But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Lolamon

Unfortunately moving many miles away does not stop the narcissistic mother. They are that bloody persistent honestly. Mental distance as well as physical distance is necessary now to implement.

Have you read the Daughters of narcissistic mothers website?.

Have you ever seen a therapist regarding your narcissistic mother as well?. May also be worth doing now if you have not.

Not all that surprised to read that she is now with someone who is as narcissistic as she is (the horror). Narcissistic women cannot do relationships so the man is either as narcissistic as she is or is long gone because he cannot cope with her any longer.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and I would keep her well away from your own family unit, particularly your child because although her methods used on him will be different, the damage done will be very much the same. The best thing you can do for yourself and your own family unit ultimately is to go no contact with her due to the sheer amount of damage such people leave in their wake.

Yes that website really opened my eyes it explained my feelings and how I see myself. Showed it to my friends and they were like woah!

I want to go very very limited contact I barely ever contact her now speak to my lovely step dad lots but not her. I did manage to go non contact for a good 6 months before I had the dc. She's a good nanny spoils them rotten but she's never had them over night I won't allow it even if she bothered to offer.

I feel like everything is making sense now that I'm not a crazy weirdo and keep remembering events from my childhood and thinking actually that wasn't my fault. I've been in tears on and off for days because I don't want to see her feel incredibly guilty that I feel like that.

Major head fuck! I've had some counselling which helped but I do need to go back and request some more agreed.

Thanks for the support I'm glad i found this thread

Hi Lolamon,

It is not your fault your mother is the ways she is; you did not cause her to act like that. Her own family of origin (BTW what if anything do you know about her childhood, that often gives clues) did that to her.

She feels no guilt honestly, these people are incapable of feeling empathy or guilt. She will likely still deny it all or blame you for what happened at her hands to you.

You're the one who feels guilty here and you certainly carry around the FOG in spades (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to her. I would definitely restart counselling when you are able to.

She is unfortunately NOT a good nanny; narcissists in particular make out for being deplorably bad grandparent figures and the damage done to your children will also happen right in front of you. It will be different to what she did (and still does ) to you but it will be damage all the same and she won't give a toss. Narcissists tend to under value or over value the relationships with their grandchildren whom they also see as narcissistic supply. Do not let your most precious resource, i.e. your child, fall further into her clutches.

I don't know what to believe with regards her childhood she's a massive fantasist so stuff she says happens doesn't. Her family have been nc since I was little I'm in my twenties now so a long time. Our family are either dead or hate each other. It was very dysfunctional growing up.

She will deny or disregard my feelings I've had several arguements with her regarding my step dad. But then act like nothing has happened. She doesn't respect my boundaries and treats me as her parent. I've known way to much about her personal life from a very young age for example.

You're right with being a bad gp she treats them like golden children and overly spoils them and ignores me if I say no don't do that to the kids and actively encourages the exact opposite to my parenting style.

We live very far away now so the Dcs are not in close contact at all. We haven't seen her since Xmas day which was horrific for me as she was rude and criticised my clothes and weight.

I just need to get through this visit and I don't know how. I'm simply not strong enough right now :( my husband will be here but honestly right now I wish I'd come down with horrendous food poisoning so the visit has to be cancelled :/

Lolamon I can sympathise so much with the first couple of paragraphs from your last post.

I want to know how it is possible to know if someone is telling the truth when the lies just trip off of the tongue most of the time?

And how can a person reconcile their feelings of cynicism over the claims of childhood trauma with the guilt of not 100% believing what might actually be the truth?! It's so hard.

It throws all sorts of things into the mix. If there are lies about things all the time, what are the genuine feelings and emotions?

Did I hurt the persons feelings or can they just turn on the waterworks at will?

Are they crying because I have said no and they are hurt, or because they are not getting their own way?

Is this show of emotion a genuine show of emotion of just for attention / because that's what people should be doing to show they are a good person?

It's so confusing... I wish I knew the answers!

I think these are the things I struggle with the most tbh, this and whether or not the behaviour of my DPs is intentional or whether they genuinely can't help it.

I think if they can't help it, it would be easier to deal with and that's what I believe at the moment. If they can help it and choose to behave this way deliberately then I would be completely heartbroken.

Hippymama

They know that you are hurt but they do not feel your hurt.

