But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

lastlines my mum has never accused me of faking but anything you have she is worse. No sympathy.

When the DC was younger and I had a moan about how difficult I was finding it that week all she would say is that she had to cope with 3 under whatever age and I only had 2. All I wanted was a bit of sympathy. Even if you thought someone is being a wimp you just say 'you poor thing it is hard isn't hard' not tell them you had it worse

I think you perhaps also mean no empathy as well. What your "mother" (I use that term advisedly) has told you is perhaps characteristic of what a narcissistic mother would say as well.

Attilla Definitely no empathy!

Booville3 Your mum helped when you needed it and now you don't. Isn't what part of being a mother is to be there for your children.

My mum lent me some money (less than £1,000) in my mid 20s and I paid it back within 6 months. When I got together with my DH every time we visited she would harp on about this money (not in front of me). One day on the way home he mentioned this money. I told him circumstances and he almost crashed the car laughing as the impression she gave him was that it was 10 times that!

Point being they don't need to go on about what they have done - just do it and shut up.

We all know on this thread that we are great people and deserve to be treated well and that we should not let it get to us but most of us can't and we are not any weaker because of it.

Stately homers

I need a quick sanity check please

I've posted on and off recently and the weight lifted from my shoulders with the realisation that DMs behaviour isn't in fact normal is indescribable!

Basically DM is not as bad as so many other posters and for that I'm eternally grateful but I have in the past been NC for 3 months whilst pregnant and disinherited so our relationship isn't perfect! She has plenty of the textbook narc traits!

I decided for a number of reasons to go LC recently because I was tired of always being the scapegoat and never living up to expectations (what with my good career, wonderful DH and DC etc) I'm such a disappointment...

Now I've had the email rant about not being in touch, nor phoning to see how she is, how they don't feel welcome when they visit etc etc and if I don't want anything to do with them why don't I just say so

I don't want to hurt them but I also need to protect myself and my family from more manipulation and bad feeling

Before I eat my own body weight in Percy pigs please can someone tell me this is par for the course and it's not actually my fault and I AM a grownup!???

Somer I understand what you are saying. I keep contact to a minimum as I haven't the guts to deal with it so minimum contact is the best. Easy when you live a distance away and you can blame having to take the DC wherever

It isn't your fault. At end of the day your DM could have contacted you to see how you were. Although she sounds like mine and that it is up to us to do the running.

If you are still going to stop at LC I would be inclined to reply to the e-mail saying doesn't time fly and you didn't realize how long it had been. I would ignore the the bits about you not making them feel welcome and carry on with the chit chatty what you have been up to.

I send a weekly e-mail to all the family saying hi and saying what we have been up to and what is happening next week. Never get a reply from my parents. Perhaps you could do that as it is more impersonal than a phone call.

I know others will disagree but it depends how much of a confrontation you want

Somer, if you can face it, ignore the email. That's the best way of communicating that this kind of guilt-inducing aggression won't gain a reaction from you.

Also (and I've only just learned this at 50 yrs old FFS) don't dismiss that you are very upset by this, so you need to actively work on reducing your own distress. How you do this is up to you, though Percy Pig probably isn't the answer. Try some youtube affirmations or healing meditations, or journaling where you write as fast as you can absolutely everything you feel, how upset you feel and then move into how you'd like to feel and end with some affirmations.

Also, (sorry if this sounds a bit odd) you have to very obviously show yourself that someone is now around who does listen and will take good care of you. (That someone being yourself!) So plan something really lovely - an afternoon walk with a really upbeat friend or a comedy film night in PJs and duvet on the sofa, to help you not feel so sick at her email. Do it very consciously: My mum's email upset me, so I will now take an hour in a cafe with a notebook and write it out of my system, or I will now buy a cheesy DVD and watch it once the DC are in bed. That way you're less likely to fall into comfort eating traps or booze traps.

Don't think this is OTT. For years I thought I should just be able to handle my dad's manipulative vitriol and that I didn't deserve to pay any attention to how it affected me, or take steps to care for myself after one of those attacks. That sort of vicious guilt trip has the ability to leave you in shreds. IME if you don't deal with it swiftly and with OTT amounts of self-care and self love you end up spiralling back into deep depressions. I've only recently learned this technique and it is very effective.

Rational journaling is a very effective system. Say you write down: I felt sick when my mum said she never felt welcome at our house. Then you rationalise: it's true that I feel tense when she's around and she probably picks up on that, but I cooked food I knew she liked, and I cleaned the house and asked how she was (etc, etc - whatever you'd done) so I definitely did make an effort for her and I'm not responsible for how she reacts to that effort.

