But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry re your user name error, meat to write youcantteuchthis (autocorrect fail)

Mum replied and was very "woe is me, I don't mean to upset you, blah blah". Never apologised or acknowledged anything of what I'd said to her. I was very matter of fact and non-emotional in my reply. Wish I hadn't bothered! I hope some of your bravery rubs off on me and I manage to cut her loose one day. I do feel stronger just by not letting her upset me, though

beign matter of fact and unemotional is the best way to go, in practical terms.

It might leave a rather piercing sadness that she isn't a real Mum, someone you can truly be close to, but for practical every day dealings unemotional and factual is the best you can do.

I'm starting to think that poor parents often seem to be highly emotional or highly underemotional, either overtly or kind of the opposite- they've withered away inside. They aren't emotionally healthy and mature. Some people use emotion to avoid taking real, reasonably proportionate responsibility.

I hope it's ok to join chatting. Things didn't go so well after my first post thanking you. I could do with some advice about how to go NC.

I have tried to work through things with my Narc DM & SDF but am being met with the usual emotional blackmail, blame and ignoring the main issue. I can't do this any more.

What is the best way to do it? Do you let them know or just stop responding? Also if you have DC how do you explain to them that GP aren't in their life. Is it ever possible to keep contact open with the DC only? The idea of doing this is scary but for my own sanity I need to break free.

FightingBed2014 (brilliant name that!)

The link below may prove helpful to you:-
www.lightshouse.org/how-to-go-no-contact.html#axzz3W5EJo6tU

It is NOT possible to have any form of relationship with a narcissist.

Your mother and stepfather (likely to be narcissistic himself, at the very least he is her hatchet man) may well subsequently try to hoover you back in with unwanted forms of contact like gifts for you or your children, letters, phone calls etc. Do not fall for such baiting; they are acting in their own self interest and not out of any concern for you. Infact I would expect them to try such methods to lure you back into their dysfunctional world.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

And no it is NOT possible to keep contact open with the DC only. It would not do your children any good at all to be at all subjected to the narcissist's emotional manipulations. Also it will do them no good for them to keep seeing you as their mum so disrespected, downtrodden on by them and ignored. They have to be protected from such malign influences. Narcissists as well make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures.

Also if they are too toxic for you to deal with it, they are far too toxic for your vulnerable and defenceless children.

Re contact only with the kids . we tried to do this with the oldest , as she already had a relationship with her grandparents . But it didn't work , because they were just as toxic with her ( in a more subtle way of course ) and tried to use her to get at me and to undermine DDs relationship with us, her parents .

So we had to stop contact completely . I feel really stupid for having tried , given that they were so toxic to adults, how could I have possible thought they were safe with children . Even though we were always there with the children , you can't supervise them all the time . Eg grandmother woudl take oldest Dd into the kitchen " come and help me make a cup of tea" , then say things like

" I'm sure your dad loves you as much as your sister, even though your not his real daughter "

" who do you love more, your mum or your dad ? "

All this while I'm at the other side of the kitchen

So we realised that we coudl never protect them while they still had contact .

How has it affected the kids ? It was easier with the younger children as they have never met them , or only when they were tiny so they don't remember

We have just told the Children that sadly the GP are not very nice people and so we don't let them see the children in case they are horrible to them . That it's very sad to have to do this, as lots of other children have lovely grandparents and we wish they did too . And that if we could change them we would, but we can't . Because you can't change other people , however hard you try . Even if you love them . And that it's not their fault .

Ours kids are not bothered by it at all. The oldest one mentions them about once a year or less. The others - never.

BTW I didn't see atillas lost before I wrote mine, as I hadn't refreshed the page . Interesting that the examples I gave are typical of narc grandparents

StaceyandTracy.
The children won't miss out at all. My 'D'M is a narc, tried to emotionally blackmail me and the DCs but mine are teens and a bit more switched on. The eldest saw her give 'the look' at me once which made me seriously want to wave pom-poms and fist pump! So he's seen her behaviour. My middle one is pretty clued up on how people should act and knows she's not normal. My DPs DM is like a second mother to me, the DCs have seen how lovely she is and how people SHOULD be with family. Or at least an older female family member.

