But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I agree Meerka pain is pain and it's all shit. Hugs.
Was it worryworker who said about the therapist saying it was ongoing grief? My therapist called it Complex Grief or Compound Grief because you grieve for the loss of the relationship, or loss of hope, but they are still alive so there's no closure and it rumbles on, especially if they get in contact.
I'm feeling slightly on edge as it's DD's birthday in a fortnight and I know madoldbat is sending something. Her birthday is 2 days before DD's and obviously I won't be acknowledging it and my birthday is the beginning of June and I expect she'll ignore that (hopefully).
Also, waiting for results of the professional exams I sat in jan, should come through any day.

it's ongoing grief with my father yes. hurt whichever way you turn, particularly poignant because as a small child he was sometimes a loving father. distant often, but sometimes loving. He used to read to me when I was in the bath. I loved that.

With dead biological mother it hurts in a hundred different other ways ... so afraid I'll turn into her. And a gut horror at what she became in the end and how she treated her children. And when I see someone who knows her, I always talk about the dreadful side. But she too wasn't all appallingly unloving; there was warmth and care too in her own deeply damaged way. It's even harder sometimes when there are good memories and bad together.

thanks for the hug, tonight is a raw night. Sorry.

Loveheart0 what you said makes total sense and I feel more annoyed than sad thinking about it like that. She's never acknowledged what it's like for me/anyone else, she in capable of it, which I expect others on here can relate with their DM or df's. Pure manipulation. Thank you for your wise words.

I can totally relate to what you said about mourning loss of 'happy family future'. It's so bloody hard when you're NC with both parents and know you can't rely on their unconditional support or love like you'd expect from a parent. I find it both difficult and reassuring to see the love and support my in-laws give my dh (and me)- I'm not used to it, I don't deserve it.

Meerka how awful of your df to say/do that. So very painful for you. My df has made a few unkind booze filled phone calls to me in the past and once, some years ago, told my ex he must have a big problem if he was going out with me! Charming!

Hey, I say fuck you to my 'd'f and 'd'm coz you're the ones missing out on the amazing people I have created whom fill my life with so much happiness and joy and keep me going.

Meerka how awful. People can be so ignorant. I don't think you can compare experiences or feelings, it's not a competition, it's not worth anything, you just feel how you feel.

It's never straightforward, and an all bad person or all horrible memories are rare and the nice memories make things very hard.

It's not easy and it's awful that people feel entitled to judge the depth or severity of anyone else's feelings in any circumstances. I hope you didn't listen to your friend. Sorry you're having a hard night

Meerka, you give out so much wise advice, support and kindness to people on Mumsnet. You are an amazing person, to be able to give so much when you are suffering yourself. Thinking of you, and hoping you will feel better tomorrow.

thank you for your kind words. Mostly I can handle it, just sometimes it hurts a bit too much. Do have a lovely aunt and a lovely half-sister, which helps.

Meerka

Was sorry to read that you were on the receiving end of such a crass comment from a so called friend of yours. Some people really do have foot in mouth syndrome.

Be kind to yourself (((((((meerka))))))))

Meerka I am sorry to see you are having a tough time and sending you some support...

Hi guys, today I woke up feeling guilty and find myself doubting myself that things were that bad with my parents and maybe it's a small bit my fault because I was a bit of a wild child and should have tried harder with my family and maybe I should just ignore all of comments and digs and get along with them because at least then ill have a family!! But that's what I have been doing for years and it only upsets me and I have to realise they will never change, sorry I'm here trying to remind myself of the bad times but there was some good times too it's so confusing!!! I have only recently opened up to some close friends about my family and they were shocked and guess it helped hearing them telling me that what went on was not normal that blatantly showing favouritism is not normal and the damage it can do, as I recently found out I am expecting baby no 2 I am beginning to freak that I will have a favourite what if I do the same as my parents? Dh is not the father of dd but he is so good to her and treats her like his own but what if when this baby comes along he starts treating dd differently? Sorry mixed bag of emotions here sorry for long post

Sorry to hear of that comment Meerka.

I have to admit... I have had similar thoughts to your friend in the past. That it would have been better if my dad had died when I was about 9 or 10, instead of him starting to molest me.

However, I've never been so crass as to say that to a friend who's lost a parent

Hello to all who have joined us in the Stately Home recently

It's my birthday on Friday and I'm really hoping my mum doesn't send a card. (Been NC since Feb) In my NC email I told her "no emails, no letters, no texts, no calls, no cards" so I really hope she sticks to it.

Its my sister's birthday the following week, and although she hasn't "officially" gone NC, she's heard nothing from my mum since I sent the mail, which she says she finds a relief, but also it feels a bit rejecting. Like our mum's gone, "Oh Pocket has blown me out. Should I bother with her sister instead? Nah, might as well leave them both alone."