Unfortunately also for my DH I came to the conclusion that his brother is a narcissist long before he did (I did try and tell him but he would not readily listen) so I wondered about this at the time. I found this excerpt to be most helpful:-

This is from Lightshouse:-

"Narcissists do know wrong from right. If they didn't, they wouldn't hide their unfair actions like they frequently do. If you ask narcissists whether it's fair play to cut someone off in traffic or take credit for someone else's work, they'll easily be able to tell you it's not right. And if they do either of those things, they will attempt to hide the fact that they've done it. This is because they do know it's wrong, and they don't want to lose the admiration and respect of others who will think less of them for having done so.

However, the diagnosis of pathological narcissism involves the presence of insufficient empathy. Even though narcissists do know hurting someone's feelings is wrong, they still aren't capable of really empathizing very much with (and therefore, caring about) the person being hurt.

So when narcissists need an ego fix, they do what they know is wrong (like putting someone down), largely because they lack the empathy that should stop them. Then, because they are aware that what they did is wrong and that people will think less of them for it, they cover it up so they won't have to pay the consequences. (Narcissists don't like consequences. Those are for little people.)

So narcissists will do insensitive things to get their narcissistic supply, because they both want it so badly and because there's no empathy to make them feel for the people they're being unkind to. Then, because they are aware it's wrong and that it makes them wrong, they cover it up and (perhaps sometimes unconsciously) deny it, gaslighting and projecting their way out of responsibility so that nobody, including themselves, will see them as imperfect for having done it. (And if you see them as imperfect, then you're a serious problem, because as long as you're there to remind them they're not perfect, they'll have to think about the concept, and they just plain won't.)

So...
Do narcissists know they hurt you?

They know you're hurt, but they don't feel your hurt.

Do narcissists know what they're doing is wrong?

They know what wrong is, and they may do it, but they cannot accept the concept of being a person who does anything wrong, because that means they're not superior and perfect. So narcissists vehemently push away the information that they've done something hurtful. They do know what a hurtful act is, and yet they have to deny that they did it.

Narcissists use a number of different ways to deny their hurtful actions (and to try making you deny it along with them so you'll stop complaining). Blaming others, gaslighting, labeling someone who complains about them cruel, lying, making excuses and playing the martyr are a narcissist's typical responses. Whatever it takes to stop all recognition (by them and you) of the fact that they were inconsiderate can be expected.

So yes, narcissists are aware that they've hurt your feelings and that it's wrong, but they just cannot accept that knowledge. They deny it to prevent narcissistic injury, and desperately want you to deny it as well. And usually, they deny it so quickly and so habitually that it doesn't even register in their consciousness before the excuses and protests are given out.

Typically, when told they've hurt your feelings, a narcissist's denial takes the forms of insisting you're not hurt, or that you shouldn't be hurt, that you're wrong to be hurt, that they didn't hurt you, that you're too easily hurt, and that you shouldn't complain because they're hurt worse.

More Here: www.lightshouse.org/do-narcissists-know-what-they-do.html#ixzz3XwMTL5kz

Lolamon

Has this woman actually arrived yet?. If not I would have no compunction about now declaring an onset of severe food poisoning and cancelling her visit. Infact I would tell her that she is no longer welcome within your home and she will now have to find alternative accommodation.

How long is she supposed to stay for as well, did she invite herself for a week?.

You simply cannot let your children be exposed any longer to her emotional manipulation and toxic behaviours. Enough is enough, you cannot afford to be yourself so manipulated and tied up in knots any more.

More family drama. It just runs in some families doesn't it? Nothing can be normal or easy, it all has to have a drama.

At least this one I can sit on the sidelines. I feel sorry for the people who have to deal with the unreasonable one but all I stand to loose is money and frankly that's a small loss compared to being out of the firing line.

That lighthouse article is spot on! Hippie that's exactly how I feel I don't know whether anyone is genuine I'm constantly on high alert! I've got to the point now I have two very very dear friends who have been incredibly patient friends who accept my endless apologies and fear with love and understanding.

Attilla, she doesn't arrive for another few weeks yet she's staying in a hotel with new boyfriend. There's not enough room here plus she won't slum it on a blow up like everyone else.

Several other things and I apologise for drip feeding my head is all over the place atm!

She uses her health as a bullying tactic like shell deliberately stop eating or not take medication for a health condition.
She'll also threaten suicide if I ever dare to say I'm not happy with her behaviour. She's done this my whole life the threat of suicide used to scare me no end as a little kid. Is this another trait of narcissism?
Again sorry for the endless drip and questions.

I think if I continue to feel worse and worse I will make an excuse. I haven't even told the dc yet. I feel incredibly guilty like I'm a vile daughter for feeling this way.

lolamon if you feel you don't want to see your mother and if you feel worse and worse at the prospect of seeing her - there's a reason for it.