Hello! Do you think if I post in here, someone might be able to help me out? I'm very confused about a situation and I need to start making sense of it.

It's a bit long :S

I've just gone LC with my parents and DP is now making me feel guilty about it. From what I've read, it's fairly common for people without family issues to not understand what's going on?

somer yes this is absolutely, absolutely par for the course. The next one might well be guilt tripping, then getting other people to come and tell you how hurt/upset she is (the flying monkeys) and how cruel you're being. Then the health scares.

or she might go the Offended route and cut you off.

it's so annoying when the anointed Scapegoat refuses to play her part. She has to be made to understand her role and brought back to it, don't you understand. How dare you not play to your script.

Thank you so much you lovely lovely people !

What would I do without you all!??

I'm back to being self assured and in control and the Percy Pigs have been palmed off on the DCs so everyone is a winner!

Am doing the journal which is a huge help but had a wobble earlier !

Normal service resumed - as normal as it can be anyway

I love the idea of a DVD and pjs etc. And that sort of a treat ! Sorry I can't thank whoever that was personally but I'm on my phone and can't work out how to save this post and go back and check so apologies

Thank you so much again for taking the time to reply

It means a lot

Lowflying

Yes - 'normals' with no experience of dysfunctional families / narc parents do tend to think LC etc is all a bit odd... They will usually say something like "you only have one mother / father...' or 'life is too short to hold a grudge' or something else to encourage preservation of the family unit.

It isn't their fault... Their family all love one another and can therefore have fallings out and make up again in a healthy fashion. They don't understand the dynamics of an abusive family relationship or a dysfunctional family so it is really hard to them to see that sometimes the only answer is LC / NC to prevent serious harm from coming to one or more family members.

All you can do is try to explain to DP and ask for support - some of the websites at the beginning of this thread might be helpful for DP's understanding too.

Lowflying

I suppose if you haven't been through it you find it hard to understand.

My DH doesn't get it either and if he says 'you only have one mother' one more time I may have to cause him some serious harm

Thank you :) feel like I'm going a bit crazy!

I am a long time lurker to this thread (found a link to it once via AIBU). I've spent a while reading the suggested links. I'm not quite sure where my Mum sits, but I know something isn't right.

But then, like now, I get massive pangs of guilt and confusion. Such as, maybe it's me? Is it me? Hence finally plucking up the courage to post here - changed name because I feel so nervous (even though I know my parents would never come on MN).

I’ve always had a strained relationship with my mother. Don’t get me wrong, I had an ok upbringing but was always worried about her moods – as in, feeling anxious that she would be in yet another bad mood and I’d endure silent treatment or sulking etc. Sometimes, I didn’t know what I had done wrong – just had to endure her wrath until I was told what the issue was. This got worse as I got older and I always felt like my Dad didn’t want to intervene because ‘she’s your mother’ ‘she’s the only one you’ve got’ etc.

I moved out when I was 19 (with a boyfriend) and it was a huge relief! One thing that I was never aware of until I moved out was – they never really showed me any affection. I don’t remember any at all. My ex picked up on this as did DP ‘why does your Mum never hug you?” "Don't your parents ever say they love you?" It makes me feel a bit awkward but I figured everyone is different.

She was diagnosed with a long term illness in 2005 (MS) I get that it’s awful for her but I do honestly feel that it is used to excuse her bad behaviour (although I feel guilty for even thinking that).

As an example:
Silent treatment/being huffy with me for an unknown reason – frequently.

Being called a bitch down the phone because I was ‘late’ on my way to see her on my birthday one year (DP had taken me out the night before and the next day (my actual birthday) I went to see her at 1pm – I didn’t realise there were conditions that I was meant to adhere to and got a torrent of abuse). This was a casual arrangement - no planned dinner or anything that I could be 'late' for. She always hated it if I had a social thing and slept slightly late the next day - If I was asleep at 9am, there would be hell to pay (I'm talking about being an adult - she would call frequently and if I didn't answer because I was asleep...)

Ignoring me/bad mouthing me to family if I didn’t call enough according to her (I used to call twice a day – my parents never/rarely call me).

Being accused of having a “poncey” life (I just worked full time/rented a flat and socialised rarely).

Being passive/aggressive with me when I had to stop paying them to look after DS1 whilst pregnant with DD (pregnancy complications meant I had to stop working). She insisted that I pay her for another month (taking all of my money that month)even though she wasn’t providing childcare because ‘what was she going to do for money now’. I suffered long before I actually had to stop work on my GP’s request – my Mum kept saying I shouldn’t work just because of them and to put my health first. The minute I really did have to stop working, I got sulks and passive/aggressive behaviour?!

