But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

sorry to interrupt but I just need some quick advice re-hoovering
I have a very EA upbringing - and am very distant but not entirely NC with my parents
one of the reasons I feel I cant go totally NC is that the only other family - my sister - has moved to a very remote part of the country and declared herself agoraphobic ( not medical diagnosis - no attempt to seek treatment) in order to avoid...well just about everything really
She is without doubt the most self centred and selfish person I have ever met and this was made very clear a couple of years ago when her behaviour finally caused me to go go NC with her.
She has since made many attempts to make contact and I am now in monthly receipt of what is essentially a family newsletter from her.
Im sat here looking at the latest one - unopened
so my question is
should I just tear it up..
should I bung it in a box in the loft in ase........actually I have no Idea why I'd do that
shall I send it back - unopened - with a note - if so what do I say
or just "return to sender" on the envelope ?

I have no desire to hurt her but cannot any longer be part of her support network which is what shes trying to hoover me back into.

She has not given a fog about hurting you though has she?. She does not care at all for your own feelings and she has not behaved at all "sisterly" to you ever I would think. She is also very much a product of her own parents emotionally abusive upbringing.

FOG; fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies your family of origin have left you and you are mired still in feeling obligation. I would think your role in your family of origin is one of scapegoat, what role did your abusive parents assign to you?. You went NC with your sister after she showed you her true colours. She still sends you crap family newsletters so she is not respecting your own boundaries here at all. This was unwarranted and unwanted contact from her.

I would ignore this newsletter and actually shred it; do not give this any more power now. Do not respond at all to this communication from her, any response from you will be seen by her as a reward so she will then bother you even more. Radio silence from you must be maintained; you must not respond!!!.

Hoovering behaviour like this is not done for your benefit at all; it is done to try and draw you back in.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover. Whatever your sister's overall personality people who are emotionally healthy do not behave like your sister has done.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
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•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
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•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
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•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
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•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
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•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
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•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
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•Returning old items you left behind.
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•Baiting you with drama games.
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•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Don’t Fall for Hoovering Tactics

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behavior. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honored, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

hmm difficult darkandlight. It's clear that you don't want to open and read the letter.

If you want to break fully and completely with her, put 'return to sender' on the envelope with a note that all further communication will be binned. Anythign she sends after that can be binned - she knows the score.

If you want to make it clear that you are staying out of contact for now but not closing the door forever, then write her a small note that you cannot provide support she wants and need a long time apart and that you will be in contact when you are ready. Please do not contact you until then. Letters can then be stored away or binned. Again, she's been warned and you've directly asked her not to contact you.

If you are sort of neutral about the whole thing, pop it in the attic/bin unopened.

Not very nice to keep getting letters from her but there's no real way of stopping them :/

ANY response from you to my mind will be seen by her as a reward because she will know for definite then that she has got you emotionally.

Your sister is already breaking your no contact stance with you by contacting you in this way at all. Keep the control you have, do not give this up to her.

I would burn or shred, I think. She knows why you're no contact, right? So I think Atilla's right, any response will give her a reward, even returning unopened.

Thanks so much for all the advice
I was most tempted to return it..but now I can very much see how this could unintentionally open a dialogue
So after carefully reading your advice I just tore it up and recycled it unread
I guess I'll get another and another and I should just treat them as the junk mail they are...trying to get me to "buy" something I don’t want.
She very much has been trying to Hoover me back in - and this has just been the most recent tactic.
In answer to your question Atilla
I guess I particularly resent her as not only was she the Golden Child - she went out of her way to take no responsibility for anything and do things she didnt want to so badly she would never be asked again- and so a lot of unpleasant jobs fell to me.
I wasn’t a scapegoat because I wasn’t blamed for anything - I was the workhorse - a lot like Cinderella - without the fairy godmother - ball ...well..all the pink sparkly stuff.
She got "given" a lot of stuff I was told I couldnt have..like going to university..(yes I did get the grades I needed)

I'm a long time lurker on here and have just come by to say thank you. The OP has helped me through a difficult confrontation tonight and I used the resposes to stand my ground. They worked their way down the list of typical come backs so I was prepared.

Thanks, Attila, for the check list. 6 out of 10. Background-I have not seen Middle Sister since Christmas '07, not spoken (or mail contact) since Jan '12.