My mother talks to the children about when they were young and how she'd sit on the floor and play with them. She never did unless it was for a photo opportunity. The DCs also remember she never did this. Children are a lot more switched on than sometimes we give credit for.

Attila I really needed to read that today, thank you.

My parents pretty much stole my sisters child. My sister was quite ill after he was born and was in hospital on and off for years . Rather than supprting my sister and her husband so they could keep the child at home , they took him to live with them .

By the time he as a toddler, he was clinically obese, Goo stuffed him with junk food . They refused to take him into hospital to see his mother " in case he caught something " ( it wasn't that kind of ward) .

They persuaded her to stop the child seeing any of his fathers family , because they smoked - not in the house at all , even when he wasn't there. My parents said it might affect his asthma .

Once they had the child , they put huge pressure on My sister to end the marriage . They undermined Her Dh at every turn . Sent the child to a private school , which sister and her DHS could never have afforded.

They sent the child to school early , claiming he was a genius. School kept him for one term them told them to bring him back in a year .

Nephew was very badly bullied at school, because he was so overweight (not excusing bullying ) . He coudnt do sports and Barely walk up the stairs . His GP continued to feed him rubbish and claim it was his fathers family genes .

Nephew was at school with much better off , middle class kids , who didn't accept him. He wasn't very bright. As soon as he was 16 , he left the school and sent to the local comp, which he loved . Still lived with GP.

Sisters marriage broke up under all the undermining from parents . They then claimed that there had been DV and tried to get police to press charges. Failed as no evidence

They funded a long legal fight to stop the boys contact with his father , completely . His father ran out of money to battle, so lost child . AFAIK He's never seen his father since .

GP changed the childs surname to theirs .

Everything they did to the child was all about controlling him, punishing his ( pleasant enough but not very bright , tubby , working class ) father for daring to marry their daughter .

Nephew is now in his 20s , he's hugely overweight , about 25 stone I reckon ( from photos ) . He's had a string of jobs that have lasted at the most , 4 months ( from his linked in profile ) .

Thanks for the response - you are right, I don't think we need to resume contact at all and you are bang on about the siblings; they are already seeing how much hard work it is trying to avoid being the scapegoat/trying to be golden child when there are only 2 out of 4 siblings having a relationship with the parents. The pressure on them is increasing and we are being drawn back into the dramas for their purposes.

Thank you for the responses. It is heartbreaking to see how many other people are living with families like this. It is so sad to hear about your nephew.

You are all right, I need to cut off for the DC too, DM & DSF can't see past their own wants and needs. I feel like such a terrible person for doing this. I have already had a message today to say she can't believe how much I have miss-remembered like I imagined it all. Apparently my depression is obviously making me see negatives. The comments about how I wasn't like this 6 years ago started, in other words its DH fault. I wasn't but then I wasn't part of DH lovely caring family with normal relationships and support back then.

I will probably do it after the wknd as I'm sure other family members will be drawn in to back up just how hurt they are. Just want time with DH & DC in peace over the bank holiday.

I have been following you all for a very long time now, a lot of posts resonate with my own situation. I haven posted or joined in because, to be completely up front and open with you all..its all too much to process.

I left an EA marriage at the beginning of March. My thread is Here

When I was posting on my thread, there was mention of family support and referenced my "arsehole father" and "absent mother"

Since I left my H and have some time to see through the fog that is lifting, I realised they both have a HUGE part to play in my choosing of H and the previous ExH before him.

Gosh its going to take a while to type all this out but I am wary of 1) opening up and joining in an established thread like this with a tale of woe and 2) its going to be a long post!

There are many many issues at hand here. Just as an aside, I have counselling (via my most excellent supportive work-place) all set up and ready to go. So begins my journey to find the real "me" for the first time in over 40 years of existence.

Hi all, I've been toying with posting on this thread for such a long time. I remember my childhood as being good, it's just as an adult that I am struggling. I'm not sure if I am being ridiculous or if my mother is a narcissist....and it's not all the time so question myself constantly...all I know is that it is exhausting!!

Steve! I've just skim read your other post, I've been there too and come out the other side, stronger, happier and better and my DCs are relaxed and happier for it. I do agree with not keeping it a secret because of his sister imminent baby, everyone needs to know and to know its a real break up.