During this time, we were having a new bathroom put in due to a flood. The work was going to take 2/3 weeks and I was 7 months pregnant with DD – with no bathroom/toilet. Same thing with the passive/aggressiveness – you can stay at ours during the day as long as you bring everything you need (including water and toilet paper), but then made to feel really bad about being there. One day, (it was Winter) I had to hang out at the park/shopping centre because they made me feel really unwelcome, only to then call me at lunch and make me feel worse saying they had cooked me dinner and why wasn’t I coming round?!

Criticizing my parenting in front of DS.

Using me for money.

Currently, I’ve been ignored for the last 2 weeks because either: my aunt sent DD a card/money and my thank you card hadn’t arrived in ‘time’ and it makes my Mum look bad (her words). Or, because DS & DD’s birthdays are 2 weeks apart and I’ve had an expensive month, I’m being ignored because I can’t afford to give them petrol money to come and see me (I moved 2 hrs away).

I got a random text tonight from my Dad saying he’s had a bad week because he’s been in and out of hospital. I will also be further ignored over this because I didn’t call to find out if he was sick – my Mum and brother won’t tell me out of malice (she will bad mouth me to him)– this further makes me the black sheep. This is how it feels anyway.

I’ve just had enough. I’m fed up feeling like I have to apologise for things I don’t know about or my Mum’s current mood. My brother who is younger than me but also in his thirties has and still is babied. He doesn’t get any of this.

Sorry it was long. This is the first time I've ever spoken about this or admitted there might be a problem.

Fed up!

Jeeze bananas

Take a step back, look at what you've written as if another person had written it. Take a long look.

This is absolutely NOT good parenting. You say your younger brother doesn't get this treatment. It sounds like you're being made into the scapegoat; into the resource for her dislike and wish to Blame. Plus you are a great resource for money.

You are absolutely right that this is not good and there is a problem. Your sense that it isn't right is healthy and it's a good thing it's speaking up.

Criticizing my parenting in front of DS. This is very worrying.

I know, right? It's just taken a very long time for me to admit to myself that something is wrong - it makes me feel very, very guilty with a cherry on top!

I did stand up to her once, few years ago and got ignored for 3 months. They took me to a GP appt and when I got home, I realised the prescription was wrong and casually mentioned that I’d pop back (wasn’t asking for a lift at all) to get it fixed after the weekend.

She went off on one, huffing, eye rolling etc because I was inconveniencing them/how could I not have seen that the GP got it wrong, how could I be so stupid (they lived 10 mins from me. My GP was 15 mins from me – not a long journey or anything troublesome). She stormed off – I got told by my Dad to make it up because it was hurting her.

I just really also hate the fact that my Dad enables her behaviour. It's almost like the two work in tandem if you know what I mean. Currently, because I'm being ignored - it means he won't be on the receiving end of her weird ways.

I'd never treat my children like that - never ever! In fact, I feel like I do anything to not be her. I show my children plenty of affection, plenty of hugs. We always talk about feelings.

It makes sense reading it back. Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I feel like I'm in shock.

yes, I feel sorry for enablers but there's no doubt that they find it easier to deflect the shit that's pouring out away from them onto someone else.

It IS ok to go low contact or no contact. If there is no chance of talking it out and of her changing, it's ok to say No More.

In the case of children if she starts in on them, treating them the way she treats you, it's something you shoudl consider as a protective measure.

Can I tell you my story? I've never posted here before, though am a frequent poster on another part of the site so have NC.

I'll just check my NC has worked first!

It probably has =) And the stately homes has far too many rooms for our good. There's room for anyone who wishes a cup of tea and non-judgemental ears :)

Hello everyone. I'm a first timer on these threads but have followed and had great help from them over the years. Like others my mother displays narc tendencies but is not what I'd call a full blown narc. I've been reading toxic parents and although it's helpful, I do feel a bit of a fraud because my situation doesn't feel as extreme as the real life examples highlighted in the book.

In brief, parents separated when I was 16 after years of a difficult home life. Very acrimonious with me stuck in the middle. Mother used me as emotional punchbag rather than venting her rage on father. Now NC with father - he was a bully, we lost touch when I was in my 20s, I'm now late 40s. I've gone LC with mother over the years and have successfully managed to be quite detached. I have to manage the relationship carefully - minimal personal info, I always pay for her flights to see us (we live in Germany) so that she has no hold over us. We have experienced various meltdowns from her over the years usually involving her having some hissy fit because she feels ignored or not welcome or whatever perceived slight she comes up with when she visits.

