But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm in need of a "normality check" from fellow Stately Homers.

I was thinking back to some things my mum did when I was little. I was definitely less than three years old because my sister wasn't born. I think it may have happened while my mum was pregnant with my sis, so I would have been about 2.5 yrs. My dad had moved out at this time with one of his other women.

I remember my mum lying down on the settee, I think she was watching TV and I was playing or probably colouring with crayons. Then she rolled onto the floor and just laid there with her eyes closed. I went over to her and was talking to her, but she didn't respond, then I became quite distressed and was shouting "mummy mummy wake up" and banging on her arms with my hands.

After what seemed like ages, and I must have been crying and screaming by then, she opened her eyes and said "I was just testing you."

Then she said that she wanted to make sure I knew what to do if I found her "sleeping" and not waking up, that I should phone 999. But the phone was mounted on the wall?! There was no way I could have reached it.

I think she did this more than once as I'm sure I remember one time when she was at the foot of the stairs (not fallen) and did the same thing.

... That's not normal, right? People don't teach toddlers to ring 999 by pretending to be dead, do they?

I feel like I know the answer but I've just accepted her "reason" as the truth for nearly my whole life and I feel really weird questioning it.

I can't really connect to any feelings of distress about it but I have difficulty accessing a lot of feelings as I was always told off for expressing negative emotions. But I did have a lot of nightmares as a child and a recurring theme was abandonment, specifically by my mum, which is now starting to make sense :(

WTF? No way is that anywhere near the realms of normal. No wonder you have experienced fear of abandonment!!!!

good god pocket

NO ITS NOT NORMAL.

I do think that some kids, maybe all, become aware of the possiblity of abandonment and have to come to terms with it.

But dear god, you don't bloody do this to your child. That was just cruel.

Thanks all! for affirming my sanity!

I realise now what a strange thing to do. I don't think she did it from cruelty, because I can't remember her laughing or anything like that, and she hated me crying.

I wonder now if she was planning to kill herself, and she wanted to know if I'd survive on my own and be able to find help :( I know she was very depressed and anxious at this time due to my dad walking out during the pregnancy. (Pity he came back, the abusive wanker.)

She is always incredibly hateful about anyone who tries to/does commit suicide. "It's just pure selfishness and cowardice." She says this about literally anyone who kills themselves, no matter the situation. I once told her I was suicidal and her response was "Don't be such a bloody coward."

Now I'm wondering if this is projection on her part. Sure sounds like it, in retrospect.

Sorry to disagree, but it sounds cruel to me . She enjoyed seeing how distraught you were, it proved how important she was .

If she wanted to kill herself , she coudl plan to do it in a way that kept you safe eg leave you with someone else

Some parenst have a genuine reason to teach their young children how to contact the emergency services eg because they have a serious medical condition like epilepsy . And they woudl never do what your mother did . It's all about teaching the child what to do and NOT scaring them. Teaching them to be powerful and take appropriate action , to empower them.

Your mother did the opposite - it was to frighten you and make you feel helpless , to reinforce that you were nothing without her. Exactly what narc mother teach their kids for life .

It sounds like intense denial to me too pocket if she was seriously depressed then. Maybe she came so close to it and now can't bear to think of it.

But as stacy says, that's no way to teach someone how to find help. Even if there weren't guidelines on how to teach kids that she knew of, that's really a bad way and I would wonder if she was either making a serious misjudgement or something weird and very unkind was going on inside her.

Pcoketsaviour,

Your mother's (and she is not worthy of being called that really) actions were deliberate and abusive in nature and done also to control and frighten you.

Her attitude now towards people who commit suicide also strike me as projection. Its certainly not a healthy dynamic for you to be at all around.

You're right Attila, it's not healthy at all. I have felt so much steadier since going NC in Feb. I still have odd days where I feel down, but I can usually see that's because I haven't had enough sleep, or my pain levels are higher than normal, or that it's very stressful at work.

But previously I would be fine during the week and then speak to her or see her at the weekend and then be plunged into a depressive period.

I feel like I'm opening my eyes for the first time, since going NC. I'm seeing her clearly instead of through the FOG, and sadly what I'm seeing isn't good :(

Stacey I see what you are saying about cruelty. I will have a think more about this later (off to lunch now!)

Fucking hell, pocket, you poor little girl! I can imagine your terror. I suspect your analysis is correct - that she's fought the urge to die for a very long time, making herself 'put up with it' (life) and has collaterally hardened herself to others' suffering. But this doesn't help you as the person who was raised with this hardness, and it certainly doesn't excuse the cruelty of what she did.

My parents were obsessed with death, too. It doesn't do a whole lot to support a child's sense of their parents always being there for them in a reliable world, which most kids do have.

Thanks, Meerka and everyone, for your kind replies :)

Yes I know what you mean about the comfort, Staffie.

I used to tell myself "OK my dad was a child-molesting pathological liar, but at least I've got my mum."

Unfortunately she was shit as well (although obviously not as bad as my dad.)

It's a sad realisation.

I've told myself for quite a while that although she might not mean to be cruel, the things she does are cruel and it's okay for me to be sad or angry about them, and to call her on it.

I find it hard to believe that she would be deliberately cruel. But perhaps that's me judging her by how I would treat my own child (or anybody)?

I think sometimes it's very hard to be sure if cruelty was deliberate or not. Or something in between. I mean ofc sometimes it'd downright obvious but .. sometimes it's not.

