But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Meerka, thank you for answering.

Most of the time, I don't confront him, and DSis and I are both very careful not to spend much time with him or to allow DC much contact, because he's like a frothing volcano of bile, who won't let you leave the room. It's quite mad really. he'll open his mouth and shout about how awful people he used to work with were, and how they all had it in for him (the whole department...) and his parents and how awful his life has been. He'll not actually pause for breath for hours on end. If people try to interrupt or chip in or change the subject he massively overreacts and sulks and looks wounded, as though they are denying him the right to attention, just as his parents denied him the right to attention. It really is a vicious circle.

DM stayed partly because she was an enabler, partly because she is a very unworldly person (dyspraxic, deeply disorganised and forgetful, useless with money, never had a job.) Her role in life was established early on (they met in their teens) She was there to soothe him and help him overcome his childhood trauma. Hmm, 60 years on, it shows no sign of abating. Now, sadly, her moment for leaving him has passed as she is showing signs of dementia. he's livid. It means he has to look after her, after 60 years of her looking after him. He thinks telling her off for her dementia will lick her into shape.

Being his soother has always been her main role. She told me once she didn't much enjoy being a mother, and she showed very little interest in my DC. She shocked me once by saying she knew my DC better than her other grandchildren because she spent so much more time with them. She used to babysit once a year, when I had a big work event and even then she'd sometimes ring up and say she wasn't sure she could do it because something more important might crop up.

It's sad because as they grow old, I can see they need a lot of attention and she's starting to regret spending no time with DC as they grew up. She didn't help when I had PND, or when DS2 was so ill. She said, 'Oh I'd not have had the patience to do what you did to keep him alive, he'd probably have died if he was mine.' And she's probably right.

If I thought they were malign, I'd confront them, but I truly think they did the best they could and my DF certainly was better than his own parents. He told us he loved us often, and I think he meant it, even though he had no idea how to show it in action. That's why it's so hard to be open about how damaging they were. because they didn't mean to be.

Hi lastlines , thnak you for sharing some of your story

I've tried very hard not to repeat my own pareting As I also have a narc parent ( mother) . Of course I dont behave like her ,as I was trained that I was to haveno feelings at all , just to respond to hers. If I ever had any emotions she got very angry . So when I was required to have them ( when she has visitors and was acting her " good mother" role , I didn't know how to act happy or grateful and she was furious .

Your father sounds similar - it was always about him. Every situation has to be about my mother , including family weddings, funerals ( even when she's not one of the bereaved IYSWIM ), Graduations , birth of children (not hers ) .

She also ranted for years about her hellish childhood, telling us how lucky we were and how we shoudo be more grateful to her . She said she was in a children's home and then adopted at 15 . When I was a child I belived every word . By my 20s I had decided it was all made up .

In my 40s I met a of my mothers who was estranged from the family ( there are lots of estranged people In my parents lives ) . She told me a lot of information about my mothers past and I did some research too.

Turns out it was almost all made up . Her own mother was only 17 , single and living with her parenst when she got pregnant , so My mother was brought up by her own grandparents as their own child ( as was common those days ) . Her grandparents were only in their 40s and managed to hide it all from neighbours, extended family etc .

Apparently she actually had an idyllic childhood , much loved , effectively only child of reasonably well off family , own detached house with garden and was very spoilt . She was pretty and charming ,did well at school . She wast evacuated with her school during the war as she was sent to her cousins in the country ( the counsin who told me all this ) .

She went to secretarial college ( as bright respectacle girls did in the 1940s ) and the got married straight aftre . For years she shouted and blamed me for destroying her career , I had ruined her life .

Turns out she never worked aftre she got married Evem though she coudld have . I wasnt born for another 12 years !!!!

I was so very confused when I found out . I felt that MY whole life was built on a lie ( not hers ) . That my life had all been about feling sorry for her, feeling guilty , having to make it up to her for her awful life . Of never being good enough , not being able to fix it , having to sacrifice my own hopes and wishes to make her happy

So I'm wondering if you know how much of your fathers story of his childhood is actually true ?