I talked with her on the phone on Sunday. She was meant to be coming to visit this Thursday for a week (we live in Germany, she lives in the UK). She asked about sleeping arrangements, i said she'd probably have dd's room. She made some kind of snidey comment which immediately made my hackles rise. I asked "What do you suggest then?" To which she replied "shall I just not come?" I don't know why but a red mist decended and I absolutely exploded with rage. Several years of frustration and anger came to the fore and I was pretty harsh. I tried to calm down and ended the call but obviously the damage was done. I received an email from her a few minutes later cancelling her trip.

I don't know what to do. This all looks ridiculous written down but please bear in mind there is a massive back story here involving typical narc emotional abuse. I've also left out lots of detail because it would be all too long otherwise. I started to really detach once I started having my own kids and my anger at my parents increased exponentially. I guess during the phone call the other evening I just somehow reached my limit. I'm sick of the abnormality, of not being anbe to just have a normal conversation without some hidden snidey undercurrent. I'm just so bloody tired of being made to feel so utterly rubbish.

I feel lost. I don't know how to respond. I'm not going to beg her to change her mind. Feel free to ask me to fill in any details if it helps to unravel this awfully rambling post.

Thanks for talking to me about this. I think maybe long term, I'd benefit from seeing a therapist.

The thing with my children and her - it's weird. I'm not sure how to explain... it's almost like she was trying to be a better parent to my son? Does that make any sense? When they looked after DS1 whilst I was at work, DP constantly said they overstepped the mark and felt like they were invading our lives. Trying to seek medical attention for our son when there was no need (trying to go over our heads when we had already seen a GP etc).

Showing my son affection when they were never like that with me.

Critisizing my parenting. Making sarcastic remarks. I was 10 days post c section with DD and they were visiting. My Mother said to (then 2yr old) DS out loud in front of everyone “Why doesn’t Nanny get you dressed, at least Nanny can be bothered to iron your clothes unlike Mummy” In a really, heavily emphasised nasty way.

She never really showed a massive interest with DD though.

I think in the next few weeks, I will try to find a therapist. I find it very difficult to accept praise in anything I do. This often resulted in me getting over looked at work. I very much had the 'disease to please' thing going on - which meant I often got taken advantage of. I also have a knack of completely shutting down my feelings and not allowing myself to feel - which isn't particularly healthy is it!! I'm not sure why I do it. Perhaps it's a coping mechanism.

Even though I feel ridiculously guilty for the LC thing, I do feel relieved for writing this down here. Thanks again for taking the time to reply, means a lot. :)

An explosion like that doesn't come out of nowhere.

I'd say that now, you need to step back and give it 36 or 48 hours because a showdown like this is shocking and the whole system, physical as well as mental, needs to ride the wave until it's subsided.

After that - well, you know, is it so bad if she doesn't come? She is NOT your responsibility. She never was. You were hers til 18, but you do not and should not have to walk on eggshells.

I think that actually, all you can do now is step back and wait. Her snide question "shall I just not come" could only reasonably be replied to with "that is up to you". She is playing games and expecting you to beg her, I suspect, and to grovel so that she can get her own way. Does she simply want to be the one who rules, or does she actually want you to be in the wrong?

What do you want? do you want an ongoing relationship with her or is the thought of her not contacting you again a relief?

If you think she will contact you again, think about what you want. what YOU want in the relationship. Then keep that in mind and plan how to handle her. It may help if you mentally step back and think of her as a very difficult customer or client.

take it easy tonight.

I'm noticing a pattern - I'm not Thr only one saying, mines isn't Thr worst, or I feel like a fraud, or it looks normal.

Are we trying to minimise or something?

It's nice to be among people who get it. Sorry I'm not very much help to anyone else. Some of you are fantastic.

RJ I think people minimise at first when they come to this thread because the very nature of a toxic family is that you are likely to feel alone, isolated, not know what is 'normal' etc. sorry not to reply to others right now, not able to write more currently but will be back.

RJ

The reason we all say these things is because we have either been told, or led to believe for our entire lives by our toxic parents that this treatment and behaviour is normal. Or it is something they have been forced to do to tame our abnormally bad behaviour etc.

Either way, it is never the fault of the toxic parent so we blame ourselves and minimise it because we asked for it.

I think that for me (not everyone of course) it is also a bit because no matter how awful our parents are, we still love them and try to make excuses for their behaviour to protect them.

It's a vicious circle because until we can admit to ourselves that the experiences we have had are not normal, we can't start to deal with them...

I think there is a bit of it for me which means if I allow myself to fully admit how bad things were, the grief and anger I feel will be overwhelming. I can only let it happen a bit at a time and the denial element helps to protect me.