I think the same as you - that people from very very difficult backgrounds learn to survive at any cost but the price is that they become hardened and a lot of odd psychological processes go on and they end up doing a load of stuff that they don't understnad themselves ... like what your mum did. All that anger and fear has to spill over somewhere and it's usually the kids who get it because older people push back more.

Purely speculating but I wonder if she was both loving you and being cruel at the same time. My biol. mother used to say regularly 'oh I nearly died on the operating table, my heart stopped' or something similar. Just toss it into conversation casually. She didn't stop to think for a moment that anyone close to her might actually be upset about it. She 'justified' it by saying "oh im trying to prepare my young-teen children for my death". No she fucking wasn't. She was just afraid of dying and loved drama and loved jerking people's emotions around. I hate that, that and the suicide threats "if you leave me Ill commit suicide". Grrrrr.

The suicide threats are an awful thing to do to a child. Pure evil manipulation.

My son's bio mum used that on him to stop him coming back to live with me after his dad died. BITCH. God I would cheerfully run that cow over with a tractor

oh god your poor son. how old was he at the time? I hope he's free of her now

Ah yes, suicide threats, a narc classic. My mother didn't threaten as such but made me watch her flush her ADs and sleeping pills so she "couldn't OD", apparently she was only not killing herself because of me. So, no pressure then. I was about 12.

I'm getting really annoyed by a thread about 3 letters from NC inlaws, I think some of you have seen it. All the "but they're your parents" dickheads coming out of the woodwork. It's got to me as the letters from the narc inlaws are v similar to my DM's style so I feel a bit got at myself, iyswim. Grr.

goodto, people who haven't been there don't understand. it's lonely when you are a child who has had parents who have undermined and been so destructive, becuase people don't understand.

But it's not personal to you, it's that they don't understand. I think that accepting that your experience has set you a little to the side of most people is part of the whole adjusting to a healthy life without a narcissistic parent.

If I may offer some advice, if people are getting to you then concentrate on the original post and let the people who are speaking from a happier place get on with their unwise advice (at least i try to do that myself; there was a thread recently about HG where I really had to take a deep breath and tell myself what I've just said to you!).

Also, and this is for the long term, it helps if you can gently smile to yoruself and accept that they have been lucky, that it's good that they don't have the experience, and be tolerant. I really hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's not meant to be. But getting used to a life without a narcisstic parent is a journey and it's one that isn't pleasant, but you can't expect everyone to get. Luckily.

You're right Meerka a very wise approach. I suppose part of it is rooted in my little voice that still surfaces sometimes, my little doubting, "maybe she's right after all and I AM a terrible daughter" voice. Mostly under control since therapy but these kinds of threads awaken it sometimes.

yes ... it's a dog that's only very lightly asleep, that one. Doesn't take much to wake it.

if it helps, it gets more deeply asleep as the years go on.

That's good to know. I try to remember something I read on here about when that little voice starts, to remember it's THEIR voice, not yours and tell it to fuck off
I suppose I'm also a bit twitchy as it's DD's bday on the 14th and I know from recent batshit missives that she's sending a present. It's also DM's birthday 2 days before on the 12th. Then it's mine at the beginning of June. So, a bit of a run of difficult dates emotionally.
Also, waiting for my exam results any day and shitting myself!

Some points really similar to my thoughts in the last couple of days... Feeling bare losing the 'good' parent, not knowing whether it's just actually me and I'm a bad daughter. I keep thinking that I've gone off the rails, what a weird thing to think when I'm a rational adult but I keep just thinking that this is just me 'lashing out' The thing that keeps going round and round in my head is is my mum a bad person?! Logically I know it's not that simple or black and white of course but the anxious part of my brain has just become fixated on it obsessively as I wish it was that simple so I could feel justified. I wish I had an answer. As I've said before gaslighting was a big part of things and also obviously coping mechanisms of just getting on with it so think I'm going round and round in circles as I keep forgetting I'm just doing fine in NC and I'm really happy and coping so every day now and then I'm thinking... She mustn't be that bad. And everything I think I can hear my mother's voice in my head justifying it so I end up just feeling bad for her. It's horrible being so unsure all the time

I think this is why I'm so obsessed with interested in various psychologies, and in the many different kinds of relationships people have. I've always been like this to an extent - I find humans fascinating but, now, it's practically my main focus. I need to understand what's happened to me; I also need information to use in rebuilding myself from the debris (melodrama, sorry!)

I can go "ah, bless you in your ignorance" at 'but they're your parents' type comments, but I still have trouble with people babbling on about getting over it, not trying to blame your childhood for your mistakes, and so forth. It comes from the same place as the first thing but upsets me far more, being an intolerant judgement rather than simple value projection. Generally I try to patiently explain, or just ignore, but I have kicked off a few times and ranted with what must look to more fortunate posters like insane self-pity!

I remember someone posted like that in a Stately Homes thread once. It didn't go well

And everything I think I can hear my mother's voice in my head justifying it so I end up just feeling bad for her.

But this is the nub of it, isn't it. The child takes its parent's word as gospel. It sinks into that eager young mind with precisely the same import as learning how to cross a road safely, wipe your own bum, make a sandwich, tie your shoes and count your money.

There is a massive warehouse of information to untangle, keep/discard, and to replace as needed using only our own resources.

I'm posting to makr place as I ned to read the thread. I've posted on a couple of narcissisitc mother threads tonight and it was suggested I coem here. I need to work through a way to learn to relate to her that isnt all about me traispsing after her and doesnt go along with being the scapegoat. Yet to work it out wihtout being overly defensive/offensive. Need to work out how to calmly say "it hurt...."