With my mother it WAS true that she was adopted at 15 . But by the people who had been her parenst since the day she was born , and who were her close blood relatives. And she know her mother as her big sister . She has a lovinh , happy and comfortable childhood , with the attention of several adults ( 2 adult sisters as well as her parents ) . She wasn't legally adopted until she was older because there was no legal framework for adoption in her country then .

And she didn't work aftre she got marrried. But out of choice, not because I destroyed her life and her career .

She just used it all to manipulate us and control us . It's was 95% lies

RJ I hope you are feeling okay this morning. Do you want to talk a bit about what upset you yesterday?

lastlines I have broken the pattern with my (step)son. Hugely so. Unfortunately I wasn't able to prevent the damage his bio mum did, but I'm supporting him to work through that.

You said If I thought they were malign, I'd confront them, but I truly think they did the best they could

If you were reading about them and they were someone else's parents, would you still think that they had done their best?

Thank you so much for checking on me, I am fine. I don't use these threads often but it was amazing when I first read them and realised I wasn't an awful person and I've been a few times over the years when it's been too much. You lot are amazing.

It's impossible to talk to other people - my dh gets it now because he's seen it close up but it's so insidious. Im usually able to cope but occasionally it's too much. And it comes out.

for you all.

Lastlines and Stacey So much of what you have both said resonates with me...

My DP also tells everyone what an awful childhood she had, although no-one has actually heard any details of it as far as I can determine. Although she has once acknowledged when she was very drunk that mine wasn't particularly great, (I nearly fell off my chair in shock) that admission was followed by the statement that hers was worse and she may tell me about it one day, the inference seemed to be that I should be grateful that my experience was not worse!

I feel awful for thinking this way but seeing as she either lies or embellishes the truth pretty much all the time, I wonder if there is actually anything to tell? I know she was estranged from much of her family but she is estranged from lots of people and falls out with people all the time, including periods of NC with me and my siblings - it is really hard to tell what is the truth and what isn't.

Is it too late to join this long running/ established thread? My problems with my mother have all stemmed back to when I was 15 & got pregnant with my ds! She wouldn't entertain any option other than I keep the baby as she is catholic (although I haven't known her attend church for years)! She told me she would help with the baby so I could continue with my education so this is what happened, at the time I was very grateful for this, the degree I wanted to pursue wasn't available locally to me so I made the tough decision to move away for 3 years to achieve this my ds stayed living with my mother during this time, I came home every other weekend & during my holidays! I moved back home following completing my degree & managed to get a job near home I lived round the corner from mum & we almost co-parented my ds for the following 5 years having him half the week each, I then decided to move to live with my partner whom I had met whilst at university, we had been traveling long distance to each other for 5 years by this point & we had another baby we wanted to be a family & dp couldn't get work near where mum lived - I took ds with me she has been vile on & off ever since as she says he is her son & I've stolen him from her, how could I betray her, how could I choose DP over her!! I don't know how many more arguments I can take with her she constantly undermines me as his mother, every time were getting on a bit better something else seems to happen & we start all over again I know she loves ds as her own but he is my son, I've worked hard & have provided him with a nice home, he has two half siblings & I love them all - how could I leave him behind or let him live with her??

She recently has been saying she hopes dp will leave us so I need her again!! What am I supposed to do?

Gah - just written along reply and lost it. Stacey and Meerka thank you for your support.

Boo ville - I can see why it's a hard situation . If your mom cared full time for your son for 6 years and then half time for another five years , I can see why they might be attached to each other

But I can understand why you want him to live with his half siblings .

And of course, as an 11 year old he will have his own views

I know there are lots of posters on the step parenting threads who have experience of things like this, perhaps they would have some good advice for you too

Hi Booville3

I would stay well away from your mother now. She should not get to see any of you particularly if she cannot talk to you at all decently.

Your son is your child; she did help with raising him for some years but the fact remains he is your child and not hers. She saying that he is her son and you stole him from her is frankly ridiculous as well as sounding mentally unbalanced. She's had her turn at parenting you and now she needs to back off and let you and your own family unit live your own lives.

RJnomore It must be tempting to say 'I am surprised I have not resorted to drugs'.

