But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Seo I think you're in a difficult position because you are fully aware of what your MIL is like but nothing really can change until the scales truly fall from your DH's eyes and he gets really fucking angry. He's not there yet if he wants to phone her once a week. He may never be there and that may spell the end of your marriage ultimately.
He has been massively damaged by the dysfunction in their relationship and it is sooo hard to see that and untangle yourself, especially from a parent. I think if I hadn't seen the light (largely through posting here) I would have been divorced if not by now, then at some point. Because patient and kind and lovely as DH is, I don't know if he could have taken my mother gunning for him endlessly and undermining us so spectacularly.
Has your DH read Toxic Parents?

Hi Sharon will come back and read a bit later, but on a quick skim read your mother and grandmother sound fairly typical fare for Stately Homes; manipulative, selfish and dysfunctional. Have you had a look at the links at the beginning of this thread, might help you crystallise things in your head, help those swirling thoughts...

Thanks goodtobetter-will have a look now.yes too many thoughts going around my head right now.

Can anyone recommend a good book to buy to give to a friend still struggling with the legacy of a ( now dead) narc mother. She is in her 70s and I reckon she deserves a few years of emotional freedom.

Thanks Goodtobetter. In Feb, when all the crap came to light, DH read my copy of Toxic Inlaws and it was a lightbulb moment for him. I will order Toxic Parents and some of the other books which were recommended, i.e. Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists, The Drama of the Gifted Child etc.

Actually, what is worrying him now is exemplified by overthbliddyhill's post, immediately above this one. a friend still struggling with the legacy of a ( now dead) narc mother. She is in her 70s and I reckon she deserves a few years of emotional freedom

He says he feels that if he doesn't have contact with her, he will suffer guilt after her death. I wish the scales would fall from his eyes. He knows intellectually that she is awful, but he still yearns for the mother-son connection.

I think he needs some counselling with someone who understands these kinds of relationships.

Hi all!!
Having a very tough time today it's my birthday next week and know what's coming and I'm not looking forward to the disappointment, most years I don't get a present until a few months after my birthday as my mother doesn't have enough money to buy me anything as my sil birthday is 2 days before mine so she has to get her a present first ( my mother's own words) and when i get my present it's a card (if I'm lucky) with £20 or im just handed the money and told she didn't have time to get me a card!! (My father doesn't speak to me hence im not important enough that my birthday is acknowledged me being the black sheep and all) this is just one of many little digs I get and since limiting contact with my family the rare time I see my mother now the digs I get are so hurtful and bad that when she leaves I usually end up crying for hours, I have great bunch of friends and have a family of my own now but still I let my toxic parents get to me and it makes me so mad that I do. It's like since I have stepped back from them and their toxicity and limited contact with them, the times my mother does see me she really has to hurt me with the things she says. Why? She hasn't even ask me why I don't call up anymore!! Sorry bit of a emotional mess found out I'm pregnant with baby no 2 few wees ago hormones all over place

Oh and have not told toxic family my good news know they will only bring me down

Thanks staffiegirl
The reason I don't go nc is because of my daughter who my mother used to mind for me while I worked ( this is before I met my dh and I was a single mom and I was desperate for childcare so I could work and earn money to pay rent etc) she no longer takes care of my daughter and I have limited the time my daughter spends with my toxic family but unfortunately we all live close by and my daughter is still too young for me to explain what is going on, she has a idea something is going on because we no longer go to family functions ( myself and my dh always take her out days the family functions are on to distract her)

Congratulations Goldenrose!
Exciting times!

I'm LC too and have been NC before and am finding this is so much harder for me

I think because when I was NC it followed a big argument whereas the LC is just me having had enough and trying to limit exposure to the negativity

Are you keeping DM in your life as you feel that you owe her for helping out in the past?

Or because you want your own DD to have some sort of relationship with their Grandparents?

I'm an only child and my DM was NC with much of her family as I was growing up so part of me doesn't want to repeat that cycle

I hope you manage to strike a balance if you can

But above all you have a new life on the way and if DM is upsetting you while you're pregnant, she's not doing you any favours

I was NC with DM for last 3 months of pregnancy with DC2 and hard as it was it was one of the best decisions I've ever made

Goldenrose

Congratulations to you on your pg.

I would say to you that if your mother is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with, its the same for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. Your DD already knows that things are not right and she deserves an age appropriate explanation. Low contact in your case is not working out.

sharon I read your post and am v busy atm but wanted to say that that sort of meanness by your mother - you are absolutely right to not go and visit becuase she's starting to pass the meanness down. You've been the 'inadequate' child, the scapegoat and so your child is also the scapegoat. You are absolutely right to protect her. Unfortunately it sounds like the rest of the family are buying into making you the outcast with the comments about 'unwell'. It's very hurtful.

