved all of the time. We are nice to each other and live amongst lovely people. He wants to come and take that all away from me again. Not going to happen.

Can I share some ?

Name I have to keep reminding myself that someone who abuses you, be it verbally, emotionally or physically, is looking to make sure you don't get above yourself. (I only mention the different types because my sister is my original abuser and was/is mainly the emotional type. I still get confused by her behaviour sometimes until I bring it back to this.)

They see someone who has qualities they like and admire - that's what draws them to you in the first place in the case of a romantic relationship. But rather than celebrating them in you they want to possess those qualities. They want them for themselves, and they certainly don't want you to have them, because then they will feel inferior to you. So part of the abuse is all about them ridding you of those admired qualities until they can feel that superiority again. He sees those qualities in you again, and that makes you attractive again so he will promise the moon on a stick so he can posses those qualities again. That's why he's trying to win you back, not because he's sorry and wants ot make amends.

I totally get your feeling of wanting to get him away from your children. My DS2 only sees his dad once a week but I still worry. Yesterday FW said he didn't eat any dinner, which made me wonder why - with a little probing DS2 said his daddy had hit him. Ok, it was because DS2 had hit his daddy in the face, and daddy had responded with by slapping his hand (I'm guessing, from what I've put together) but the fact that DS2 then didn't eat his dinner makes me think he was pretty upset. It's hard when they are little, it's hard to discern the full truth, but all I can be is watchful and aware.

How are you today fi?

Pony - yes it's weird. He used to say he was proud of me before we got married.

I was independent, educated, he didn't need to take care of me like other husbands do with their wives - e.g. I could drive and sort things out by myself. But then we got married and suddenly he was jealous of those same qualities. They are good to have in a girlfriend, like a trophy showing what he can get, and then they are not so good in a wife, who is supposed to be subservient to you and your needs, not earning more than you, and not having more friends or being more capable than you in any way.

Fi how are you doing? Have you thought about doing the Freedom Programme? I started this week and it's very helpful to meet and talk to others in the same position. They can give you strength and validate your concerns?

thats a good description Pony Name

Doesn't sound like he's safe with the DC reacting like that Pony. If it was an out of character reaction from a trusted someone thats one thing, but i do think this is another, we all know that hitting DC can't possibly teach them 'not to hit'!? He's come down to his level instead of being the adult. What would you do if he didn't want to go on another time? I feel like i coerced mine to go i really could actually kick myself for all that effort i put in to engender good rs for my DC, and the joke is i was blamed for trying to isolate them from him - makes me want to vomit it really does. It can't EVER be about their behaviour (even though all the previous contact clearly demonstrates it) - the world is such a fucking arse about face place at times (I mean when court, and frenemies ignorant noseyparkers involve themselves and affect your life so badly ).

Must go an grizzle on my own, so bitter about how all this has turned out and still so hard to face.
thanks Pony day at a time stuff at the moment.

sorrry x-posed there Name but its so right about that, having qualities they want and then being slated for the same qualities.

yes, i did do the FP, i think i take a lot of re-brainwashing! really hard to accept that this was me - feeling stupid!