But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

In haste

he's a little boy inside and every little boy longs for a mother. for his mother. Plus she's kept him unnaturally, stiflingly close to him for all his life and while stifling, that's what he's used to .. what you're used to is a very powerful force.

So he's got that mother-longing plus he's probably unnerved at the new distance at a very deep level. Plus he's conditioned to believe that to be a good person he MUST be close to his mother.

bit brief maybe but short of time sorry

staff it was my DH that recognised toxicity in my mother too.

soledair >waves< I remember your thread.

I'm very low contact now with my mother; in the early days I felt a tremendous amount of guilt (fog?). However, the longer this has gone the less guilt I feel.

I'm not sure how long your DH has been NC with his mother, but if it is in the early stages then maybe his feeling of guilt is confusing him re: weekly phone calls.

I know I shouldn't care and feel a little silly writing this, but I have been a little upset. Every time there is a birthday within my family, although we are all low contact I do spend time thinking about what gift to buy. It was DH birthday and aside from my DG, he didn't even get a card from my family. This really shouldn't have been a surprise, as when it was my birthday I got a gift card. They are all so passive/agressive.

Please don't flame me....

it does hurt. it's a relatively small thing but it cuts deep doesn't it. It feels silly being so upset about small things but it's a very real hurt

Thank you staff and meerka for your kind words.

You really have made me feel better.

DH is wonderful. He said he didn't want anything from them after their behaviour at the meal and over the last 20 plus years.

Hi Seoladair

I remember you well re your narc MIL.

Re your comment:-
"Well the counsellor did say something about "keeping the family together"

No, no and no again!!!. You basically need to give this counsellor a wide berth as of now, you need to stop seeing this counsellor and find someone instead who has experience in dealing with families who have narcissism at its heart. You need to find someone who has NO bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. I cannot stress that enough.

His mother has conditioned him to serve her; this is why he is going on about the weekly phone calls now. She has done him an awful lot of emotional harm.

Phoenix0x0

Its not you, its them it really is.

You won't get any sort of flaming here and your feelings are perfectly valid.

and from me instead. Am only sorry that it is virtual.

I'm a little concerned that the counsellor has said something about keeping families together too. Especially given the nature of your MIL seo. I am not sure the counsellor knows what she's dealing with.

Wow.

This is the most amazing thread I've ever seen on MN. I'm afraid I'd always scrolled past it wondering why everyone liked stately homes...!

It's been cathartic to read that there are so many others in the same situation. Yet, so sad that there are many of us.

I don't know where to start. I'm in my 30's and only now really beginning to make sense of this abusive relationship with my mother (yet can't believe I'm calling it abusive) which ultimately has been condoned / overlooked by father (who I adore).

I'm a very much an unwanted last child. My sister is the person I think of as mum, yet I can't say anything negative to her about my mother as she had mum as mum. I didn't; I was never good enough - too fat, too thin etc She was never tactile, has never said "I love you", I'm still too fat or too thin. My mother is a beacon of all things right, charity work, letters after her name from the queen etc, and yet still eats nothing during the day then binges and drinks two bottles of wine every night. I live in a different continent and she's ridiculed that from day one. We may be returning to Europe and the only thing that puts me off is being a mere two hour flight from her.

I 'got out' of our last visit home last year with an excuse. My main issue from this is low self esteem and bulimia / anorexia. You wouldn't know it to look at me. I didn't feel I was going to be good enough for her so made excuses. The next trip is hovering in the calendar for next month and I'm already trying to think of a way round it.

I can't go nc, it's just not the done thing in our family. I have the most amazing dh and children, who I smother with love and affection! My overwhelming feeling is one of British stiff upper-lip, get on with it, don't be so foolish. But also, don't eat anything and you'll be thin enough for her to notice you and love you. Which inevitably leads to a binge/purge which causes quite the opposite and the dreadful 'dirty' feeling. I don't want my children to be aware of any of this.

