But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello Teacup!

I'm a recent visitor to the stately home and I can't tell you how liberating it's been to realise my DMs narc behaviour isn't 'normal'

It's not an easy experience but
You'll find so much help and support here

I hope it helps you as much as it has me

Hi teacup and welcome

gralick I feel the same, I wanted to understand how people tick to kind of cope with the bafflement and hurt of going from beloved daughter to actively unwanted and the startling shit that came after. I find that now I'm deeply cautious of others, which is a shame.

Hello teacup and have a :)

Meerka my son was 13 when his bio mum threatened to kill herself if he didn't come and live with her. (He was visiting her for 2 weeks at the time.)

His dad had died less than 2 months earlier.

I don't think this emoticon gets anywhere near my rage for her.

He then went on to live with her, it was horrific. He was scapegoated, verbally abused, physically abused, witnessed violence, and gas-lighted to hell and back. I, of course, had no power or rights as I was "only" his step mum. A teacher at his school tried to help him and ended up calling in social services. Of course bitch bio mum then turned on the sweetness and charm, oh I'm a pillar of the community, I go to church and help others, poor little DS is making things up for attention as he misses his dad.

It went on for over a year before she flipped out during a meeting and everyone saw her full narc rage.

I was then able to get involved with social services and arrange for him to move in with me.

And would you believe the bitch STILL tried to block him moving in with me, even thought she'd actually kicked him out.

headexplode

He has periodically tried to maintain a relationship with her but it's always ended with a massive row. The last time, she told her other kids not to talk to him as "the devil is inside him" and that Satan would take them to hell

The row was because her current husband shouted vile abuse at my DS's sister and threatened to hit her. She was 10. My son basically stood in front of the girl and said "You'll have to come through me." (I love that boy.)

Yes, clearly possessed by the devil.

He hasn't had any contact with her for 2 years now. He really misses his siblings though, and feels responsible for not being able to "save" them.

Funnily enough, I came across this thread originally because I was looking for info on narcissist mums in order to help him deal with cutting her out. It was only as I kept reading that I realised my own mum was so toxic!

Hello all,

I usually lurk, and dip in and out when I need a bit of handholding. It's been coming for a while but I think I may finally have gone nc with my parents, or more like they have gone nc with me.
My dad was ea growing up, and remains an unpleasant bully. My mum is equally awful, in a dependent emotional blackmailer kind of way, but we manage to have an ok if superficial relationship. My mum has memory issues, so slowly her world view seems to have become his, her versions of events and memories are now his versions. It's been horrible for me, as spending any time with them has become increasingly hostile and upsetting.

I had a heart to heart with my mum a month ago about some issues in my own life, and about how my dad's behaviour means we don't visit often and how it is damaging our relationship. She was sympathetic, said she understood etc. And hasn't spoken to me since. I don't know what I expected, she has always taken his side. Now she has done it again, and I feel like a child again. And feel stupid for being here, for letting my guard down, hoping things will turn out different. Isn't that the definition of insanity- doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result?

It has been coming for a while, I have been trying to reduce contact and step back. Both of my parents are damaging to my mental health and I am happier when I don't see them. But still I am checking my phone to see if my mum has called. I have been in a state of relief and hurt for the past few weeks and today I have started crying and can't stop. For those of you who have gone nc- did you feel this awful grief? For how long? It's all so complicated I don't know how to talk about it, and if anyone says 'but they're your family' i think I might just begin to cry and never stop.

pocket Christ. I'm afraid I do put people who behave like her in the category of 'evil', even if they don't mean to be. I really hope that your poor step son can recover from the years with her. At least he has you and his time with you.

glabella welcome.

Yes.

Yes, that grief is intense. It's a loss, as real a loss as a death (and unfortunately I know whereof I speak; I lost a deeply loved parent at 11 and am near as dammit NC with my adoptive father so I do have experience of both).