As for your parents, there are some very clever and lovely people here who can advice you better! I'm going through the same myself.

Thank you Kitty, I will post more a bit later on.

To put this into words, is going to be hard

You all seem so lovely here though, thank the deities for the internet and MN!

Steve and Witch, feel free to post. Pretty much everyone here starts with their own tale of woe, and we also all think "I'm not sure if I should be here, I don't think I had it so bad as others..."

Witch your mum may be similar to mine. She can be very nice at times but absolutely appalling at others. I thought she had been a good mum until I had my son. Now I realise how badly she failed me and that I didn't deserve it.

Everyone is welcome to post here. Please don't worry about it being long. We're only sorry that you need to post here, but everyone here knows what it's like to have parents who are blights on your life rather than nurturing.

stacyandtracey how unutterably sad for your nephew. they have ruined his life :(

fightingbed agree 100% with atilla.

Thank you so much, please forgive me in advance for long post.. part one incoming..

I was born in 1970. My mother had escaped a horribly abusive home life to marry my father who "allegedly" had offered her the world on a stick, they were both early 20's. My mother doesn't tell me I was a difficult baby/toddler but my sister was born in 1972 and then their troubles began.

Bit of condensed background on them both is needed here I think;

My mother was born in 1948, the oldest of 12 children. The next child was born when she was 12 years old so each subsequent child born she was expected to help out with. The last sibling born to my mothers parents was two years after I was born. So my youngest uncle is younger than me.

My mother tells me that her childhood after the other children started coming along was horrendous. She was expected to do a lot, she cooked, cleaned, babysat etc. When she was 16 she left school and got a job in a local factory. She was expected to bring home her wages every week (unopened) and give this to her mother. She sometimes opened the wage packet carefully and resealed it so she could buy clothes/sanitary products. She would always get caught out.

(There is a lot more to this ^^ story by the way, she has cited a lot of physical and emotional abuse towards her and her older siblings...she felt she needed to protect them and take the brunt of it for the most part. Its really sad to hear, I have heard a lot of it over the years)

My father was also born in 1948, his mother already a child from a previous marriage (they had divorced) and my paternal grandfather left my grandmother when she was pregnant with him. Hence she was a divorcee (twice) with two children by two different fathers in the late 1940's. It was probably not a great time for her to be this person.

However, my fathers upbringing was a LOT different to my mothers and he was spoiled and overindulged by his mother. He adored her and she loved him. It sounded unhealthy to me from what I have heard but I can understand, in the era they lived in, they stuck together. My Dad is not at all close to his older half brother and I can understand why.

So this meeting of minds came together in the late 1960's my mother flirty and needing to escape, my father aloof and handsome, did all he needed to do to reel her in, wasn't much. Apparently she was pregnant with me when they married in 1969.

So fast forward a little bit, I was already here, my sister was born. There were problems with my sister from the word go. (Transpires she is on the severest level of adult autism there is. She will need constant care for the rest of her life.)

They split up when I was 3 and my sister was 18 months. My Dad had already been royally kicked out by my mother and she was struggling to cope. She craved freedom and no responsibility. My Dad had a good job as an apprentice in the dockyard and loved nothing more than going to football matches and visiting the pub every night after work. He hardly had any contact with us.

When I reached the age of 5 my mother had decided she had had enough, she really could not cope any more. She left me and my sister in the house, sat us both on the bed on a Friday morning and cried and said goodbye to us. I remember this. She then dropped a note round to my neighbours to ask them to find someone else to look after us, packed a bag and fucked off to god knows where.

The problem was that my neighbour had gone away for that weekend and didn't discover that note until the Monday. Me (aged 5) and my sister (aged 3) were left home alone for the entire weekend. We survived on dry cereal.

The neighbour eventually found the note my Mum had left and we both placed into care.

Due to the severity of my sisters condition we were also seperated. we had contact a few times during my very young years but there was never any policy to maintain children relationships with their siblings under the Children and Young Peoples Act. The last time I saw her was when she was around 8 or 9. She was angry and kicked off. I guess it was advised that I didn't see her again as it upset her.

As an aside to this I did go and see her around 2002 but we have not had regular contact since and my guilt about this is enormous. Certain people can ask me if I have brothers or sisters and I say "No" but I ache inside as I know I have her, she is all I have and I will have to go and fix this one day soon.