Glad you are feeling a bit better today.

Booville3

She recently has been saying she hopes dp will leave us so I need her again!! I imagine there will not be many on this thread that are shocked by this comment. I can certainly imagine my mum saying that. Not said it to my face but bet she has thought it!!!

she is catholic (although I haven't known her attend church for years) Not sure if I have put it n this thread or the one I started but it's funny how religion can make a big difference when it suits them. My parents are catholic (he has never has attended church) and when I got a job for another religious organization he would not shut up about working for the other side. Still in the job and still does it.

lastlines

Oh I'd not have had the patience to do what you did to keep him alive, he'd probably have died if he was mine. Know it is not a competition on whose mother has said the worse thing but if there was one that has to be in the running for top price. It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive they can be. Isn't that what a mother is supposed to do - do whatever it takes to get your children through.

lastlines

Oh I'd not have had the patience to do what you did to keep him alive, he'd probably have died if he was mine. Know it is not a competition on whose mother has said the worse thing but if there was one that has to be in the running for top price. It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive they can be. Isn't that what a mother is supposed to do - do whatever it takes to get your children through.

it's funny how religion can make a big difference when it suits them weird, I'd never thought about this as a link. When I mentioned wanting to live with dp when I moved out (had been together two years, known eachother five, and were staying together five nights out of the week. I was eighteen - also, as if it's relevant, we weren't even making plans to live together, it was just the future aim) my mother went ballistic. First she didn't want me to waste the best years of my life on him. Then apparently his family hated me and I made them uncomfortable and for some reason had confided this in her. Lastly it was that I was Catholic and doesn't my religion mean anything to me?! Ironically the vicious arguments drove a wedge between us (naturally) and it was a big factor in me leaving home and moving in with DPs family (they invited me... Can't have hated me that much )
She moved her boyfriend in less than a month later.

The sad thing is I've tried really hard driving him up & down to hers for the bulk of half terms/ holidays so she still gets plenty of time with him & he has still enjoyed this, she is getting all the nice parts of having him, not the trying to get him to do his homework etc! I've tried really hard to ensure they have an ongoing relationship but she is making it impossible!! My partner isn't ds father obviously he hasn't seen him since his 1st birthday & it's now come out my dear mother (or not so bloody dear) has been writing him letters & sending pictures of ds to him without me knowing!! How can she behave like this? My siblings agree I shoudnt have taken him & should have left him with mum to keep the peace how could I leave him behind though?? Especially as he wanted to come with me!!!

I don't really want to go no contact as it's going to mean really I would have to stop ds's contact as well & he does value his relationship with her & my father but I think her growing obsession with him could become a problem for him as well! I don't want another confrontation but I don't have much choice! What do I do now though just break contact she is having a phase of ignoring my texts/ calls anyway so I guess the usual thing would be as half term approaches she would ring me like nothing's happened to make arrangements for me to take ds down to her I guess I just say no!

Booville3,

"I don't really want to go no contact as it's going to mean really I would have to stop ds's contact as well & he does value his relationship with her & my father but I think her growing obsession with him could become a problem for him as well!"

The above is not a reason not to go no contact.

You haven't mentioned much about your dad; what is he like?. Does he act as a bystander out of self preservation and want of a quiet life?.

Your role amongst many is to show your son positive and healthy role models in life. Your mother is neither. Its a problem for your son and you already because your mother is unhealthily obsessed with him and regards him as her own. You are your son's parent, not she. She behaves like she does because she feels entitled to do so.

Leaving your son behind was never an option; your siblings all too easily stated otherwise because they want to keep the peace with their mother (a fragile peace at that and one that could easily blow up), are over invested and not acting in your own interests. Your son also wanted to go with you, after all you are his mother and his opinion matters.

Stop trying so hard when it comes to your mother; you are still seeking approval from her that she will never readily give you. Emotionally healthy grandmothers do not act as she has done.

If she is ignoring her calls then make no further effort to contact her. No is also a complete sentence when it comes to your son.