My "good" Oldest Sister called today to let me know that toxic Middle Sister called her. Middle Sister will have surgery on Thursday for strongly suspected (via sonogram and ultrasound) ovarian cancer. She has had melanoma skin cancer as well as (very early detected) breast cancer 2011. Back then, she called me to tell me and I asked if there was anything she wanted me to do for her and she said "no". I had not known about the skin cancer until today. The BC was not hereditary...She had been on birth control pills for 38 years.

I called her.
I know, I know...But I did. I got the answering machine. I said Oldest Sister told me about the cancer, I was sorry to hear that, maybe we could talk, and I hoped she felt better soon.
That was at 11:20am (sorry, I wrote that down ) and she hasn't called back (7:20 pm). I admit I was expecting her to call, but from further reflection, I have come to believe that no, she isn't going to call me back......or she would not have used Oldest Sister as a messenger. Also, since I said "maybe we could talk"- she may flat out refuse that...since I would not accept her (non)apology of "can we get past this?" in Jan '12. The tit for tat vindictiveness.

My dd2 has a norovirus this week, dh started with it yesterday, so I could not go see Middle Sister at this time anyway . Oldest Sister's fil passed away last night so she needs to stay home for her dh (very tough emotional time for him-childhood abuse- even though he is 61, he has never sought counselling). Oldest Sister said she would hitch a ride with various ils after the funeral to go see Middle Sister. I offered to go to Middle Sister's, to pick her up and take her home (200+/- miles).

Will this be a mistake? If Middle Sister does not call me back, then I will presume I am not welcome, and I get that (and I don't want to force myself where I am not welcome). I can go to the town and not see Middle Sister...meet up with Oldest Sister to help her out with transportation (she is very skint and not in great health herself). OS wants to go to Middle Sister out of a sense of doing the right thing to satisfy herself (as a retired nurse-be patient advocate) as a sister-a duty. She is well aware of MS' s narcissistic dismissiveness and has achieved a working level of emotional detachment.

Sorry for the essay.

Well, posted too soon, by an hour. She called back. We talked...about her health, and general catch up stuff like work and friends and even my family (still a little like the interview check list but not as forced as in the past). Not a word about the no contact/boundaries, so it is a bit like continue as if nothing has happened. But in the context of pre-surgery, it was/is probably better that way. I needed to know if I would be welcomed there so I asked if I could come see her and she said yes without hesitation. So the plan of me giving OS transportation sounds like it will be ok. She said she could then see me when I pick up OS, so I am not locked into a time frame (an hour? 2? Ten minutes?) Still "superficial" will be the order of the day.

Hi stately homes ladies

I'm a long time lurker , ive been NC with a whole section of my family for more than 10 years . I just found out last night , completely by chance, that my father died a few weeks ago .

I'd like to talk about it as I know you guys will understand . Is it ok to post here or should I start another thread? I don't want to thread crash if it's not appropriate .

Thanks

welcome Stacey. you are welcome her and this is very much the place for you to feel you can post whatever you need. would you like to talk about it? sound difficult. my father died some years ago after a long time with no contact and it stirred up a lot of emotion.

Thnak you Good, you are very kind

Yesterday I bumped into a former neighbour who offered her condolences as she had seen the announcement in the local paper. I've only seen this Person about 3 times in the last 10 years and she had no idea about the NC so she wasn't being judgey or anything, she was very polite. She asked a few questions eg was it sudden, had he been ill etc . I just muttered a few words and said it was hard to talk about it .

I was very shocked and still feel shaken . Ive only seen him once in 11 years . I had lots of couselling / therapy in my 20 s to try and deal with the legacy of the abuse during my childhood and teenage years .

During my 30s I tried to manage my relathioship with them, which wasn't possoble. I also thought I could protect my kids , but it turns out I could not.

So about 11 years ago I went NC, mostly to protect my children . The youngest two have never met them. I've not heard from my parenst , my sister, or any of that side of my family since .

I saw them all at a family wedding about 6 years ago . On that day my father spoke to me , I said that if they wanted I would see them but they couldn't have access to the children and I wasn't going to put up with any more abuse . He indicated that he never wanted to see me again .