These people are such weirdos, aren't they pocket. I just don't get it. It's like my mum: slags me off to high heaven, all the worst things she could think of/invent about me and then when it's clear I know and am hurt and don't want to talk just decides "right, fuck her, I'm emigrating". No attempt to apologise, a couple of woe is me, "I don't why you are doing this" did she fuck and then blame blame blame. I still after months can't get my head round that reaction. It's so weird I sometimes begin to feel tiny doubts creeping in: Did I behave badly? Was I unfair?
My DD's birthday is coming up and I know she'll send a present guilttrip and then it's mine in a month. It's such a shame we have to dread birthdays like this, isn't it? I really hope yours leaves you alone if that's what you've asked for and that you manage to have a lovely day despite it. I will think of you and raise a glass of water to you on Friday xxx

Thanks good. It's such a relief actually to be able to come on here and talk about it with people who "get it". I am working on the day so I'm going to go shopping on the morning and bring in some nice cakes and snacks for everyone, and then my sis and I are going out to an expensive but very nice restaurant on the Saturday. It's just getting home every day and feeling that apprehension as I look on the mat for the post.

Although I don't want to deal with any flying monkeys, it's almost insulting that she hasn't tried to get any of my aunties or uncles on side, if you know what I mean. I'm sure she has told her sister what's happened, but my aunty has obviously decided to keep well out of it. I guess she hasn't told her brother as I am much more close to him and my cousins on that side, and nothing's been said to me. TBH part of my anger with her was due to her snobby comments about my uncle and my cousin, saying the name my cousin chose for her baby was "chavvy" (I think it's a lovely name! It's not like she called the baby "Waynetta" or something!) I went to the baby's first birthday party - my mum didn't turn up. My uncle asked me about it, he was obviously a bit hurt. He said he emailed her twice but she didn't reply. When I picked her up on it she said "Well he didn't give me enough notice so obviously I assumed I wasn't wanted there." How much notice do you need FFS, you don't work, don't have a partner and no childcare duties, you don't even have a dog!! Also how does getting an invite at "short notice" mean that your presence isn't wanted?? It's like she wants to be begged to do anything. And if you don't then it's "proof" that you didn't really want her there in the first place.

Recently I've had several dreams about her as well, that somehow I've been "tricked" into talking to her again - like I've bumped into her in the street and started having a conversation, and I've "forgotten" that we're NC - and she's been really nice, and then said "So we're in contact again now and everything's fine, isn't it?" and I've felt unable to say "Erm, no it's not". Wake up feeling so frustrated

In a way, the fact that she hasn't been in contact with my sis strengthens my resolve, because if my DS had told me he wanted a break from contact, and he had a sibling, I would be on the phone to them in a flash - not to get them to choose sides or to pump them for info, but to apologise to them if they felt the same way, and try to strengthen the relationship and make amends.

Instead, she's just gone dark, and while I hope it's because she took my advice to seek therapy seriously, and maybe she's working on her very long-standing issues before re-initiating contact - the reality is that she's probably sitting in her flat bemoaning her lot, playing the martyr to the hilt with her (few) friends and refusing to take any responsibility for her choices.

She seems very similar to your mum in that way, good. Just totally passive-aggressive and as soon as you lay down a boundary, she goes completely berserk. What was it in your case - you didn't return her calls for 24 hours and she immediately decided to leave the country?!

Anyway I'm just venting, feel free to ignore me! Need to let off steam occasionally to people who know what its like!!

Wow pocket your dm sounds so like mine. Since I've stated I want NC, she too has pretty much stopped contact with my dsis. Although my db is another story - he hasn't 'gone against her' yet by pointing out what a crap mother she has been a lot of the time etc.

Someone saif upthread about how difficult it can be as you remember it wasn't all bad. Totally get that - I sometimes think of times my mum was there for me eg; picked me up from uni to take me home when I had glandular fever but then think surely this is what a mum does anyway, I'd do for my kids without thinking and not an exception to the rule as is with my mum.

I didn't pick up the phone and she rang it again, then dh phone then bout an hour later the "I'm emigrating as you've obviously cut me off forever" e mails started.
Nutjob.
our mother's do sound similar, yes. I agree, v pass agg and then go batshit at any attempt at boundaries.
dreamt bout mine the other night too. we're moving house soon and I dreamt we were moving in with her!!!! arrgh!

Now that's a nightmare you've already lived through... and so have I!