A warning: if you don't play her / their game and let yourself and your child be scapegoated ( don't!!), these rumours and bad stories will increase. Be prepared for that.

It is absolutely the right thing to do to protect your child from this. And yourself, even if you're used to it. Do you have a partner / close trusted friend you can talk to about it?

plan how do deal with your mother, increasing rumours and attempts to get to you fall into place. Planning helps a lot with handling this kind of horrible stuff. Plan and rely on that plan.

Hello goldenrose and congrats !

Hi somer, re this:

"I'm an only child and my DM was NC with much of her family as I was growing up so part of me doesn't want to repeat that cycle"

Would it help to recognise that you aren't the one who has repeated the cycle. DM is responsible, she's the one repeating things, not you.

Hi everyone,

Arrived home from the shop this morning and my mother was standing outside my house after six weeks NC. She asked if we could talk and began to cry when I hesitated so she came in as a colleague lives opposite me (very clever ). I thought well, I've been pushed into this situation so I may as well try and get what I need out of it. I really don't expect anything productive anymore and have no illusions but I'm still going through some of the motions because I don't trust myself and need proof for myself that I did everything I could/nothing can be misconstrued. It's the same reason I've put everything in emails up til now, so I can trust myself. Gaslighting has been very effective throughout my life from both parents and has seriously damaged the way I think.

In the following conversation I tried VERY hard not to have an argument. I made sure everything I said was relevant to attempting to better our communication and explained where we had problems because tbh I couldn't be bothered to have a cyclical argument with no direction. I referenced the past only when trying to explain my thinking behind my actions because it's useless otherwise. When I referenced things in the past she looked shocked, shook her head, 'that NEVER happened' called me sick and twisted that I would make things like that up. I wasn't even referencing her treatment of me, just other things in the family IYSWIM, as in, not even the worst of it as the worst of it wasn't relevant. I spent a lot of time trying to stop her reacting to things I had never said or implied. She spent a lot of time implying I was projecting my issues with my father (years of counselling, NC, it genuinely doesn't affect me on a day to day basis, just simply reacting to another abusive person). When my younger sibling phoned during the conversation and I rejected the call (as I was in a conversation, sibling and I can talk later and support eachother and they would understand) she told me I was unfair as (implied) sibling had been self harming again. 'thats unfair, I'll just wait so you can phone back, x's arms are all cut'. Sibling later told me her arm was cut from an accident and DM witnessed the accident and I believe them. My mum knows x's SH has been awful for me and I've spent a good few nights sitting by their bed. Of course I can't pull her up on this as she only stated a fact, the implication did the rest and she was simply being a good mother concerned that her child was in pain.

It was awful and dysfunctional and abusive and I know she will have gone home and talked about how awful and abusive I was.

Sibling later told me she came into their room, asked if they loved her enough not to leave her, said she was going to focus on herself only from now on, and later had an argument in which she told them she hated them and threatened to throw them out.

I'm not really confused about it at all. I can identify every abusive and toxic thing that she does and understand what it's designed to do like a textbook. I just don't know where to go from here. NC would be good (although very sad obviously as I'm still struggling to believe it's my mother whos like this) but very hard to achieve. Although this is identifying she has recently moved into the same street as my workplace. Dp works in next street along and we live in a small town. I'm scared every time I turn a corner that she will be there.
I'm also hesitatant to go NC as it would give her reason to mark me out as 'the bad guy'. I'm pretty clear and peaceful about how things are on the most part but being perceived as in the wrong and a bad person/mentally unstable is still something I'm struggling with. I'm also struggling to match up my 'happy family future' with one where I'm NC with both parents in my mid-twenties.

Thanks Peppermint
Of course you're right
If DM can do it to me when she knows exactly how it feels it's so much worse
I just need to remember that
I love this thread
It's the first time I've realised that the mother daughter relationship I have with my DM isn't 'normal' and never will be!

Loveheart0

Your mother (she is not worthy of the term) continues to disregard and ignore any boundaries.

She wormed her way into your home today.

NC is really the only option you have going forward because she is never going to listen nor accept any responsibility for her actions. Self preservation is necessary here.

She also moving into the same street as your workplace is also another example of her trying to mark her territory; its a further example of her trying to control you. That move of hers was deliberate. Your mother is perceiving you as the bad person but it is she who is to blame here. Consider too what role you playing out here in your family of origin's dysfunction: you are basically her scapegoat for all her inherent ills. Honestly you need to completely and mentally disengage from them all.

