But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Dailygraft123

I am so very sorry that no-one protected you from your evil parental abusers. They should both be in prison for their crimes.

The abuse was not your fault; they are the ones at fault here. You did not cause them to act as they have done (their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them).

Have you considered talking to a therapist about the abuses of you?. I would suggest you talk to NAPAC as they help survivors of abuse in childhood.

Going no contact may well seem daunting and you are still very much in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to them understandably; FOG is one of but many legacies of living with such abusive people. They are not worthy of being called parents and these two have and continue to let you down abjectly. They likely feel no guilt or remorse about what they have done; you really owe them nothing. Such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. They do not change.

I read about your future plans with your partner; grab that new part of your life with both hands and make that leap. Tell your abusers what they deserve to know; nothing.

Any children you eventually have should not have any form of relationship with your parents.

Frith

I would stop all visits to your parents house as no good comes of visiting there. Your children do not need to be exposed to your mother's continual emotional manipulation of situations either for her own personal gain. Her behaviour is very narcissistic; its putting all the attention back onto her again. Its all me, me and me with her.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what role did they give you and your siblings?. Is either one more overtly favoured than the others?.

I hope you have a nice holiday with your sister next week, I would also think your mother is peeved that she has not been invited.

Frith,

I meant to ask whether one or (even worse) both siblings has actually become a carbon copy version of your mother. Parental influence is strong and after all we primarily learn about relationships from them.

It is not your fault your mother is the ways she is; her own family of origin did that. What if anything do you know about her own background and or childhood?.

I would look at the website entitled "Daughters of Narcissistic mothers" and see if any of that fits in with your own mother.

sorry, I meant dailygrift when I put head.

argh and sad and lonely, not lovely. stupid phone

loveheart in response to what you ask about whether you can walk away from someone who puts responsibility for their happiness in your hands...I did this with someone who was a partner (and replacement parent figure - not as powerful a constraint as an actual parent but very strong constraint nonetheless)....stayed for years believing he really would fall if I left...eventually had to get out....left and had a breakdown with the strain....worried ever after he would still crumble and for five years after still made myself responsible...know what? He was fine...is fine (so I hear)....oh and what's more, completely ripped me off in the process (long story). This pattern of an abusive relationship was set off for me by an abusive parent and sibling. I followed the pattern several times before finally getting free of it.
Though the constraint on you is powerful...you can break it...it may feel like it will break you to walk away..but watch what happens to her when you do...she may feign hysterics for a while...but she will survive...people like her always do...at your cost, usually. Ask yourself, who do you value most...her or you? You both have equal rights to happiness...let her take responsibility for herself..keep posting here
dailygraft...welcome...I read your other thread.... I am sorry for what you endured....again, keep posting here...too many of us are here for similar things..but we gain strength from each other, I know I do.
A good bout of vigorous spring cleaning yesterday helped banish recent events for me..more today....feel I might even be ready to go there with some details here, been posting a year but too afraid...feeling emboldened by everyone else's bravery.

Hello! I was pointed this way by Atilla. I suffered emotional abuse all throughout my childhood from my mother, and witnessed extreme domestic violence between her and her partner for around ten years. I have a diagnosis of PTSD and avoidant and dependent personality disorders. I suspect that my mother has a personality disorder herself, due to difficulties during her own upbringing, but she has never sought treatment. I decided to break this cycle and sort myself out. I've had lots of psychiatric input over the years and had got myself into a great place before I had my son late last year. However I've become quite unwell again, and I'm again finding myself desperately trying to please my mum and gain her respect, which I will never achieve. I've forgotten how to deal with the disappointment and the desperate sadness this brings. I'm trying very hard not to indulge myself and stay as well as possible for my son's sake.
In my heart I know I need to go NC with my mum (we are already low contact), but I will be made out to be a drama queen and causing difficulty for the rest of the family just to get attention etc. She will be the victim because I will be the one withholding my son from her. Of course I want to put my son's interests first and I don't want to expose him to her poison, but I don't think I'm strong enough to deal with the fallout :( that makes me feel like a truly terrible mother and no different to my own, who obviously wasn't strong enough herself to deal with her own issues.
Luckily I don't have to see her again for two months, so I have plenty of time to decide what to do and how to handle the next contact.

Hello everyone,

Quiet here for today so far. Thank you so much for the kind words everybody, what wonderful people you all are on this thread.

Yong I am glad and sad that we both experience similar things, but yes, I'm so comforted by you understanding me, and please feel free to PM me anytime, and that goes for anybody else too.. It's a very lonely feeling when there are family issues and even a small amount of support and positive reinforcement means so much.

You can come and spring clean my house too only because you like it of course, not for my benefit, oh no.