Theymake my mum is quite odd. She is cast as the family saint because she puts up with my overbearing furious, maniacal dad. But she was quite emotionally disconnected. When I was first seriously depressed and needed hospitalisation she told me I was putting it on to see what it felt like. What she really meant (and fair enough) was that she couldn't cope with two mentally ill people so decided, for ease, my illness was faked. I never asked for their support when I was ill. Or anyone else's. Being taught when you are very young that you cannot ask for help when you need it is a really poor life lesson. It's taken me 50 years to seek help for problems, and I'm still amazed it's out there and that receiving help can work.

RJ, you are not a cunt. Re this: "The stupid thing is without the background of control it looks like they are doing nice things." It's not stupid. It is, I think, one of the hardest aspects of dealing with all this shit - that when taken out of context it looks like it's not shit. It's part of why it's so miserable and crazy making. But on this thread you are talking to people who get it. Promise.

I think you've hit on one of the hardest and loneliest things about having toxic parents. While my childhood was out and out abusive, the things that happened in my adult life sound okay without the context, or just not that big of a deal, and that can make me question myself.

lastlines My dad's bad childhood was used as an excuse for all his terrible behaviour and I was always hearing about it from him and others. Not sure why my childhood mattered less, but it did. Leaking poison, as you say. I'm sorry to hear about this - you should not have been given this as your responsibility when it was meant to be his responsibility to prioritise your childhood.

I sometimes wonder if my dad realises he made me feel exactly like he felt as a kid, and if he thinks that's okay. I worry that it wouldn't really break him. That he wouldn't give a shit. I think he expected to feel all respected and powerful or something.

How do you handle a parent like that - all you can do is set boundaries, and not be like them. Which is what you are doing! And it sounds like you are doing terrifically. You can break the pattern, absolutely. But you cant change them, or make them see. You are taking the path of self-awareness, insight and change, and that is the harder path but the better one by far - for you and your children. What you can't do is make other people relinquish their self-serving, narcissistic blindness.

My dad also goes on about things that happened years ago. And nobody dares shut him up. But if I ever repeated myself about anything he got angry. Pot, kettle...

Stacey I'm so sorry your mother lied, that must have been shattering especially after all the awful crap she came out with.

Hippy that sounds tough. It's not awful to question the truth. I don't know what to make of it but you absolutely aren't awful!

Booville it's never too late, the stately home is always open.

Further to the above: my dad by all accounts had a genuinely shit childhood (which isn't an excuse but is part of the background). I think he believed that becoming a father would result in him feeling powerful and respected, as opposed to being a scared little boy. But in actual fact he felt exactly the same inside himself, and he didn't get the respect he expected because he didn't bother to fucking earn it. I drove him absolutely mad because I didn't treat him like the king of the universe, I didn't instantly do what he said or act like his word was law.

And it felt like shit up there on the pedestal he tried to put himself on, but he thought that was because of other people. Fucking wanker.

All of these accounts that I am slowly reading through are unbelievable i can not understand how parents treat their children in such terrible ways!! I think it's very true that they will not change & it is a real possibility to have a happy fulfilled life without them in it, it's just hard initially as it doesn't seem the way nature intended! X

Also my dad has never disagreed with my mum sometimes I actually think her treatment of him is dreadful, I am one of 6 children she has never worked I think my dad would have been happy with just two children but she said having baby's was her life & her "career" he had no right to stop her apparently apart from he has worked 2 jobs for years, has dreadful flare ups of arthritis but still works in his late 60's to pay off the mortgage that she has never financially contributed to! She will say I love my younger two children more than my eldest because I worked full time when I had him for a lot of years & only worked part time after I had ds2 but I was in a stable relationship with a supportive dp!

Booville3 I know right? Some of the things my parents have done are so unfathomably shit.

I know & it's partly how i accept it isn't normal behaviour because the bulk of people I know & certainly my understanding is that if your children turn out to be in happy relationships & are independant, caring, hard working people then you would be proud?! I think sometimes I just feel desperate for a "normal" mum! I am telling myself I do not deserve the way she treats me & if over 4 years on of me moving away she can still practically slag me off & be unkind about me & to me then I need to walk away from her & not let her have that power over me anymore! X