That's the last time I spoke to him

Most of my RL friends , all my colleagues,neighbours etc. think my parents are already dead, as I never mention them . I've learned not to as people judge.

Sometimes people ask about the childrens grandparents and I just say they have none . This is true as DHS are dead and mine are not what you could call grandparents .

We've moved about a bit so I'm not in regular contact with many people who have known me for more than 20 years. Just Christmas card type contact .

So I can't tell anyone in RL. I don't know why I feel so shaken . It's not like I expected some death bed confession / apology

Can I offer you condolences Stacey ? not for your father - but for you,
for the relationship that is now beyond the bounds of ever being fixed -
maybe for having to give up on that thing we would like to deny - but is still often there - that somehow it will all come right and that things will work out if not well then at least fairly in the end.
Also I hope you are coping with something which will probably cause your thoughts to return to events you have quite successfully put aside to live your life as you do now.

It creates ripples in your pool of memory’s and things surface, things you might rather stayed forgotten.
I find writing things down helps me clarify what I am thinking - stops them endlessly churning - and please don’t think I'm odd - but when faced with a situation very similar to yours I wrote a Eulogy ( I’m not actually sure that’s the right word when its not in praise - but you get what I mean) to the person who had died, a very very honest one - nothing like the one that he actually had - it was very cathartic for me. Especially picturing the faces ...but then again - maybe they wouldn’t have been all that shocked.

Equinox - thnak you for your very kind and moving words

You are so right about the ripples. I'm not shaken because he's gone, ive not seen him in a decade . I'm shaken because of all the memories that come flooding back . And the Guilt and obligation . I think the fear is mostly gone now. There's very little they can do to me now I hope.

I'm glad I didn't know he was ill or even before the funeral as FO and G woudl have made it hard to know what to do . When in fact if he had wanted to see me or for me to be at the funeral , they all know where I live / phone no/ mobile /email.

I know we all hope that our abusers will repent on their deathbeds, but that's just a fantasy isn't it . They never do . Or it's just another chance for the family to do more hoovering . So I'm lucky to have escaped all that .

I will probably get a letter from a lawyer in a few months, but at least I'm prepared for that now .

I will think about writing some stuff down ( apart from here)

Thank you for understanding

I wanted to say something similar to Vermin but I couldn't get it out sensitively enough. I certainly have this deep yearning for things to be "okay" in the end, but it's that which keeps me going back for more, and which always leaves me hurting and disappointed. So how do you feel now that the chance for reconciliation has been taken out of your hands? Sad? Relieved?

They don’t repent, you are right, their way of thinking is quite alien and unfathomable.
this is why writing for me helps, it allows me to separate things into factual events and my feelings whilst avoiding speculation about motivation - which is where my mind most wants to wander, but I will never have answers to "Why?" - so it gets in the way.

You do need to be kind to yourself at this time, it is still grieving.
I felt like I had been living with someone I knew - partially dead - for years, I guess I had the idea that it was like they were in a coma* or vegetative state - gone , but not gone.
And when they finally died - it was a guilt inducing combination of grief and relief which I found really difficult to share with anyone in RL - hence why places like this are so useful. So you should share here as much as you want to. You wont be judged by people who have been through the same, but its difficult to be understood by people who haven’t.

*(I do realise there are differences and I hope no-one is offended by my using this analogy to try to explain something)

I keep hoping for a reconciliation too, but it's never going to happen. It does get in the way of saying No More though :s

Reconciliation
" The action of making one view or belief compatible with another"

It is possible to see reconciliation as an act of aggression. In order for it to happen either one or both parties have to give up part of the way they have constructed either their view of the past - or part of their personality,
and who will be the person who will end up giving up part of themselves ? Not the abuser in my experience. I used to want this :-( the best I ever achieved was armistice.

It's been so very long, I think I had accepted many years ago that he wasn't going to change . Hope has been dead for a long time

I don't feel grief stricken - I think I grieved years ago for my childhood and his major part in destroying that .

If he had died 10 years ago I think I woudl have felt very guilty, because the NC was still very hard and new . But my life has been much happier since and I know I'm protecting my kids . I don't regret it at all .