I'm worried that my dh will get bored of this person who can't believe in herself and I don't how I could function without him. He is tremendously supportive in everything I do, however he is the alpha-male / needs to find the cure so we can move on. Something that I must do.

Life goes on, you get one chance, so you have to make the best of it etc. Sometimes, that's just hard to put into action. Apologies for all this self-wallowing garble. If you have overcome these parental issues, how did you do it?!

Thank you for reading so much.

Hi Choppings and welcome to the Stately Home! Not got loads of time but didn't want to read and run.

Just wanted to say that you are not self-wallowing - you have been treated very badly and are starting to come to terms with it. That's not wallowing.

There are lots of things within your story which resonate with me and I am sure will resonate with others here, particularly for me the bit about being a beacon of all things right on one hand and then the not eating during the day / drinking two bottles of wine every night. Being around someone that drunk and out of control as a child was frightening and that would have been bad enough on its own if it wasn't for the spiteful behaviour too.

I have also never been good enough and have always been too fat - never too thin though, regardless of how much I starved myself, even when I was at my lowest weight with a BMI of 17 I was still a little chunky around the thighs.

We are all becoming aware and struggling to overcome our parental issues - some of us are further forward and some of us (like me) are only just starting out.

I have found it really helpful to check out the websites at the beginning of this thread, particularly the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers site. Everyone here is really helpful too and I have had nothing but great support and advice.

Welcome Choppings

You are not wallowing at all.

You are the adult child of a narcissistic family structure; the scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

I see that your mother (who is not worthy of the term) is yet another so called pillar of the community. Its no surprise to me at all that after having a childhood like that yours, you have been left with low self esteem and eating disorders.

Are you having proper help for both the eating disorders and your low self esteem now?. Your DH needs to remain supportive of you with reclaiming your life, he does not have to act like an alpha male.

(My late FIL devoted his life to a particular organisation but that giving attitude did not extend to his family. He really could not give a monkeys about any of them and was just glad to get out of the house. He liked the power and recognition, well adored it actually. He was narcissistic in terms of personality). And do I miss him at all - personally no I do not.

I would also suggest you read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. The book "Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride is another recommendation.

How do your siblings get along with her these days?.

Is your Dad still around, I only ask as he is not mentioned at all.

Going no contact may appear to be very daunting but to write that "its not the done thing" is really no reason at all for not doing that or being able to do that ultimately. That's your fear (along with the obligation and guilt) talking as much as anything else.

welcome, choppings

Please explain these feelings to me, all of you with narc parents. I know in theory that it's natural for him to long for a good relationship with his mother in spite of everything, but in reality I find it hard to understand.

When you've been groomed to accept their treatment your whole life - as your parents are your first social group and your templates for human relationships - it is very difficult and painful to give up hope, to break out of that relationship, to truly admit it's a load of shit. It causes feelings of fear, guilt and obligation. It's hard facing things you've tried to accommodate and deny.

Personally I often wonder what was wrong with me because surely if I wasn't somehow bad or worthless they would have been compelled to treat me properly, wouldn't they? Narc parents leave you feeling like it must surely be your fault. Even if you know it's not, there are doubts deep down.

It takes so much strength and resolve to separate from people to whom you are insecurely attached.

Disclaimer: I am a trainee counsellor.

I find it concerning that this counsellor is imposing their own values on the situation. I would ask them to discuss it in supervision and consider finding someone new.

Choppings, I don't mean to invalidate your feelings but I remember believing I really absolutely couldn't possibly go NC.

Turned out I could, but I had to give myself permission.

peppermint is spot on choppings

My DH has said a very similar thing to me...You can go NC if you give yourself permission.

I also can empathise with your post, I'm the family scapegoat who got told by my mother that she loved me but didn't like me.

PS seola I meant to it's so tough getting your head round it I know but basically it comes from a place much deeper than logic or reason.