It is a sort of death in a way. It's the loss of the comfort and safety that you still can't help associating with your parent. Loss of childhood too. It's messier than a death. How long does it take to come to terms with it? I think eveyrone varies. Some people seem to take months or a couple of years. for me it's still a source of emotional pain many years on even though at a head level I've accepted it and know absolutely it's for the best.

In your situation it's worse because the sympathy and understanding your mother showed is false. You made yoruself vulnerable to her, she seemed to be loving but her actions afterwards have shown that the love was not love; her kindness was actually a deceit.

As time goes on you start seeing things in a different way, slowly you seem to come to some realisations. it's very well worth reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

glabella is there anyone you can talk to irl about this? trusted and supportive friends do help

I've read the Toxic parents book twice, and her emotional blackmail one too. I've also had a vast amount of counselling over the last few years due to mental health stuff. So (stupidly maybe) I thought I would feel more ready for this.

My partner is amazing and has been very supportive and listened to me talk it through over and over again, friends are harder as my closest all have 3/4 year olds and they are not conducive to heavy discussions!

And thanks. :-)

I struggled a lot in my teens with realising how crap my dad was, came to terms with that and felt ok with it. The realisation that my mum was just as bad with her own manipulation and failure to protect me from his ea has knocked me for six.

Growing up I viewed her as my ally, because my dad was mean to her too, but I have come to realise she always did take his side over mine, and still does. I miss her though, I miss the mum I thought I had.

Meerka, I'm as sure as I can be that it's normal to go through a long (years) period of hyper-vigilance after learning about this stuff. It shakes one's entire belief in human society: we have lost an innocence that many lucky people never need to question. For example, some of my therapists have told me that, on discovering the prevalence of child sexual abuse during training, they couldn't look at a man - any man - without wondering "Is he? What about him??" And there is real grief for our lost innocence, faulty though it was.

We need to find ways to integrate our new insights with our coexistent knowledge of all the kindness, humour, courage & compassion in humans. On paper, this is as simple as accepting that nobody's all bad or all good - but, in practice, it's a major reshuffle of everything we thought we knew about the world we live in, and how we interact with it. I reckon you can cut yourself some slack whilst you figure that one out

I started a thread and have been directed to this thread. Big wave to Teacuptravells who posted on it.

The moment when I actually thought wtf was when I told her was I was pregnant (in my late 20's) with her first grandchild. No whoops of joys, hugs and congratulations but 'why would you want to waste your life' and 'if I had my time again I wouldn't have children'

Welcome theymademe, I am glad you have found this thread.

That comment of hers cut to the quick didn't it. That was not untypical in terms of narcissistic behaviour either from her.

I sincerely hope any children you have do not see either of your parents at all.

(I've read the other thread where you write of your dad).
Your father has also utterly failed to protect you from his wife and has acted really as her hatchet man. He has sacrificed your well being to protect his own sorry hide. He would rather see you get hurt than he, he being weak as well needs someone like his wife to idolise. Narcissistic women cannot do relationships so the man in their life is either as narcissistic as she is or is long gone.

:o I have that, gralick. I was in a situation where I was dealing with many many survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Some of it shattering to even hear about. Quite a few of those survivors had personality disorders unsurprisingly. Even now, I do not automatically trust anyone, specially males, with small children. I genuinely believe that this level of mistrust is unreasonable and unjust, but it's exactly what you say. It's been hard to look at men without wondering.

Having said that, there's some men that I know are good and decent men to the core. Don't want to write yet another essay so I won't go into details but in my teen years there was a much older married man who I was friends with and he was 100% decent and trustworthy. You can't say something like that now, that a 60+ man and a 15 yo girl could be friends, but we were. He was more of a father than my own, that's for sure. There was another married couple later and he also acted with total decency.

But it's what you say. I don't have that faith automatically now. I can't help wondering ...

theymakeme hello, have a seat, welcome. [coffee]

I didn't mean :o ... gah, i still get the emoticons wrong. i meant

Goodness, Meerka, what a distressing and interesting field of work. I don't think it's reasonable to automatically trust anyone, neither do I see this as unduly cynical. We build trust based on experience and, until we've got sufficient info, it's wise to take sensible precautions.