My father was a bystander to much of the abuse by my mother. He knew it happened, even watched some of it and never even tried to stop it . He was part of the EA and psychological manipulation during my adulthood

During my childhood I thought he was a victim like me and didn't expect him to intervene . I was probably in my mid 20s before I fully accepted that he couldn't have stopped it but chose not to, and that made him part of it and complicit . He wasn't a victim like me, he was a perpetrator . ( he held a very responsible professional job )

During my 30s I tried Really Hard to have some sort of contact with them, but it was horrendous and once I realised they had started on my kids, I had to go NC. I'm a very slow learner .

And then there's been about another decade of NC

So basically I spent my teens and 20s totally f*cked up by them, trying to be good enough so they woudl love me . Being in BAD relathionships with men .getting therapy.

30s trying to do limited , non damaging contract . Disaster

40s NC

Now I'm 50 and he's dead at 85. . I'm not sad thinking about his death, I'm sad thinking about my childhood . And all these years I allowed their legacy to mess up my life . And all the years I spent trying , completely pointlessly , to make it work .

I wish I had gone NC years before I did . It's transformed my life . It's still not about me,it's about my partner and kids. I'm still working on actually making my life about me . But I'm physically and mentally healthy , I have a good job and I'm a good mum. I'm not in psychiatric hospital and I'm not in prison . I'm not abusing my own kids

I'm sorry if this makes me sound like a heartless bitch . I'm not glad he's dead and I'm pleased to know it was peaceful . But I'm glad he's not been in my life for more than 10 years and that there's no chance he ever will be again .

Thanks for listening . Well reading. You know what I mean .

It took me YEARS of couselling / therapy to even see myself as the victim of abuse and not an ungrateful fucked up piece of shit who destroyed everything she touched

Then another 20 years of working it all out

So I didn't really belive that in a few weeks on his death bed , he woudl suddenly realise that :

his wife of 60 years has a personality disorder

that they were both abusers who nearly destroyed their children and one of their grandchildren .

That all his professional achievements and his public respectability was just a smoke screen .

That his professed religious beliefs and his behaviour were not remotely compatible - he was a complete and utter hypocrite . That any true religion is about love, not fear and control and abuse

Yup. It just wasn't going to happen . Ever

If I had been called to his deathbed , it woudl just have been hoovering by my mother and sister . I'd have been forced to apologise . More FOG

I didn't realise how angry I am until I wrote this .

You have dealt with so much, that takes real courage.

Long-time lurker looking for some advice. We have been nc for a while now with one parent and siblings/other parent are now questioning how long we are going to 'carry this on'. I am finding it really difficult to articulate what needs to change before we would consider resuming contact.

How do you go about laying out boundaries and being really clear about them without getting mired into history and blame? Does anyone have a shortcut to the rulebook on being a decent family member?!

stacey ... . You are a survivor. You never deserved all that shit. So glad you broke away.

youteach I think the best thing you can do is to write down what behaviour you'd like to see eg not blaming, treating each other with respect, talking to each other without talking over each other, jokes not being mean. if you write things down then come back to it after a day or two it can help you see the central things you want, even if they are written down first in a state of high emotion.

But you have to be sure that the parent is capable of change and willing to genuinely try, or it won't work. Things will either slide back the way they were or you will have to go NC again.

About keeping calm, the best thing is to emotionally detach and see them as difficult clients at work or similar. Very hard to do though when it's parents. Just remember - you don't actually have to get back in contact at all. If their effect is destructive, you're entirely justified in staying away.

You teach

re your comment:-

"We have been nc for a while now with one parent and siblings/other parent are now questioning how long we are going to 'carry this on'. I am finding it really difficult to articulate what needs to change before we would consider resuming contact.
How do you go about laying out boundaries and being really clear about them without getting mired into history and blame"

Would you want to resume contact at all?. Consider that question very very carefully particularly if your family of origin is one with narcissistic parents at its head. Such people too are unaware of boundaries and actively rail against same if you tried to set them boundaries. Whatever you say to them will be turned around by them and your siblings to make you appear to be at fault.

It looks like the "flying monkeys" are moving in on you with all the questions about how long you are going to carry this on. Ignore such people, they are clearly not acting in your best interests but only in theirs. If they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem. They are not doing this out of concern for you, they have an active interest in also drawing you back in (because one of them may have become the target of abuse).