Meant to SAY, even

Hi everyone. Like seol , I have no direct experience (I don't think - I might try to explain why I am LC/NC with my family one day) of narcs - but my DP was married to/in a relationship with one for 20 years and his eldest DD (DSD1) who lives with us FT is currently in a horrible game of manipulation by her mother, who seemingly is only interested in her for financial reasons and has long periods of withdrawing all contact until DSD cracks and crawls back.

I find it hard, as seol says, to comprehend why anyone would tolerate that behaviour from a partner - and almost as difficult to see why DSD, who has been indirectly told by her dad, friends, school welfare officer, teachers, counsellors, social workers, mediators, eating disorder specialists and psychologists that her mother is harmful and she should protect herself. Admittedly none of them bar her dad have said "your mother is an abuser, stay away from her". In fact, a lot of them with presumably no knowledge of narcs, tell her to try and have a relationship on her terms. She's 15.

So if there is any sort of lightbulb moment you can share with me as to why people either stay in a relationship or keep trying to have a parent/child relationship, when all they get is abuse and pain, I would be so grateful. It's causing damage to me and DP as I feel his tolerance for anything he doesn't like in me is so low compared to what he endured and went back for all those years. I just don't know why he did and I don't know why she still does. Maybe the fault is with me for not being empathetic enough.

Thank you all, reading your stories is heartbreaking and inspiring in the same measure.

theper I would imagine your DSD tolerates it because she's her mother. Society tells us to love our mothers unconditionally and we do. Even when they are abusive, manipulative and controlling. It's incredibly hard to step back from that relationship when the whole world is saying "you've only got one mother... You should try to make a relationship" and adding to the sense of responsibility, hurt and grief you already feel for your lack of Hallmark relationship and the thought that if you were only good enough, things would be better.

You DSD is probably very conflicted - when I was her age my DM had already NCd me on numerous occasions and it was incredibly hurtful - I was willing to accept our relationship for whatever it was and whatever was available when it was offered back. It takes years to realise it's not your fault when you have spent your life being manipulated by a narc.

ThePer, re this: So if there is any sort of lightbulb moment you can share with me as to why people either stay in a relationship or keep trying to have a parent/child relationship, when all they get is abuse and pain, I would be so grateful.

Very happy and try to help. It is a total mindfuck to get your head around this. First off, I think it's actually really good and healthy that you are asking these questions. They are the right questions! Sometimes people hold onto defensive, idealised views about family, usually because they are in denial about their own family relationships, or they try to minimise things. Oh, they say, but she's her mum...

Your DSD needs people like you in her life. It took me years and years to work out that, actually, the way my parents behaved was not okay, as everyone else seemed to think it was okay. It is not your fault that your DSD tolerates it; it is indeed because she's her mother and has always been her mother. She didn't get to have normal emotional relationships before this one happened.

Have you heard of attachment theory? I think you might find it helpful to read up on this. It was pioneered by someone called John Bowlby (apologies if you have heard of this already). Babies who get 'good-enough' care from their parents are securely attached and this affects how they go on to experience the rest of the world and their relationships in it.

If your parents don't take good-enough care of you, you'll develop an insecure attachment style. If your parents are abusive, you are left with a complete mindfuck: the person you rely on for your very survival, who you must compel to take care of you, is a threat to your existence and is frightening or hurting you or not meeting your needs.

To survive, children blame themselves. They are the bad ones, not their parents. And attachment is a very, very powerful biological process. We are engineered to try to compel our caregivers to meet our needs and, if they don't, to adjust to whatever the situation is. Insecure attachment can cause a child to react seemingly illogically to someone who is abusing them, e.g. to cling onto them more. It is the reason why children who have been treated badly enough to warrant removal into foster care would still choose to stay with their parents.

I remember asking my therapist: is it my fault because I didn't tell, I didn't ask to go into foster care? And he said, no, that's how attachment works.