Its not your fault she is the ways she is; you did not cause her to be that way. Her own parents did that lot of damage to her.

Thank you Meerka...I think my own mother was certainly the scapegoat in the family.She was overweight and not a 'beautiful child' and definitely treated very differently from the others.I have seen her try to gain approval or acceptance from her own mother all her life despite the way she was treated.I see a similar pattern in my gran aunts family...one of the daughters is the scapegoat.gran aunt has wonderful relationship with niece who fits the ideal of 'perfect' mother...all very shallow-beautiful,the right clothes,baking,dinner parties,lots of days out with the kids.Her own daughter explained to her how she had felt all these years and now she is being described as mad by the rest of the family.How dare she speak to her own mother this way.Both my own mother and this woman turned to alcohol .Looks were always a big factor...I remember my younger sister being adored by the gran aunts and spoiled because she was a good looking child.My older sister and I were ignored.I could again see the pattern start to repeat itself when my youngest child was being described as beautiful and my older child was not.there is no way I will allow either of my daughters to ever feel less than the other and they will both always be beautiful and strong

Sharon it's not easy being the person who breaks the cycle, but it's totally worth it. It's shocking how blind they are, though, isn't it - I find it hard to get my head around the fact that they could know how it feels, yet still mete it out to the next generation.

Loveheart re where to go from here: all I can say is that you don't have to have all the answers right now. I'm sorry you're struggling and feeling scared. But it isn't always going to feel like this. Adjusting to things as they are now, well that's a big deal in itself.

I don't know if this will help at all, but when I first went NC I was so worried about being perceived as being in the wrong, a bad person, etc, but now I just don't give a shiny shit because I have grown stronger and stronger in my own opinion. I'm sure some/all of my toxic family are out there spreading misinformation about me, but I don't have to listen to it, and my life is infinitely more peaceful for it. It hasn't always been like that, though. I remember feeling walled in, and like I would go completely mad if I tried to go NC, that I was trapped forever and nothing would change.

Turned out the walls were made of cardboard and, when I knocked them over, I discovered a whole big world of peace and freedom. I'm not saying it hasn't been really difficult and painful, but it does get easier.

I'm also struggling to match up my 'happy family future' with one where I'm NC with both parents in my mid-twenties.

I hear you on this. It's something you have to grieve for. It does matter. It is a big deal. It's not fair. Personally I have found that, in time, there has been a shift. To start with, I couldn't think that this was the truth, it was too hard and too painful. Gradually though, I've found actually sort of owning this - allowing myself to see the reality of the situation and say, yes, actually, this is my life, and it hurts - is actually less painful. Because it's acknowledging feelings that I'm having anyway, if that makes sense?

Sorry for the giant essay of a post, but I had a kind of breakthrough yesterday that has floored me a bit. I was thinking about school, and how I had several crushes on boys who ignored me a lot of the time and were sometimes quite horrible to me, and sort of thrived on the tiny crumbs of positive attention that occasionally came my way, and it has dawned on me that this is exactly how my dad treated me most of the time, and I never saw it so clearly before.

I've been NC now (apart from a couple of e mails) since August last year and I still struggle with it sometimes. I still have moments when I think maybe I've been too hard or I just can't quite get my head round the fact that it has happened. But I also just feel like I don't know who she is at all any more. I can't imagine being in contact, it almost scares me a bit and I think that's because deep down I know nothing's changed and that basically she's angry with me and I think a little part of me is still a little girl scared of that anger.
I was talking to Dbro about it when he was here last week and we agreed that we could remember her anger in our childhood and how scary it was, well into adulthood really.
If she's just not in my life I can grow and blossom and be me, the idea of her in it scares me, the weight of her anger, diappointment and bitterness. And she said it herself in her last nutty, blameridden e mail: that I'd broken things and they could never be fixed. But it was like a pp says, you have to break things, you have to smash your way out of the cardboard cage.

please excuse whimsical wafty e mail, been mulling things over recently...

Can really get where people are coming from re; struggling with NC. You're right Pepper, its like a grief. I was LC with my mum for several months (would have said NC but realised was still actually having contact every so often mainly due to my nan's passing in Jan). Following my nans death, I decided to try to attempt a reconciliation with my DM but on meeting up with her face to face I found it so difficult and awkward. I found her to be false and realised she will always play the victim and blame everyone else. Then after that, everytime I had a text from her (often nice texts saying she missed me and the GC's whom she rarely made an effort to see anyway) I felt like shit. Realised I cannot have a relationship with her if I want to maintain reasonable mental health!