Imo it would be over-dramatic to to assign nefarious motives to the 60-year-old man befriending the teenager. But it would be irrational to assume he hadn't any! My sister and I still remember our old geography teacher with huge affection. We weren't close to him, as I guess you were with your friend, but he did rather take us under his wing, along with many other girls whose fathers weren't all that. He was a valuable role model, albeit just a tiny piece of one :)

Attila Almost 21 years since that comment and I still remember it. I'd bet my wages that she doesn't though and would probably bet her pension that I am making it up

My 2 DC do see them but only with me. Only problem is I do sometimes did a wee break so there can be a few minutes of unsupervised access.

Can I ask if anyone has DH or DP do they support you or not. Mine can't seem to understand it and keeps saying 'you only have one mother'. At the same time though he will get early and start cleaning the house when they are due to visit because I need to have this done to.

my husband doesn't get it at such but he listens very patiently to me! the idea of any of my parents coming to visit is a non-starter. (well, a stepfather does occasionally but with my half-sister and it's only been 4 times).

If he'd seen my father though, it would have been hard for him to get it because on the surface he's charming and the comments that undercut and leave me crestfallen sound innocent. So innocent in fact that it took me 20 years to realise what's going on . When I look back I can't believe it took so long to realise that every single time I had contact with him, I came away feeling discouraged, as though somethign was missing, useless and a failure.

People just don't get it if they've had good parents.

do you have any friends with difficult parents ? easier to talk to them than to your husband maybe

Meerka Until Friday I haven't come across anyone who seems to have the same problem. I had to ring this woman during work and have spoken to her a few times. I don't even know how we ended talking about our mothers. It was like a revelation that someone actually got what I was saying. Unfortunately as much as I would like her to be my new best friend not sure I keep ringing her up to tell her what the latest issue is.

The one friend who I really confided in thinking that because of her job she might be more understanding just suggested that I go to visit on my own and talk through it. Not happening as I know it will all be denied and turn round on be that it is my fault I feel like that.

I can't believe it took so long to realize that every single time I had contact with him, I came away feeling discouraged, as though something was missing, useless and a failure

That's how I feel. I have a (mostly!) wonderful DH, 2 gorgeous DC (who in general are well mannered and getting on ok with life although the older one not at uni so of course she is a big disappointment), a house (a decent size in a nice area although obviosuly not big enough compared to others and how I have never been on 'how clean is your hosue' for help) and a job (I like to think I work hard and people in general think quite highly of me and think I am helpful although not professional enough of course they can't brag about me) You get the drift about comments after the 'although'

At least I can now come on here knowing will judge.

I'm a trainee therapist among other things and some of my fellow trainees have been really shocked to hear about the prevalence of sexual abuse. It's been upsetting and frustrating for me hearing a few people say they wouldn't cope with that, as if their clients will immediately disclose, as a) it may take years before they do and b) it's so common you can't expect not to help with it. But it's early days so I imagine this will change. I also already do some work with young people, some of who have been abused. Being a bit vague so I don't totally out myself.

On the upside i have met many awesomely compassionate and kind people who want to help others.

Agree with Gralick about earning trust gradually.

Re this:

"Can I ask if anyone has DH or DP do they support you or not. Mine can't seem to understand it and keeps saying 'you only have one mother'.

DH is supportive but other people have said this. I have answered with: so what a shame that she didn't act like one.

Some people are attached to beliefs about family that aren't helpful. How is your DH's relationship with his parents - are they nice or narc?

Meant to say I'm a survivor so people saying they can't handle it is gutting as it makes me feel a bit crap.

No, no one here will judge. There -are- quite a few people out there who have parents who are more destructive than constructive and who have quietly stepped back (or occasoinally not so quietly).

It's a shame there aren't Toxic Parents Anonymous groups around! counselling can help some people a lot but sometimes what you need is simply someone with the same shared experience.