Contact with my parents throughout my life was inconsistent and sporadic. my father would cancel coming to see me if he had football to go to, or a sailing weekend coming up. I saw less of my mother, she would often say she was coming to see me. I would dress in my nicest clothes and wait all day for her by the window, waiting for her to turn up but she didn't. When she did turn up, she was full of promises, she would have me back with her next month, next year, soon.

I was fostered aged 9 to what seemed like a lovely couple but the foster father began developing a very unhealthy interest in my blossoming body. I ran away when I was 14 and went to live with my mother again. By this time she was a raging alcoholic. It lasted about a year before I was back in care again.

The one person from my birth family who always visited, never let me down and stuck by me, was my paternal grandfather. I miss him a lot, he died when I was 25.

I spent my entire life in care, leaving aged 16 and going into "independent living" which was nothing more than a room in a house, with more people who didn't give a shit.

Enough for now. I'll type more later.

I feel naked now I have posted that

Steve!! I have no words

Steve well done for posting

I know it can feel very exposing to post. don't push yourself, take your time.

Thank you Pocket, have had a little cry after seeing all that written down.

My childhood was ok...no real issues. My dad used mum as a punching bag right enough, but I always felt loved and cared for.

I am the oldest, and was expected to do a lot when I was younger, but my mum and stepdad worked full time so I had to be home to start dinner etc.

Anyway, as an adult it is exhausting! When i met my husband, I had already left home and had moved 100 miles away from my home town. The first time I brought him home to meet her and my step dad she took an instant dislike. My husband has always looked older than his years and because of this, he was obviously lying about his age. (I was 23, he was 30) he also has a daughter from a previous relationship and a very fraught relationship with his ex. She would use their daughter as a pawn (witnessed this first hand) and rarely allowed contact unless H jumped through a million ridiculous hoops, which he always did, then she wouldn't turn up at agreed meeting point. Mum decided that he had to have done something horrendous to the child as no mother would use their children as a pawn like that. She went in for an age about how he was probably a peadophile (sp) and that's exactly what he looked like when he came to my mums house with me as u looked much younger than him. He must be old enough to be my dad! When we first visited my mum, we were in very early "loved up" he had dropped me at home and had gone back to his as he had work the next day. We would text back and forward, never at meal times and stuff, just when I was watching TV...he was controlling apparently. Obviously as why can't he go a day without talking to you...I got a huge lecture about how he was making me subservient and that he was too controlling. Didn't even occur to her that I may have instigated all contact.

When I told her that I was pregnant, having been with H (although DP then) for nearly two years and we had set up home together, she had a fit! Was disappointed in me, wasn't living in the right place, with the wrong man etc etc. My H was obviously pissed, their relationship was very strained from that day. He wrote her a letter telling her how much he loved me and how he was going to take care of me and out child and that her worries were unjust although he understood she of course worried about her daughter. Because of the strain between her and my H, I spent the next 11 years trying to minimise contact between them and keep things smooth sailing. There were loads of "what about me???" Moments through this time, that I think I brushed away due to being so caught up with making sure any visits by her were drama free due to her dislike of my H.

Me and H have subsequently separated due to him having an affair. My mother was over the fucking moon! Did offer me support and a shoulder to cry on, but lasted 2 minutes before the " I told you!!" Came out and the " you should listen to your mum, I'm always right"

Fast forward 18 months and I started a LDR (thread is on here and I was rightly roasted, and ended the relationship) . There was possibility that I would potentially move to America, to be with this DP, albeit a good few years down the line and it was only one of many possibilities for this relationship. My mum went crazy as it would involve me taking the children with me. My older two would be 17 and 16 at least so couldn't make them go if they didn't want to. (Please don't flame me for that, I'm still smarting after the last time ) after many arguments with my mum, she told me that I was very selfish, had no concern about my children, I was a bad mother and I am not putting them first. She would come visit, or help me with childcare and I would take half hour out to go and skype DP...she completely went off on one because I wasn't spending the entire time she was visiting with her, talking to her. That there was no point in her coming here as she is left on her own the entire time...( realistically it was about 30 minutes)

I pressed post too soon