I cannot forgive nor forget about what she accused my step-dad of and fact she stayed with him regardless (stated she thought step dad was a paedophile - had suspicions when first got with him but said/did nothing and married, stayed with him for further 10 yrs!!). I don't believe it for a second and think its just malicious lie to in attempt to stop us having anything to do with step dad. She had absolutely no idea the consequences of what she said and to me how that was a blatant example of her putting her own needs (for financial security, a nice house) above safety/needs of her kids/GC's. She even tried to get back with him after disclosing this - that was hohw desperate she was to keep the financial security etc but then met another mug a week later whom could offer her bigger and better!!

Since I've said I don't want contact or for her to see gc's, she's told by db she's now having to go back on her anti-depressant medication due to our conversation! no doubt telling anyone who will listen (not many as fallen out with most of her family and has no friends!) what a bitch of a daughter I am.

Feel element of relief that now NC but can completely relate to others about how difficult it is. Occasionally I just want to ring her, see her and tell her I'm sorry (what for?!) but I think this is in the vain hope that she will be the mum I want her to be - be interested in me. Knowing that won't happen is tough especially as have no relationship or contact with my DF either. It's so hard to keep reminding yourself that it's not you, its them when you feel so shit and unloveable.

Sorry bit of an epic post there. Feeling a bit shit to be honest.

Good there's nothing to excuse.

Worryworker my therapist recently made the point to me that in a way it's worse than a bereavement, because it's so ongoing.

Really sorry you are feeling shit. Please try to be kind to yourself; it can make all the difference.

Atilla Thank you, what you said kept me strong yesterday!

Peppermint Thank you. I really empathise with what you said about going NC as it's something I experienced going NC with my dad years ago. I think through the years though the pain has numbed and I forgot how awful it was. Also I fell back on my mother for support and so it's even more painful and unimaginable this time round. I do feel how you said about grieving, I'm not grieving so much for the mother I thought I had as I was already starting to come to terms with that and have grieved on and off for years, I'm grieving for the good bits I managed to snatch on a day to day basis - her sense of humour and affection and our happy memories. My mum could make me feel loved and like I was amazing more than anyone else - but I suppose that comes with someone having complete control over your feelings!

I was fine all of yesterday and last night I just crumbled. I just thought I would totally go back on everything I said because I could put up with it all if I could have a hug and a mum and a dad. But this morning I just kept going and I suppose that will get easier. And like Worry I do feel relief, my life is just so much easier! Although I feel selfish for saying that.

I think what a PP (I think peppermint) said about Attachment theory is really very strong in me and I spent a lot of time yesterday reading into it and it made me feel much stronger to recognise myself there. I feel a bit sad for me, yes, but I feel heartbroken for the fact that I'm hurting my mother and she's alone.

I actually feel quite happy for me. Today I realised, I can admit how awful my childhood was and how well I've done and not hurt anybody. I can completely own that. It's something I've kept secret forever to everybody because I could never hurt my mum in that way. I'm also finally admitting to myself how damaging gaslighting has been to me and the combination of the two has left me a very unsure person but I suppose it's fine as long as my body is ignoring my brain and keeping NC and acting right in the heat of the moment. Trusting myself in the bigger picture will just come.

Worry I'm sorry you're feeling shit. Please don't pick up the phone and apologise! saying that as someone who also feels the need She won't be the mum you need. Filtering down to you about antidepressants is so manipulative and represents that she won't change - she hasn't managed to get the message to you that she's worried about you, that you might need antidepressants etc. NC and lost her daughter and GC and the message she manages to get through is about herself. Think about your DCs. Every minute you are NC you are protecting them, even in maintaining your own mental health you are protecting them.

Sorry for another massive post! I just collect all my thoughts up for here and try to set them straight.

I think it sucks both ways.

I still, 35 years on, miss my deceased adoptive mother intensely and painfully.

It also hurts like hell that my father makes it so clear that he thinks I am failure, that he wants no contact, that he has given/sold everything away that I loved from my childhood; the years of real unkindness and the disparaging comments have damaged me deeply.

Both options are extremely, sometimes excruciatingly painful.

this is not aimed at anyone here but I remember being told by a 'friend' with abusive parents that I was lucky my mother had died and I had good memories.

It hurts like holy hell and it's a cleaner pain but it's just as deep. I'd give anything to see her again, to talk to her, to be hugged and to hug and to tell her I love her.

That friend was being a tosspot.