Though the constraint on you is powerful...you can break it...it may feel like it will break you to walk away..but watch what happens to her when you do...she may feign hysterics for a while...but she will survive...people like her always do...at your cost, usually. Ask yourself, who do you value most...her or you? You both have equal rights to happiness...let her take responsibility for herself..keep posting here

That spoke volumes to me, I need to keep remembering it when I'm feeling weak willed.

Love I'm sorry to hear you are struggling. It's taken me about 6 months to finally start understanding all the emotions and start processing it and coming to my conclusions. It feels good but desperately sad at the same time. Everything is very emotionally linked and it's very manipulative. I want to explain everything away as she's taught me to as that's where I'm comfortable. Looking at things in black and white is too real and I feel very guilty for feeling the way I do. I completely understand this comment you made, and it's the same for me.

Daily I'm so sorry to read about your childhood, it sounds shocking. Please keep writing on here. I don't have experience of actual violence, so I'm sorry I probably can't help in some ways, but I think you are right to be angry and I also only realised when I reached my 30's, and I've read a lot of similar people saying the same.

Frith Wow, what a killjoy your mum is, and making it all your fault too, all because she's probably bitter and jealous about your holiday. People like that seem to see the world in a very negative light, my mother seems to be getting like that too and it's just impossible to reason with them. I hope your holiday gives you a good chance to relax, and I would limit contact if she is going to be like that.

Good I hope you are doing okay, apart from your phone having a mind of it's own

Peace I too witnessed domestic violence between my mum and my step-dad, mostly hearing it, but also seeing it sometimes. I never felt completely at ease, always waiting for the next argument about petty crap that would quickly escalate. The times I used to look out my bedroom window and they would be at the end of the garden arguing, thinking I couldn't see or hear.

I decided to break this cycle and sort myself out. Good for you! That's the best thing you could have ever done. She sounds similar to a lot of mothers you hear on here, like she has a God given right to access your and your son, despite any problems it may create for you. I've been told I'm out of order for not putting up with the crap anymore, but it's just them not admitting they have pushed me into this, not backing off when you are polite about it, not backing off when you are firm about it.. it's just push push push > snap! and then once you snap you get accused of being ill or emotional. Welcome to the forum, I hope you get lots of strength from it.

Welcome peacelove...motherhood is a pivotal point for this stuff, I found....brings a lot of the issues to the fore, as you say...i know it can seem hard to consider keeping your child from their grandparent....but if that grandparent is not working on the toxic stuff that has caused you so much pain...they will, eventually inflict that pain on your child, and on you again...and your child becomes witness to their parent being abused...you are in the right place....and yes, the fallout will be tough..but like the rest of us here, the alternative really doesn't stack up as a palatable option.
You do have some time to consider..especially while your son is small..but trust your instincts with regards contact...I never understood why I felt so strongly that I didn't want my DM near my eldest...I eventually realised I didn't trust her..because she consistently failed to protect me from someone who was physically abusive to me all through my childhood.(as well as having sme questionable parenting techniques of her own)...she was not at risk from that person herself, and could have intervened...now I have two DCs of my own, I know that if I was unable to manage one child's behaviour towards the other, I would not rest until I had effective strategies in place, whatever they may be...I know I would do this because in fact my eldest has a SEN diagnosis (for different issues from my sibling) and I actively pursued help - it took me over 2 years..sadly I learned later that my DM was offered help with my violent sibling, but refused it..saying they would manage him themselves. I paid the price of the refusal...I think she felt it reflected badly on her..in fact I feel they let both of us down as my sibling clearly needed some help. As did I.
Later on in life, like you I spent a lot of time with poor mental health, but learned that asking for help is not a weakness. My DM, like yours, is still in major denial of all this and refuses to entertain it all. I am, of course perceived to be the difficult one for refusing to stay within a dysfunctional dynamic. My sibling remains, and always was, her golden child. He is becoming very like her from what i see, so I don't have much contact now with him.
I foresee that I will need to go NC and will be basically ostracised for that, they already publicly blame me for a side issue which is not the main reason for my low contact thus far.
It has taken me years to know, provided my own immediate family (DCs DH) are ok, I am prepared to walk away because I had nothing worth losing in what I know think of as just my 'birth family'.
Of course, if either of them were prepared to work on their issues and stop scapegoating me, that might be different....but somehow, I doubt it will happen.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, I am currently at a point where it is all leaking out of the sides!

X posted with you roland - thank you !

I should have said that like you have done peace I learned asking for help is not weakness....hope that didn't read wrong!