People, even or especially children, respond to how they are treated. Treat someone nicely, they'll appreciate it and feel warmly towards you. Treat them badly - the opposite.

We're pre-programmed to love our parents because we need them. our very survival depends on them and we are powerless. But if they behave badly enough that love can be strangled and wither and die. That's not OUR doing. That's because we respond to how we are treated.

Your mother gave birth to you. That does not give her the right to treat you like dirt - ever. If she does, your feelings towards her will slowly change.

That's normal and it's healthy. The guilt may well come from that left over unnurtured child, who won't have gone away. She might be buried deep but we don't ever really leave our child behind. They become at the core of us and we grow bigger and more capable and more complex, but you have to grow outwards from the child at the core. You can't just dump her. The child's feelings don't go.

But in practical terms you are quite reasonable to find an excuse to cancel. Parents shouldnt make you feel like shit and leave you nose diving into a depressed flat panic.

Thank you Attila...

What do you think about the feelings of the narc? Am I genuinely hurting their feelings by not doing what they want me to do or is any show of emotion just that - a show?

Sometimes I think that a lot of the emotion is for effect - convenient tears when they think they should be shed or for attention, overt emotional displays and vampirism etc but then I wonder if it is really really for effect? Maybe it is real for them?

I am cynical about it and hate myself for being this way but it is really difficult to tell whether I am being manipulated into doing what they want with some crocodile tears or whether these tears are of genuine distress and I am being cold and heartless.

Meerka I am sorry to see that drama has found you... Hoping you can stay out of it and away from it as much as possible!

Thank you meerka I think that's very true! I feel like I do when I was little and a teen. It's been a horrible intense few months dealing with the legacy and continued emotional abuse.

Going to speak to dh and formulate a plan to try and resolve this quickly. I may even be a chicken shit and get him to deal with it mostly (he's offered tbf)

Just don't want the endless suicide threats,you are evil selfish etc to happen but I know they will. I'm exhausted by how I feel. I we functioning to the best of my ability before I was beginning to enjoy and trust people and now I'm at square one again.

I hate that I couldn't had a normal childhood. I hate that I had to be a parent and I hate that she can't see or will ever see how much she's destroyed me.

hippy i think the tears can be both real distress and for effect.

I think most toxic people are not, in the final analysis, happy in their own skins. They do experience distress - but they come first, second, third, fourth and fifth in their worlds. So 1) the distress might be because they are hurt, but that's like being hurt becuase they've hit you in the stomach and then you pushed back. Not even hit back. just pushed.

And 2) the distress might be real but they have very much learned to use it. It's hard for people to walk way from or stand strong in the face of someone in tears because our instincts are to help - and toxic people know that. So they use it.

Some people manipulate becuase they are selfish and can get what they want that way. Some people manipulate because their (reasonable) needs were not met when they were young and it was they only way they could get what they needed and wanted ... and then they forgot how to stop.

Am I genuinely hurting their feelings by not doing what they want me to do or is any show of emotion just that - a show?

I think its all done for effect. They do feel hurt but they are not concerned about your own hurt.

This from halcyon:-

(I can certainly attest to this as well)

"Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that".

"Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check".

(this last sentence is certainly true of my MIL).

Lolamon

Enlist the help of your H to stop your mother and her gruesome boyfriend from coming to descend on you all.

If your mother threatens to commit suicide again, refer her to the authorities and let them deal with her. Its just another means of controlling you by manipulation. Do not keep giving into her demands, that just seals your fate.

gruesome is him to a t!

Will read messages later on school run arm!

Thank you so much for your support I've felt Mega alone for so long.

Agreed on the suicide threats. they really are the lowest form of manipulation (make me very cross indeed).

Im afraid one does have to find ways to deal with them because otherwise she can use them to ru(i)n your life.

Mine caught me on the phone tonight. I was at the end of a migraine so a bit woozy still. She asked what I'd done at the weekend, I couldn't remember so she assumed it was very boring. She then goes on about her dog, it's got lumps and she's already signed it off as dying. This dog will probably outlive me. Her ndn is still gravely ill - he's not going to make it...My DB (golden child) hasn't been in touch so she's very worried - his wife (she was the ow and hated but as she's American she's loved now) has a few minor health problems so in DMs head it's all severe. In reality they've been on holiday. I didn't tell her that though!

So 7 minutes of death and misery but as she says 'I'm being very positive' (about dog). Is she fuck. Misery and death upon grief and wallowing. She thinks I'm miserable, DP thinks I'm the funniest person he's ever known! She just brings me down. The good news is that I was worried about my wedding and what to do about her, if the dog holds on (which it will) then she won't want to leave it alone will she? Fingers crossed..