About having it out with the parents - my story for each parent is different, and the one had no impact on the other. Sorry, this is compressed but still quite long.

My father was a proper sadistic psychopath. He did the world a favour by getting killed in a traffic accident but, before then, I'd done some things that altered our relationship. The only time I hit him first, at around 17, was the only time I've delivered a perfect uppercut; it knocked him out. He stopped attacking me physically. After a chain of small victories, achieved by taking a rigidly hard line with him, he seemed to develop a (very weird) kind of respect for me although it was always a power game.

Mum's a different kettle of fish. I saw her as a saintly martyr until my late forties (!) so, in many significant ways, her choices actually had the greater malign influence on my life. I spent a month in intensive MH care and she came to the family therapy days. Her motives were selfish, but the experience started to teach her more about what Dad really was. The counselling team supported me in leading her to understand that I was not the problem. Her perception of me was.

Nonetheless, she tricked me into going to live with her at around 50yo. At the same time, I discovered Mumsnet and was referred to a brilliant NHS therapist. With support from her and Stately Homes, I started the discussion outlined in the OP here. It took weeks & weeks; it was taxing for me and super-distressing for her. I saw her Rage a few times and took mental snapshots, as my mind had blotted out memories of that to maintain the 'Saint Mummy' myth. My psychiatrist arranged help for me to move out (the second time a shrink's intervened to get me away from her!) and SH supported me in setting strict boundaries around her.

We have a different relationship now. In summary, I interact with her preferred persona and she attempts to make amends. Some of her amends, I reject; I accept some. I'm in poor circumstances and need help. But it is always on her (fairly harsh) terms - my choice is whether to accept the terms or not. I'm emotionally detached now, so this no longer hurts me. She knows how I feel about my birth family and her actions. She's in a relationship with a decent man, and for this I'm truly grateful as she deserves some uncomplicated happiness at last - although she does complicate it! Little by little, she's learning how much better the world outside Family Garlic has always been ... so, a millimetre at a time, she gets my message. Sometimes she raises some point about my dad, as I'm the only one she can test her memories with. I am honest.

I would categorically NOT advise everyone else to do this. It's a long-term project requiring me to be my narcissist/histrionic mother's therapist. I undertook it because I was/am stuck with her in physical proximity, because she's elderly, and because I find it easier to detach by stages, in situ. My mental & physical health are fragile and this is a pragmatic compromise. Fortunately, my sibs elected me to speak at Dad's funeral (it was a masterpiece of thinly-veiled contempt, if I say so myself) so one of the others will have to come out with some sugary claptrap at hers.

But I wanted to paint a picture of how it can work out, if you've got reasons to do it and strong support. It's only one picture, of course. They'll all be different. And if you have the support, it does feel good to say your truth.

gralick it sounds like you've had a very long and difficult journey to lead your mother to that point. A rare achievement to manage to balance the relationship so, and I can't imagine just how much hard work it must have taken on your part. And some genuine real love for you from your mother, to keep trying when she's been brought to the point of such rage. Even if she has done a lot of damage too and is only capable of partial understanding.

/respect to you.

Er, thanks! I like to think I've been instrumental in her being able to maintain a more balanced love life in her old age, and am pleased to have her partner in our lives now.

The rest of it was just me making my own life bearable Pages was a great help; she did it with her mum.

Just a little rant really as I don't expect anything to change...

Went to visit DPs yesterday and was there for 2 hours. The whole time I was there DM didn't ask me a single thing about myself - only talked about herself, her news and her week while getting steadily more drunk and then repeating the same stories with added drama.

Sometimes she does ask me things about me - sometimes even asks me first but I feel guilty about spending too much time talking abut my news and assume she must find it boring. I think she does as she usually changes the subject to her.

I don't know why this still upsets me or I even expect anything different after all these years of it but it still gets on my nerves, particularly as I told her how busy we have been recently.

Well, it is disappointing, Hippy, and irritating! If this were a friend or colleague, you'd just give it up and stop spending 2 hours at a time with them.