By the time you grow up and start to realise that actually your parent is abusive, you're already attached, and there isn't space within the attachment for the knowledge that they are abusive, so it's very, very hard to untangle yourself from it.

All children love their parents. Even if, consciously, they hate or fear them. They are born with the biological imperative to do so. It is hard to unlove your mother. It is hard to break the attachment. I'm not remotely surprised your DSD keeps going back to her mum, sadly.

Thank you both for your replies. I'm going to look up attachment theory now - have been digging into NPD and other PDs - it's a very complex set of emotions and circumstances. Thanks again.

Thanks for all this. I have been reading up on attachment theory today and have forwarded some links to DH. It all makes sense, and also helps me to make more sense of DH's behaviour. He has said himself he realised he hadn't emotionally connected to me on a deep enough level, which enabled him to do some not very wonderful or uxorious things when his mother demanded he prioritise her...

He has an anxiety disorder, as well as attachment issues, all thanks to his NPD mother, I believe.

I found these links interesting...

www.psychalive.org/how-your-attachment-style-impacts-your-relationship

psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-change-your-attachment-style/00020379

I'm feeling pretty emotional (happy!) and maybe a few beers helped but I want to thank everyone on here and empathise with you all. I don't give much advice here, I'm rubbish at it, but have taken so much even in the way of not feeling alone or strange.

We should all adopt each other

Re the counsellor wanting to keep the family together:

I think he was pursuing that line because he knew DH wanted more contact with his mother, and he wanted to initiate a conversation between DH and I about what was actually acceptable to me. It has worked, in that DH now knows very clearly that if he allows his mother in again regularly then I will be unable to stay in our marriage. He is being very accepting of this (on the surface).

DH said, and I agree, that he would rather tell me about wanting more contact with his mother, than do it behind my back. He also told me something new. MIL apparently hated her own MIL, so FIL used to go to see his mum secretly. It seems MIL has fallen out badly with everyone in her life. DH was the last man standing, but even he has seen through her now. And yet she still seems to think she is perfect!

Back to the counsellor:
He has written a good and perceptive article about the harm done by mother enmeshment. So I imagine he does have good insight into the situation.

The other thing is that he says his area is marital counselling, but he thinks DH should get a male therapist to help him with his anxiety issues. So we can find someone who specialises in helping children of narcissistic personality disordered mothers.

Hi all...I was just wondering if I could have some opinions on some relationships in my family please.I'm not sure if I'm in the right place...My family would be 'well respected' in the community-no shortage of money and would be well known.As far as I could see there were always problems in my family.My mother didn't show any love or affection and her answer for this was...well my mother didn't show me any love.All of us suffered from low self esteem,anxiety and depression.My mother was sexually abused by a close family friend but could never tell because of her relationship with her mother.She was very cold and very hard on her but no one from the outside looking in would have known this.she wasn't like this with the younger children.She was the oldest and I'm thinking now that maybe she was the scapegoat.she was sent off to a foreign country when she was perhaps 12 to babysit cousins for the summer.She had a miserable time and was treated v badly by the mother...who had a reputation for being cruel-her own mother would have been well aware of this so I don't understand how a mother could do this.Now I have my own children and my grandmother has started to make some mean comments when others are not around...e.g when I told her I was expecting my second child she said 'oh lovely' very sarcastically.end of conversation.she described my child as emotionally immature and said its 'her hair that makes her'.I didn't visit with my child again as I didn't like the comments she made.She would shout at her when the kids were playing together and there were arguments.My child was not at fault and she wouldn't have even known what was going on...it was as if she wanted to be mean to her.I visited recently...hadn't been in a while as am very busy with work and children.She wanted to know why I hadn't visited...how was my form these days...she wondered had I ' not been well'.I had gone to my family looking for some support when I was having relationship difficulties and realise now that this was a mistake as now I am being seen as 'unwell'.My other siblings have no contact with either my mother or grandmother or aunts and uncles.