How do you all cope with the emotional fall out when you put up barriers with your family? I am worried about DH as he is thinking about his family near constantly and finding it hard to put it aside to relax, I am worried he will be exhausted as I expect it will take some time to find a workable degree of contact and then probably they will try and test this. He agrees that he needs to not exhaust himself emotionally now but he finds it really hard to stop ruminating on it. Partly this is because he has received quite a few messages which are all completely different in tone from each other and make no acknowledgement of previous communications. DH hasn't had a chance to reply before another arrives, and then as the tone is completely different he has more to think about. I wonder if DH is too emotionally involved for boundaried contact at the moment? DH feels that he needs to get his thoughts off his chest- even if they go in one ear and out the other, he wants to have said his piece. He is not seeking an apology or even acknowledgment, just to have told them how he feels, even if they don't understand. Is this a strategy that can be helpful, to tell your parent how you felt?

I wonder if I could join you. Long story including prolonged domestic violence and emotional and mental abuse.

My dad has always been erratic, mood swings, unexpected demands, never know what will please him. Since me and my sisters were small he would get angry about random things and attack my mum. He is elderly now but still at it, he pulled a knife on her the other day.

My mum turned to us for support and collaboration, less of a mother daughter relationship. She won't leave him. They are clearly both incredibly unhappy with their situation. They both wish each other dead. He often says he can understand men that murder their wives. He thinks that she is not considerate of his needs or understanding of the fact that he is lonely and in pain. She is a lot younger than him and I truly don't think either of them expected him to still be alive at this time (he is nearly 90 she is 70).

Long back story but for my part, it has ruined me and continues to ruin me. I saw and heard things no child should see or hear which have now been completely normalised. They have repeated the same pattern so many times and it just gets swept under the carpet.

I walked on eggshells as a child thinking if I did everything right there would be no conflict. Of course that didn't work but to this day I strive to please and I'm the one they all ring to be the voice of reason when they are falling out with each other. I have said what I think many times, but it falls on deaf ears. He rewrites history to be how he wants it to be and blames my mum for any bad times.

My mum continues to involve us in the situation and it is horrible to feel so powerless. We've all tried to help her leave but she is intent on continuing the cycle and using us to chew it all over with time and again. I don't doubt the difficulty of leaving an abusive relationship but it's been 35 years of sharing a burden that shouldn't be a child's burden to share. Having my own girls has thrown it into sharp focus because I can't fathom a situation where I'd involve them in my relationship as she has involved us.

Anyway sorry for the long post. I just wanted to get it off my chest. Thanks for reading.

Kavv - that sounds truly awful I'm so sorry you have this to contend with.

hazel, I wrote my mum a long email when I asked her not to contact me and I did feel better for it. I don't expect her to actually Acknowledge or accept any of it but so far she has left me alone, it's about 8 weeks now.

Thank you all for your advice. I didn't allow things to go back to normal and wrote a long email asking DM to acknowledge things. I explained that this wasn't to admit defeat or anything, it was just so that we could have a functional relationship because I care about her so much. I put a lot of explaination into it, a lot of care and consideration for her feelings, and made it clear that it would all be in her own time as I know she's overwhelmed (was anticipating 'my life is so hard'). She replied with one line - saying she didn't understand my point and needed a break from me (no going back with outing myself now. fuck it )
I am absolutely broken. It hurts to see her react the way that you all told me (or I recognised through your own posts) because I can't deny it anymore and pretend things are different. It hurts that after so much thought and care typing out the email and trying to be clear and reasonable and thoughtful she 'doesnt get it'. It hurts that being NC with one parent I now don't have the relationship with another to balance it out. It hurts after all the talk my whole life of how she will always listen and put my feelings first. And in the most co-dependant way that comes from the very enmeshed situation I feel like (dramatic sorry) I don't know how to keep going without her, I feel like a big chunk of me is missing.
Disclaimer that I am reading all the posts that come up and I hope you're all okay. Sorry for being a bit self involved I promise I'm not usually this selfish

loveheart yep.....I think we've all been there with that kind of response at some point....I know I've had very similar....
I don't think anybody here expects you to respond to everyone else's stuff always. It's nice when we are able to....but sometimes we're all just a bit too broken to do anything other than limp in and vent....that's what it's for. You will give support when you can, but for now take what you need for yourself.