Hello :) I hope you don't mind me dropping in after a very long absence. I needed a bit of a thought dump. Is anybody else reading the cute thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2365111-Just-go-inside-Mummy-You-dont-understand-me about cheeky things kids say? Well, I'm loving most of them but about half, I realised, were unimaginable to me! Little children sternly pointing at their daddies and ordering them "Downstairs! Now!" Ever so sweet but, my god, that would have got you knocked down the stairs so fast you went through the front door in my house.

I'm sorry, this isn't really in the flow of the thread atm but I was shocked to find yet another way I'll never be 'normal', and don't know where else to put it. Thank you for reading

Oh Gralick I can't tell you how grateful I am that you posted this. I was feeling exactly the same about that thread. I had to be so careful about what I said. I wouldn't have dreamed of saying half the things on that thread.

I think you've highlighted something really important: that it's painful hearing or seeing people have a conversation you can't be part of. Not only is that upsetting, it can replicate childhood feelings of being silenced and invisible - or at least I find that especially if it's a conversation and I'm sitting there thinking you really don't want me to join in as my experiences aren't cute or funny.

Thank you for posting, seriously, I'm so relieved you've expressed how I was feeling

I'm also having the same experience with the 'did you ever call ChildLine thing' with tales of children threatening to call ChildLine because their mum wouldn't give them a lift.

It's like tales from another planet.

Thank you, too, Peppermint! Yes, you've articulated just how I felt. Big chunks of shared human experience that didn't happen for me & my sibs - and all the more poignant/isolating for the knowledge that sharing what did happen would upset people. So, as you say, we keep silent. Again.

I did phone the NSPCC, age 7. Just as they were beginning to take me seriously and asked for my address, Dad came back in. I never did it again, and sure as hell wouldn't have tried threatening my parents.

Seeing the depth of confidence 'normal' kids have, never doubting that they're loved & secure, sometimes highlights just how much I need to compensate for. I don't have my own DC - it must be both wonderful and painful to see your own children trusting you that much!

I'm so sorry your call was interrupted like that. It must have been very hard to make it.

It was, as I recall. Thank you :)

gralick ofc you are welcome to post here, dip in and out as you need. Just sorry that you need to come here, if you see what I mean. That it was so dangerous.

it's very isolating when your background is shakey. I feel alone too. Myabe a lot of us do.

Another loner here, too. Sorry, I have not read the full thread, pop on and off too.
So sorry about your grief, Meerka. It is hard ((hand holding)). I hope your heart will know peace very soon.
It kind of comes full circle...from the keeping silent for self defence...yet still listening...And trying to participate in our own life , ffs, in the midst of the seven seas of dismissiveness we encounter daily. I think at some point we can arrive at a perspective, a little piece of high ground if you will (our life is our own), to achieve an understanding that all those people are just full of shit willfully suffering from their own brand of distorted thinking. It is most obvious whenever they pontificate on someone else's life experience. It is a sincere lack of awareness that other people should be treated with respect.
It is ok, and well justified, to be dismissive right back at them..."aww, bless her heart" ....

My mil died yesterday. We travel 500 miles (in the states) tomorrow for the funeral on Friday. As an in law, I was never considered a part of the family (been married to dh for 25 years). So I didn't really have much of a relationship with mil...again: learned to be silent (which I was great at from my childhood). So the status quo. I am a little anxious about (I anticipate) not crying enough to suit dh' s sisters. I know this sounds silly. But having had counselling, and well, I found my voice (!), I will need to still not say anything. The ironies of life. Sometimes it is just best to keep quiet. Go figure.

Hello andtheband, sorry you're having a stressful time. How is your DH doing? I think I remember you saying his mum was quite controlling?

I am a little anxious about (I anticipate) not crying enough to suit dh' s sisters.
Large handkerchief, and practise audible sobbing. Plus some stock phrases that are vague and bland enough to pass such as "She's gone to a better place" or "No-one could ever forget her charm/kindness/legacy/cooking."

gralick and others, yes, I had a strong response to that thread too. In my case tempered with the knowledge that my son has felt secure enough to be cheeky to me many times, but it's always hard when you come up against something like this and you realise the huge chasm between your normal and most people's normal.

My sister was (still is!) that kind of cheeky, and she sometimes let it out even though she knew it meant physical punishment. When we ate at home we sat on a wooden bench at the table, and I would be able to tell when she was about to say something naughty, because she would draw her legs up under the table so she was actually ready to run - like an athlete on the starting blocks! She'd drop whatever cheeky thing she wanted, then spring away from the table and out of the room. My dad always sat against the wall so by the time he had disentangled himself from the adults' bench, she'd be out of reach. So he'd just kick the cat or the dog, or kick my lego to bits, or throw something.

And my mum would say "Oh dear daddy, calm down".