Oh I've got another hospital appointment this weekend and hoping next week for a diagnosis (unrelated) for a health issue. She doesn't know any of this. I refuse to feed her happiness of living with misery.

for all you stately home threaders old and new.

Haven't been on here for a while and since I last posted I have (mistakenly) met up with my DM. I suppose after by nan died (my mums mum) I felt I had to try to sort things out with her and begin to build up our relationship again. However, although the meeting went well in that she was civil and did say sorry, that she loved and missed me, I did not feel that it was sincere. generally just found the whole meet up awkward and false - it didn't feel like it was my mum sitting there. Since, she's text and initially I texted back probably out of politeness (and poss also coz didn't want to upset her by not responding!) but then had a word with myself and thought 'what am I doing?'. I was feeling pressured to get our relationship back on track but realised that wasn't what I wanted and any contact from her just made me feel shit. I cannot get over the accusation she made about my step dad (she thought he was paedophile - but stayed with him anyway!!) despite all the other crap I have had to put up with during childhood and adult years.

I have to accept she ain't ever gonna change. She been wanting to see her gc's again but its too late - she never put the time and effort in before and they never mention her!

Have text dm to say won't be meeting up again, that I can't forgive and forget and feel relief having done that. Starting to listen to my feelings which is a strange new concept for me!

Hello, this is my first time on the Stately Homes thread, but I am a veteran of MN Relationships board, (due to my narc MIL) and I see some familiar names on this thread. [waves]

DH is feeling the need to phone or see his mother. At counselling the other day, he was talking about the possibility of a weekly phone call to her.

I can't bear the idea of her resuming her long lens view into our marriage. DH says he wants low contact, but a weekly phone call is hardly LC.

When he saw how upset I was, he reiterated he wanted low contact, and said it doesn't have to be every week, he just wants to feel he can phone her from time to time, and he didn't mean it had to be every week. But he said it!

I asked if he is not angry with her for her attempts to destroy our marriage. (some of you may remember a horrible situation with MIL commandeering DH's writing of his own will - now rectified thank god.)

He said he is angry, and wishes he had a normal mother. But he still feels the pull of the family. He did awful things under the influence of that toxic woman, and he recognises the extent of her malign influence on him.

he is suffering from an anxiety disorder. I recently discovered the details of it, and am helping him to realise that the thing he is worrying about is not real. He has accepted that he has anxiety, and, probably rightly, says that as an anxiety-prone person, going NC will probably make him suffer appalling guilt.

I have read posts from many people who have gone NC of their own volition when they realise they have a narc parent. DH is only LC/verging on NC because of me. So I am scared that she will worm her way back into our lives, and in particular manipulate my little girl against me.

Hi seoladair, I reckon your DH is craving contact with a mother rather than his mother, but she'll have to do. Except she won't do, really, as you know.

He has accepted that he has anxiety, and, probably rightly, says that as an anxiety-prone person, going NC will probably make him suffer appalling guilt.

He may feel guilty at first but not forever as he will have the space to feel other things. He may feel differently to how he expects. He can't predict the future so right now this is a fantasy that's keeping him in the relationship.

My therapist would say: whose voice is that?

"You'll feel terrible if you don't talk to her." That would be his mum in his head...

your DH is craving contact with a mother rather than his mother

Yes, true. But he is aware of that, and aware of how awful she is. In spite of it all, he doesn't have the strength to cut himself off fully. I have sympathy for him, but he is asking me when he can call her. So he's absolving himself of responsibility. i don't want to be his keeper, to have to make that decision for him.

Hi seol. Have you both discussed this with the councellor?

He needs to be able talk through why he desires the contact, what type of contact he wants and what result he hopes for.

And you need to be able to say exactly what you feel and also, if he insists, you can set your boundaries. She can't talk to dd, he can not give her any personal information about either dd or you. He can not complain about you. He can not talk about family finances or decisions.

All of this should be done with the councellor present to ensure you are both heard.

Well the counsellor did say something about "keeping the family together".

But I can't even contemplate letting her back in. When I talk about her I start to shake. The stress has given me psoriasis (I thought it was eczema but doctor says psoriasis.) I have had stress headaches, and I developed unexplained rib pain last week. (Doctor was a bit worried about this, and said he would send me for tests if it didn't improve. But it's getting better, so he is putting that down to stress too.)

DH knows all this, and knows what a poisonous woman she is, but he still seems to long for contact.

Please explain these feelings to me, all of you with narc parents. I know in theory that it's natural for him to long for a good relationship with his mother in spite of everything, but in reality I find it hard to understand.