I know I just read other posts and have things to say in my head and feel a bit guilty that I only make the effort when it's to write my own posts. But this board has been so helpful even just for telling me I'm not crazy
I think what really hurts is now having two parents who think I'm self obsessed and create problems just for the sake of it. In my gut I know this isn't true and is an avoidance technique but I suppose I need to stop caring about their perceptions of me. I received a further three emails after I posted here saying that she didnt understand and her life was so hard and I should find support elsewhere (which is the most frustrating as I made it clear I wasn't asking for support - I can't fix our relationship by talking to a friend? Very tempting to rise to it to clarify but I know it's pointless.) But im just drawing a line underneath it. I'm very clear on where I stand - she asked for space and I'm happy giving that to her until she feels she can come to terms with things. (It wasn't even my childhood I wanted acknowledgment of (I'm not that optimistic) - it was our recent argument and how it was a recurring issue. I was very clear in 'this comes up again and again and if we can just acknowledge that I feel this way about it we can change the way we react'.) Anyway that's the official line but of course I'm well aware that means no or little contact from here onwards until she's willing to acknowledge (never, then). I'm dreading the very familiar feeling (from NC with dad) of walking around half empty. That's the feeling that's scared me enough in the past to make me back down. I know that she won't be able to go more than a month or so without contacting me but then it will be a similar 'apology' to today's - I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm not sorry but I'm such a good mum that I always give in because I come last. Hoping that by then I'm not worn down enough to give in.

Wow sorry for all the brackets. as a prize if you can follow that.

It is hard accepting that no matter how much you explain...they refuse to accept any of it.....but they are in denial....which prevents them from hearing you....and until they move away from denial, that will be the status quo...it is very painful....know that your truth is your truth....and when you own it, it matters less what their take on it is...because you know how what you've experienced makes you feel...and that really is the most important thing (I am finding anyway...)

Very thought-provoking about "your" truth and "their" truth. I think my mum really has convinced herself that I have invented my childhood.

oh absolutely! my mother truly seems to believe that I randomly turned on her for no reason. apparently I even forced her to emigrate against her will too.

Oh that's good to hear. I'm so sorry that you all have similar experiences but it's nice to know it's possible to know that someone feels that way and cope anyway. I think constantly goading you (however intentional or unintentional) with their misunderstanding is part of the control and so although it's frustrating and I'm desperate to correct her I know I have to not rise to it. I've received such a lovely amount of validation, from you lovely people but also from a close friend, dp and from my dsis who was originally involved. Who knew talking to people could be so helpful
Dsis understands completely but feels in this instance that my mum's happiness is too important (she honestly is under a lot of stress and has a hard time) and so is confident enough that she can feel one way but superficially continue the same relationship. This is the first time for her but yet another for me so we're in very different places. She's also much better at not being swayed than me so may be able to continue both at once. Hearing her plans to do this almost convinced me that it wasn't all worth it but someone lovely and wise on here (on phone so can't namecheck) said that siblings could only support you so far (or something to that effect) and so I took the support and validation but I'm okay with the fact that we can feel the same but act differently. I know it's still horrible and hard and will continue to be but I'm actually starting to believe I'm not a horrible spiteful ungrateful person just for asking for acknowledgement in order to find a way forward.

Just had the 'wounded' message (because I am not responding to the multiple texts and emails of the last 10 days at the mo)....asking me where we are...saying that they support us but...we don't seem to want them...
See how somebody can make it all be about them, even when alledgedly supporting the other person?
A non-invasive, non agended message might say something like 'just checking in with you,,,know you're up against it right now, so don't need to reply but we're here if you need us' and then not be wounded if the person doesn't reply because they really are up against it. (and you have told them that's ok, rather than having a hidden agenda that you are actually cross that they haven't responded)
But that wouldn't convey the wounds we're obviously inflicting by keeping them out of our stress because funnily enough they tend to add more pressure at times like this, not ease the burden.
All about them, not about us and what we genuinely might want or need from them.
So tedious....so not what I need to focus on right now, but that's exactly the problem with the little drama llama...jumping up and down saying how dare you use your stressful situation as an excuse not to give me attention. I refuse to take responsibility for her anxiety as I have mine and my family's needs to consider first. After all, she doesn't care about my stress or my anxiety, never has done..can't do otherwise she wouldn't add to it in this way...I could patiently explain all this to her, but yet again I would be giving my time and attention to her, rather than focussing on what I am really up against it with. And that is exactly why she's doing it. Not about me, all about her.
Aaaandd exhale, it's tough all this, you guys, isn't it?

Mum asked if she could come back next week to visit so I sent her an honest message explaining that I won't allow unacceptable behaviour around my son. I felt really brave and stupid, but it's done. She hasn't replied and probably won't for a few days and will then pretend nothing happened.
My husband said to me that she knows that I'm struggling and is waiting for me to beg for her to come and help me because she wants to be needed. I need her like a bloody hole in the head right now.
I semi understand because my own PDs cause me to think and behave in strange ways, but I can't feel empathy for her when she doesn't want to deal with her issues. This could so easily be treated and put to bed.